mrags Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Trixie offense? If anyone is a hall of fame, it is Ted Marchibroda. That offense was not trixie, it was a philosophical, wholesale change that is still being used today. Now to the topic at hand... As an individual player, Andre Reed is not a Hall of Famer. He was good, consistent, and he was the best weapon available to the Bills. Compared to his contemporaries, he was one of the best at his position. By that token, Andre Reed is an excellent Hall of Very Good member. As the sum of the parts, the Buffalo Bills of the 1990s were a devastating force that other teams feared for a run of about 8 years. Andre Reed was a huge part of that. If Andre's career is captured as a part of that dominating team, he IS a Hall of Famer. On that note, I'm going to reserve a hotel room in Canton in August! what I meant by trixie was that he was involved in an offense that nobody knew how to defend (until Belechick in the SB). Trixie was just the word I used. Take it easy. The fact is, he benefited greatly from that. All of those Bills players did at the time. And because of that, your second statement is absolutely on the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOBILLS78 Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 He could be referring to the infamous helmet toss in SB XXVI. Reed did come off as a whiner there, but that guy was tough as nails and I would never, ever accuse him of being a quitter. He was a great, great player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 He could be referring to the infamous helmet toss in SB XXVI. Reed did come off as a whiner there, but that guy was tough as nails and I would never, ever accuse him of being a quitter. He was a great, great player. he tweeted that it was the 95 steelers game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOBILLS78 Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 he tweeted that it was the 95 steelers game Ah, thanks. I don't remember him quitting there, but I barely remember the game beyond Kelly's picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cash Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Silver tweeted regarding this last night: "To clarify re Andre Reed. Great Player. Was accused of dogging it in 95 playoff loss to Steelers. Kelly and Thomas got mad on sidelines...I'm not saying Reed quit, or that he's not a Hall of Famer. I would just want an explanation. He obviously came back and balled in 96...In retrospect I should have asked these questions before airing the long-ago complaint on TV. I will do some research and revisit. In the meantime...Bills fans old enough to remember that 95 loss to the Steelers and it's aftermath know exactly what I'm talking about." I don't remember any problems with Andre that game. Wasn't that the one where Bruce was out with the flu and the Steelers just ran away from Bryce Paup every down? Was that also the game where Kelly got hurt and Van Pelt came in for a series or two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 I don't remember any problems with Andre that game. Wasn't that the one where Bruce was out with the flu and the Steelers just ran away from Bryce Paup every down? Was that also the game where Kelly got hurt and Van Pelt came in for a series or two? Yeah, that is how I remember it as well. It is nice that Silver clarified his idiotic statement, but perhaps he should have done his "research" before making it. My guess is he got an earful (twitterful) from PO'd Bills fans (nobody circles the wagons like slighted Bills fans!)...and he thought he was just going to slide it by...besides, if Cris Carter gets in (and I am not arguing at all that he shouldn't) where is the consideration for all of his off the field shennanegans? Reed may have been having some contract issues at that time..I can't remember...if there is one true blemish for me on Andre, it was the way he acted his last few games in Buffalo. He always had a little bit of a chip on his shoulder, it seemed, and felt a little under-appreciated, even amongst Bills fans. Its' too bad, because he really was a great player. But that last season, I do seem to remember him getting a bit emotional about his contract issues...he was obviously on the downside of his career at that point (the player is always the last to know), Flutie was pretty much freezing him out (it may have been justified, but it still hurt Reeds pride)...he acted out a little the last few games, as I recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Silver is an idiot if he did indeed say that. Reed got a 15 yard unsportsmanlike conduct flag thrown at him in SB 26,because he was incensed that he was being interfered with constantly....this particular flag, as I recall, came on a third down play, and took the Bills out of field goal range...the game was not a blowout yet, so it was viewed as costly. He was also ejected from the 1998 playoff game against the Dolphins, in the final moments, when the ref ruled that he hadn't broken the plane of the endzone as time was running down...as you recall, Flutie was stripped of the ball on the next play by Trace Armstrong...as time ran out. Reed never quit a playoff game... just curious how Silver will view his NFLN co-worker, LaDanian Tomlinson when he is eligible... Actually, in the Dolphins game in 98, Reed's penalty came when it was 24-14. He thought he had scored, making it 24-21. He was wrong, but he got a PF that pushed the Bills back 15 yards. They settled for a FG. On the Bills final drive, he didn't commit any fouls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopey Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 I hope this guy doesn't have a vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 (edited) In game 5 of 1995, longtime Bills fans will remember that Andre Reed tore his hamstring on a truly dirty play by a Jets DB, who roughed Reed way out of bounds. He had played extremely well the two previous games after a rough offensive start by the offense overall. In game 3, he had 6 catches for 95 yards against the Colts, and in game 4 on Monday night against Belichick, he had 97 yards and a game winning TD bomb reception. This came after Belichick insulted Levy for his archaic offense before the game (as some may recall). It was a very sweet victory. He missed every other game until the final game, when the Bills played Todd Collins in a meaningless game in terrible weather against the Oilers. He had no catches in the first playoff game (a 37-22 victory against the Dolphins) and two against the Steelers. Basically, he was nowhere near 100 percent. Prior to the 1996 season, there were a number of questions about whether he could return to form. The media made a big deal of his long catch and run for a TD against the Giants in OT victory. He looked like he had regained his speed -- meaning that he was playing on one leg more or less the season before. Silver is full of crap on this one. Now, having said all of this, I have never thought that Reed was a Hall of Fame-caliber player. He was certainly an extremely good player, however. Edited November 21, 2013 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Consideration should be made of where he was as far as stats when his career ended . At the time he was one of if not the biggest WR out there, & as the years go on with the change in the rules & the game it self he will & has slipped in the numbers thing . This year Marvin Harrison a great player in his own right is a finalist & has the numbers to be a first timer but where was he at when Andre retired ? That should have some kind of bearing on the voting ! Because as it stands with all the guys that are putting up huge numbers now & all the guys that will become elligable say like T.O. & others it will just put ANdre further & further down the list but does that make him any less deserving of the HOF ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lofton80 Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Andre Reed was the best player on the field for the biggest comeback in playoff history against the Oilers. Was not a quitter that day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Actually, in the Dolphins game in 98, Reed's penalty came when it was 24-14. He thought he had scored, making it 24-21. He was wrong, but he got a PF that pushed the Bills back 15 yards. They settled for a FG. On the Bills final drive, he didn't commit any fouls. Thanks for the info...i could have sworn the controversial "no td" call came on that last possession...but I am sure you are right...my memory is fading Because as it stands with all the guys that are putting up huge numbers now & all the guys that will become elligable say like T.O. & others it will just put ANdre further & further down the list but does that make him any less deserving of the HOF ?? Terrell Owens, I suspect, is going to be an interesting case when it comes to the HOF. His numbers will blow Andre Reeds out of the water...but I would still think Reed is more deserving of HOF inclusion than TO. Owens has the "fame" and the stats, but he is as devisive a player as there has ever been...if he isn't voted in within a few years of eligibiltiy, I suspect, a bunch of people will grandstand, nationally, on his behalf, and he will get in...eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Thanks for the info...i could have sworn the controversial "no td" call came on that last possession...but I am sure you are right...my memory is fading Terrell Owens, I suspect, is going to be an interesting case when it comes to the HOF. His numbers will blow Andre Reeds out of the water...but I would still think Reed is more deserving of HOF inclusion than TO. Owens has the "fame" and the stats, but he is as devisive a player as there has ever been...if he isn't voted in within a few years of eligibiltiy, I suspect, a bunch of people will grandstand, nationally, on his behalf, and he will get in...eventually. TO was a more talented and more dominant player than Andre. At his best, he was a one-man wrecking crew. That'll factor into the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Silver is full of crap on this one. Now, having said all of this, I have never thought that Reed was a Hall of Fame-caliber player. He was certainly an extremely good player, however. To me, there is really no established criteria for who is a Hall of Famer, and who isn't, other than being an Pro football player. As the game ages, and different eras pass, it is only become more impossible to compare one era to another...to me, Reed may not have been the best WR in the game during his era, but he was certainly in the very upper-echelon from about 1988-1994...I really can't understand why his induction, especially amongst Bills fans, has become so controversial. I suspect that many who feel Reed doesn't belong, probably feel that Kelly, Thomas and Levy don't belong either. But those Bills teams, and the star players were as big as any in their time...they are an integeral part of the history of the NFL in the 1990's. TO was a more talented and more dominant player than Andre. At his best, he was a one-man wrecking crew. That'll factor into the equation. One-man wrecking crew in more ways than one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 the difference between Reed and Roaf and Shields are that those guys were arguably the best at their positions not only at that time but overall. Reed wasn't ever near the best in any given season. Over time he was fantastic. In a way, Andre's the Emmitt Smith of WRs. Emmitt was never the best in the game during his playing days. There were always other backs I - and most fans - considered better. But Emmitt was very good for a very long time and that got him into the Hall. Reed, like Emmitt, was very good for a very long time. But he had the misfortune of (1) playing when Jerry Rice was playing, and (2) playing right as passing attacks were starting to take off and thus his stats don't especially shine when compared to some more recent players. Yet Andre was selected for the Pro Bowl 7 times. That's usually sufficient to get you into the Hall of Fame. Then again, Will Shields was a 12 time Pro Bowler and he isn't in the Hall yet either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacka Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Reed would have led the league for several seasons, if not for one player - Jerry Rice. When he retired he was second in career catches to Rice. Reed set the one game record for receptions. Later that day, Rice broke that record. To be second to the greatest receiver ever should be enough to get you into the HOF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 (edited) Reed would have led the league for several seasons, if not for one player - Jerry Rice. When he retired he was second in career catches to Rice. Reed set the one game record for receptions. Later that day, Rice broke that record. To be second to the greatest receiver ever should be enough to get you into the HOF. This simply isn't true. Reed only had 1000 yards four times and over 70 catches only five times. He piled up impressive lifetime stats because he played for a very long time. But he was never, ever near the top in in terms WR production in any single year. With regard to receiving yardage rankings, here's how he did in the Levy era (1986-96), which coincided with his prime: 1986 - didn't make the top ten 1987 - didn't make the top ten 1988 - didn't make the top ten 1989 - 5th 1990 - didn't make the top ten 1991 - 6th 1992 - didn't make the top ten 1993 - didn't make the top ten 1994 - 5th 1995 - didn't place (injured) 1996 - didn't make the top ten Bills fans need to take off the blinders. Reed was a very good player, but he was never a dominant player who took over games. Edited November 21, 2013 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 This simply isn't true. Reed only had 1000 yards four times and over 70 catches only five times. He piled up impressive lifetime stats because he played for a very long time. But he was never, ever near the top in in terms WR production in any single year. With regard to receiving yardage rankings, here's how he did in the Levy era (1986-96), which coincided with his prime: 1986 - didn't make the top ten 1987 - didn't make the top ten 1988 - didn't make the top ten 1989 - 5th 1990 - didn't make the top ten 1991 - 6th 1992 - didn't make the top ten 1993 - didn't make the top ten 1994 - 5th 1995 - didn't place (injured) 1996 - didn't make the top ten Bills fans need to take off the blinders. Reed was a very good player, but he was never a dominant player who took over games. nice work. I don't disagree that Reed should be in the HOF. The fact is, that other WRs are in that have produced less. But as Bills fans we need to let go of this "everyone hates us" chip on our shoulders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 This simply isn't true. Reed only had 1000 yards four times and over 70 catches only five times. He piled up impressive lifetime stats because he played for a very long time. But he was never, ever near the top in in terms WR production in any single year. With regard to receiving yardage rankings, here's how he did in the Levy era (1986-96), which coincided with his prime: 1986 - didn't make the top ten 1987 - didn't make the top ten 1988 - didn't make the top ten 1989 - 5th 1990 - didn't make the top ten 1991 - 6th 1992 - didn't make the top ten 1993 - didn't make the top ten 1994 - 5th 1995 - didn't place (injured) 1996 - didn't make the top ten Bills fans need to take off the blinders. Reed was a very good player, but he was never a dominant player who took over games. Cris Carter never dominated games, but he's in the HOF. So is Art Monk. I would put Andre in way before either of those guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 (edited) In a way, Andre's the Emmitt Smith of WRs. Emmitt was never the best in the game during his playing days. There were always other backs I - and most fans - considered better. But Emmitt was very good for a very long time and that got him into the Hall. Reed, like Emmitt, was very good for a very long time. But he had the misfortune of (1) playing when Jerry Rice was playing, and (2) playing right as passing attacks were starting to take off and thus his stats don't especially shine when compared to some more recent players. Yet Andre was selected for the Pro Bowl 7 times. That's usually sufficient to get you into the Hall of Fame. Then again, Will Shields was a 12 time Pro Bowler and he isn't in the Hall yet either. Smith won the league rushing title 4 times and also won an MVP. I don't think there's any comparison. Cris Carter never dominated games, but he's in the HOF. So is Art Monk. I would put Andre in way before either of those guys. You would because you're a Bills fan! Carter was far better at one thing than just about any receiver ever - making tough catches in the end zone that virtually no other receiver could make on a consistent basis. Plus he had dominant numbers both in numerous individual seasons and over time despite screwing up for a few years in Philly. Carter is annoying, but he was a better and more physically imposing receiver than Reed. I don't disagree about Monk. I don't think he was especially great. Edited November 21, 2013 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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