Jonathan Martin

[Beerball]

but for who? Should Martin be penalized? In my opinion yes because he abandoned his team, partook in the mess and is guilty as well. So if you punish Martin then why would the next "victim" want to come forward?

What is Martin's punishable offense? He walked away from his team, but what else? If you point to the back and forth with teammates I'll point to his communication with his parents. He felt like he had to participate. Finally, he had enough.

[C.Biscuit97]

Just guessing here, based on my time I spent in inner-cities, I'd assume NFL lockerooms would rather have RI than Martin. Snitches aren't respected in the hood.

 

Personally, I don't want either one.

 

Lockerrooms are the inner city now? Guys like Pouncey, RI, & McKinnie are complete idiots. I've said it several times but with Kyle Williams, Fred Jackson, & Eric Wood, that stuff doesn't happen here. I would guess most teams are a less inner city than you seem to think.

 

Miami had a disfunctional lockerroom that started the second they named that scumbag RI a captain.

[papazoid]

 

 

a piece that makes it especially bad on the NFL side is that hes a drafted player with no choice where he ends up for several years.

 

Martin can NOT go back to Miami. if the Dolphins were smart, they would pay off the remainder of Martin's contract and let him become a UFA.

Edited February 17, 2014 by papazoid

[NoSaint]

 

 

Martin can NOT go back to Miami. if the Dolphins were smart, they would pay off the remaining of Martin's contract and let him become a UFA.

 

 

a real wildcard would be the nfl forcing the buy out of his contract as he wasnt given a suitable workplace. would open all kinds of doors so it likely wont happen, but i imagine the dolphins will be strongly nudged to do so... frankly, they dont need or want the split in the locker room anyway id guess.

[C.Biscuit97]

Someone made a point that the Fins might be the favorites to draft Michael Sam. Good PR for a team that badly needs it.

[Justice]

 

 

Lockerrooms are the inner city now? Guys like Pouncey, RI, & McKinnie are complete idiots. I've said it several times but with Kyle Williams, Fred Jackson, & Eric Wood, that stuff doesn't happen here. I would guess most teams are a less inner city than you seem to think.

 

Miami had a disfunctional lockerroom that started the second they named that scumbag RI a captain.

 

Most players are from the inner city. It's not hard to tell. Just listen to the interviews.

[boyst]

What is Martin's punishable offense? He walked away from his team, but what else? If you point to the back and forth with teammates I'll point to his communication with his parents. He felt like he had to participate. Finally, he had enough.

I do not fully agree on this. It just doesn't have a good excuse for such poor behavior if he was so offendef by it. To each their own - Martin and Incognito both should have actedmore appropriately .

 

Also that Martin looks so poorly from the outside and inside by players. This whole story is just bizzare.

 

And the perspective I am trying to use is his teammates both past and future. I think many will continue to place blame on hjn

Edited February 17, 2014 by jboyst62

[RuntheDamnBall]

I think anyone who has any real experience with depression knows better than to belittle this. Again, it might be a situation that is untenable for most NFL players to deal with -- even Ricky Williams, who had some real elite play during his career, had trouble coping. The comments about "running to his parents," "ambulance-chasing parents" etc are especially troubling to me. If my kid were suffering like this - even and perhaps especially in their mid-20s which is a high-risk age for suicide - I would want to know and to help.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

Most players are from the inner city. It's not hard to tell. Just listen to the interviews.

 

Eh, there are plenty of well spoken players. And it's not like these guys are going straight from Compton. They stopping at places like Stanford. Though Stanford has a strictly no snitching policy.

 

A separate point. Bullying is everywhere but I don't think typical bullying is as big in the inner city as it is in the suburbs.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I do not fully agree on this. It just doesn't have a good excuse for such poor behavior if he was so offendef by it. To each their own - Martin and Incognito both should have actedmore appropriately .

 

Also that Martin looks so poorly from the outside and inside by players. This whole story is just bizzare

He looks poorly because of the "code" instilled in the locker room from the top down by coaches like Turner and designated team leaders like Incognito. Groupthink is a real phenomenon. Also, trying and failing to fit in in a scenario where millions of dollars are on the line is not unheard of, either.

 

The kid really didn't think he had a place to turn to. I am not going to say I think he handled it in the best way but seriously, the team was communicating a message to him from the get-go by charging Incognito with the mission to "toughen him up." If you don't think that it would be tough to decide to report abuse to your superiors with that structure in place, that's fairly naïve. I understand why he walked away from it.

 

For whomever posted what Schlereth had to say on the matter, thank you. That is what a real locker room code is about. It was by far the most elegant statement I have read on all of this business.

[yungmack]

Most players are from the inner city. It's not hard to tell. Just listen to the interviews.

No they're not. Unless by inner city you mean anywhere a large number of black people live, including suburbs and more rural areas of the south.

[TXBILLSFAN]

The report is clear that the psychological aspects of being bullied made it next to impossible for Martin to escalate issue or fight back. With respect to Martin, I think the issue or question is not whether or not he was bullied, HE WAS, or whether or not his weaker mental makeup made it possible, IT DID. The question is what place in the NFL is there for someone with that mental makeup. I for one, think he could thrive in the vast majority of locker rooms and that the Dolphins situation is not mainstream NFL. There is a BIG difference between laughing with someone, poking fun, horsing around and bullying. It's tough to legislate and that will be the challenge for the NFL. Tebow getting a funny haircut, carrying vets equipment, singing college fight songs are common place and NO ONE is suggesting these are forms of bullying. I think the use of appropriate language and difference between an off-color joke and bullying are more difficult to define, but I believe strongly that it's possible to articulate a set of guidelines and codes of conduct that will be clear to all players and prevent this type of things from happening again. As for RI, JJ, MP and coach/trainer involved, as I've said before, I'd be shocked if they are a part of the Dolphin organization next year.

[NoSaint]

The report is clear that the psychological aspects of being bullied made it next to impossible for Martin to escalate issue or fight back. With respect to Martin, I think the issue or question is not whether or not he was bullied, HE WAS, or whether or not his weaker mental makeup made it possible, IT DID. The question is what place in the NFL is there for someone with that mental makeup. I for one, think he could thrive in the vast majority of locker rooms and that the Dolphins situation is not mainstream NFL. There is a BIG difference between laughing with someone, poking fun, horsing around and bullying. It's tough to legislate and that will be the challenge for the NFL. Tebow getting a funny haircut, carrying vets equipment, singing college fight songs are common place and NO ONE is suggesting these are forms of bullying. I think the use of appropriate language and difference between an off-color joke and bullying are more difficult to define, but I believe strongly that it's possible to articulate a set of guidelines and codes of conduct that will be clear to all players and prevent this type of things from happening again. As for RI, JJ, MP and coach/trainer involved, as I've said before, I'd be shocked if they are a part of the Dolphin organization next year.

 

its a struggle - in its own way its like joining a fraternity and youve seen the issues with that with regards to hazing, and what should constitute hazing vs boys will be boys being a part of bonding. the nfl has already started moving away from that culture after some unfortunate incidents - this will simply continue to accelerate that move.... we have seen coaches speak out against the rookie hazing before and institute zero tolerance policies.

 

where they end up is a tricky one to define but where they were isnt ok. its often easy to point out when its crossed the line in extreme cases, but defining where the line actually exists is much tougher from a strict policy standpoint unless you go EXTREMELY strict, zero tolerance of ANYTHING which can cause problems too.

Edited February 17, 2014 by NoSaint

[TXBILLSFAN]

its a struggle - in its own way its like joining a fraternity and youve seen the issues with that with regards to hazing, and what should constitute hazing vs boys will be boys being a part of bonding. the nfl has already started moving away from that culture after some unfortunate incidents - this will simply continue to accelerate that move.... we have seen coaches speak out against the rookie hazing before and institute zero tolerance policies.

 

where they end up is a tricky one to define but where they were isnt ok. its often easy to point out when its crossed the line in extreme cases, but defining where the line actually exists is much tougher from a strict policy standpoint unless you go EXTREMELY strict, zero tolerance of ANYTHING which can cause problems too.

The fraternity example is a good one and most frats have been successful at reducing or eliminating hazing on campuses for frats to remain official chapters of national organizations -- I've posted this before, but want to repeat it again, what troubles me about the mental makeup of RI, JJ and MP is that what they were doing to JM (and the other lineman and trainer) did NOT create a stronger team it created a weaker one. And, while they will argue that they had "no idea" of what they were doing, I really doubt that, as did Ted Wells in the report. Bullies know they are bullying people, the comment RI made about JM being "his B word" is a clear indication of that.

[Mr. WEO]

Lockerrooms are the inner city now? Guys like Pouncey, RI, & McKinnie are complete idiots. I've said it several times but with Kyle Williams, Fred Jackson, & Eric Wood, that stuff doesn't happen here. I would guess most teams are a less inner city than you seem to think.

 

Miami had a disfunctional lockerroom that started the second they named that scumbag RI a captain.

 

No one knows what happens in nthe locker room. I'm confident that the Bills locker room is not as toxic as Miami's but who knows what Martin will tolerate. Sounds like not much--see below.

 

I think anyone who has any real experience with depression knows better than to belittle this. Again, it might be a situation that is untenable for most NFL players to deal with -- even Ricky Williams, who had some real elite play during his career, had trouble coping. The comments about "running to his parents," "ambulance-chasing parents" etc are especially troubling to me. If my kid were suffering like this - even and perhaps especially in their mid-20s which is a high-risk age for suicide - I would want to know and to help.

 

When JM reached out to his father, the fahter's first response was, essentially..."toughen up, pop the guy back." Not different from what you and others are criticizing some here for saying.

 

It is clear that this kid had significant problems way before he was drafted into the NFL. In fact, he blamed "soft schools" for his problems. He says he was bullied in high school all the time by kids half his size. He continued to struggle at Stanford. Yet, despite knowing all of this, his dad's first impulse was to tell him to fight back.

 

Only well after he joined the Fins did his parents, and the Dolphins organization, encouraged him to seek pychiatric intervention for depression. He did, but he says it didn't do him any good.

 

I'm not sure how anyone who read this report can say that, given his near lifetime of feelings of inadequacy, persecution and poorly treated depression, he belongs on an NFL roster. In fact, his parents would be crazy to encourage this kid to continue doing something that will always put him in danger. If his parents' true, sole interest at this point is his well being, they will yank him from the public stage he now occupies and let him live his life peacefully in a much less threatening atmosphere.

 

The report is clear that the psychological aspects of being bullied made it next to impossible for Martin to escalate issue or fight back. With respect to Martin, I think the issue or question is not whether or not he was bullied, HE WAS, or whether or not his weaker mental makeup made it possible, IT DID. The question is what place in the NFL is there for someone with that mental makeup. I for one, think he could thrive in the vast majority of locker rooms and that the Dolphins situation is not mainstream NFL. There is a BIG difference between laughing with someone, poking fun, horsing around and bullying. It's tough to legislate and that will be the challenge for the NFL. Tebow getting a funny haircut, carrying vets equipment, singing college fight songs are common place and NO ONE is suggesting these are forms of bullying. I think the use of appropriate language and difference between an off-color joke and bullying are more difficult to define, but I believe strongly that it's possible to articulate a set of guidelines and codes of conduct that will be clear to all players and prevent this type of things from happening again. As for RI, JJ, MP and coach/trainer involved, as I've said before, I'd be shocked if they are a part of the Dolphin organization next year.

 

The bolded is a difficult claim to make--unless you were convinced before this whole story broke that the Dolphins locker room in particular was outside the mainstream. I'm betting you didn't. Also, his teammates voted RI captain. Even now, there is not much dissent in that locker room re: what went down.

[RuntheDamnBall]

No one knows what happens in nthe locker room. I'm confident that the Bills locker room is not as toxic as Miami's but who knows what Martin will tolerate. Sounds like not much--see below.

 

 

 

When JM reached out to his father, the fahter's first response was, essentially..."toughen up, pop the guy back." Not different from what you and others are criticizing some here for saying.

I think am not really criticizing anyone for having that initial response to the issue, especially without the knowledge that the guy has a bona fide depression diagnosis. I think it is incumbent on the league and on teams - in a league where a number of high profile guys have committed suicide - to look after their players' mental health, though.

 

I want to stress that I'll make no explicit tie between those two phenomena - the mostly CTE related cases are not the same as depression - but if nothing else it's a workplace issue to "lose" your personnel, however it happens, and workplaces all over have mechanisms in place to deal with this. Especially in a high-stress, high-pressure performance situation like this, it has to be recognized at some point that the "toughen up" method isn't working and that there might be another, better way to reach the player -- or that he needs to leave the sport for his own mental well-being. But when everyone thinks the same way - or is afraid to admit they feel differently - it creates a toxic situation. Having strong voices in the room in the way that Schlereth articulates is a safeguard against that. Having a coach like Joe Gibbs who preaches respect and accountability is another. Which is better - having tougher teammates, or teammates you respect? I think with respect you become tougher as a unit.

 

I think deep down the Dolphins as an organization have to be disappointed that they have basically blown a top pick at an important position. Their way of dealing with this has completely sucked, but I can imagine they would like to have this one back whether it meant drafting a different player, or better yet, figuring out the best way to get the most out of Jonathan Martin.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

No one knows what happens in nthe locker room. I'm confident that the Bills locker room is not as toxic as Miami's but who knows what Martin will tolerate. Sounds like not much--see below.

 

 

 

When JM reached out to his father, the fahter's first response was, essentially..."toughen up, pop the guy back." Not different from what you and others are criticizing some here for saying.

 

It is clear that this kid had significant problems way before he was drafted into the NFL. In fact, he blamed "soft schools" for his problems. He says he was bullied in high school all the time by kids half his size. He continued to struggle at Stanford. Yet, despite knowing all of this, his dad's first impulse was to tell him to fight back.

 

Only well after he joined the Fins did his parents, and the Dolphins organization, encouraged him to seek pychiatric intervention for depression. He did, but he says it didn't do him any good.

 

I'm not sure how anyone who read this report can say that, given his near lifetime of feelings of inadequacy, persecution and poorly treated depression, he belongs on an NFL roster. In fact, his parents would be crazy to encourage this kid to continue doing something that will always put him in danger. If his parents' true, sole interest at this point is his well being, they will yank him from the public stage he now occupies and let him live his life peacefully in a much less threatening atmosphere.

 

 

 

The bolded is a difficult claim to make--unless you were convinced before this whole story broke that the Dolphins locker room in particular was outside the mainstream. I'm betting you didn't. Also, his teammates voted RI captain. Even now, there is not much dissent in that locker room re: what went down.

 

Reasonable post & I'm not in disagreement. Personally, I would have stood up for myself if I felt bullied.

 

My point is that it is hard to get into the mind of someone who is bullied? It's like telling someone who is depressed to just cheer up. So I'm not going to fault Martin for walking away because he felt that was his only option.

 

I just think it's pathetic that somehow people tried to turn this on Martin. Does this world need more RIs or Martins? RI would be in jail if he couldn't play football. Pouncey rolls with murderers. MCKinnie gives oral to strippers on a boat in front of kids. Yet, Martin is the problem?

 

Again, if he is getting help & genuinely wants to play, I have zero problem with the Bills bringing him in.

[Mr. WEO]

I think am not really criticizing anyone for having that initial response to the issue, especially without the knowledge that the guy has a bona fide depression diagnosis. I think it is incumbent on the league and on teams - in a league where a number of high profile guys have committed suicide - to look after their players' mental health, though.

 

I want to stress that I'll make no explicit tie between those two phenomena - the mostly CTE related cases are not the same as depression - but if nothing else it's a workplace issue to "lose" your personnel, however it happens, and workplaces all over have mechanisms in place to deal with this. Especially in a high-stress, high-pressure performance situation like this, it has to be recognized at some point that the "toughen up" method isn't working and that there might be another, better way to reach the player -- or that he needs to leave the sport for his own mental well-being. But when everyone thinks the same way - or is afraid to admit they feel differently - it creates a toxic situation. Having strong voices in the room in the way that Schlereth articulates is a safeguard against that. Having a coach like Joe Gibbs who preaches respect and accountability is another. Which is better - having tougher teammates, or teammates you respect? I think with respect you become tougher as a unit.

 

I think deep down the Dolphins as an organization have to be disappointed that they have basically blown a top pick at an important position. Their way of dealing with this has completely sucked, but I can imagine they would like to have this one back whether it meant drafting a different player, or better yet, figuring out the best way to get the most out of Jonathan Martin.

 

I heard Schlereth's comments. Who knows how it was in his locker room back then. If it was anything like the Fins, his company would never be paying him to say so.

 

As for the well being of their employees, I agree that toxic workplaces as typically (and legally) defined are not allowed and removing them is the responsibility of the employer.

 

I think the Fins should be kicking themselves for blowing another top pick on an O-lineman, period! Did they not just do that a few years ago and, after watching that pick have no impact on their fortunes, let him go (Long)?

[TXBILLSFAN]

No one knows what happens in nthe locker room. I'm confident that the Bills locker room is not as toxic as Miami's but who knows what Martin will tolerate. Sounds like not much--see below.

 

 

 

When JM reached out to his father, the fahter's first response was, essentially..."toughen up, pop the guy back." Not different from what you and others are criticizing some here for saying.

 

It is clear that this kid had significant problems way before he was drafted into the NFL. In fact, he blamed "soft schools" for his problems. He says he was bullied in high school all the time by kids half his size. He continued to struggle at Stanford. Yet, despite knowing all of this, his dad's first impulse was to tell him to fight back.

 

Only well after he joined the Fins did his parents, and the Dolphins organization, encouraged him to seek pychiatric intervention for depression. He did, but he says it didn't do him any good.

 

I'm not sure how anyone who read this report can say that, given his near lifetime of feelings of inadequacy, persecution and poorly treated depression, he belongs on an NFL roster. In fact, his parents would be crazy to encourage this kid to continue doing something that will always put him in danger. If his parents' true, sole interest at this point is his well being, they will yank him from the public stage he now occupies and let him live his life peacefully in a much less threatening atmosphere.

 

 

 

The bolded is a difficult claim to make--unless you were convinced before this whole story broke that the Dolphins locker room in particular was outside the mainstream. I'm betting you didn't. Also, his teammates voted RI captain. Even now, there is not much dissent in that locker room re: what went down.

That's why I said, "I for one THINK", of course I don't know -- but, like I've said before, I'd rather have a JM in my locker room than RI, JJ or MP -- talent aside, I want a TEAM first mentality -- in reality, they are all flawed, but picking between the two, I'll take JM

[Mr. WEO]

Reasonable post & I'm not in disagreement. Personally, I would have stood up for myself if I felt bullied.

 

My point is that it is hard to get into the mind of someone who is bullied? It's like telling someone who is depressed to just cheer up. So I'm not going to fault Martin for walking away because he felt that was his only option.

 

I just think it's pathetic that somehow people tried to turn this on Martin. Does this world need more RIs or Martins? RI would be in jail if he couldn't play football. Pouncey rolls with murderers. MCKinnie gives oral to strippers on a boat in front of kids. Yet, Martin is the problem?

 

Again, if he is getting help & genuinely wants to play, I have zero problem with the Bills bringing him in.

 

If an potential employee tells you he has been addicted to alcohol since high school, struggled with it in college and then had a huge incident involving alcohol requiring nthatbhe voluntarily relieve himself from his job--yet he has not really been treated for it, would you hire that guy to run your drinking establishment?

 

The report mentions that he got some psych help mand took some meds, but he said it didn't help himdeal with his problems at work.

 

I am not calling equal acohol addiction and bully victimization and subsequent depression. Just using as an example.