Cash Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 That was five years ago. The Pats* roster is nothing like it was back then, in terms of surrounding talent. And THAT is a direct reflection of the FO -- which was the whole point of this thread. The circle is complete. The OP uses a fact about the Pats' poor DB drafting to suggest that their FO is not as great as it's cracked up to be. The response to that was along the lines of, "they win all the time, so yeah, their FO is really good." The rebuttal went something like, "they only win because they have Tom Brady, not because of their FO." One poster (the one I was replying to) went so far as to say "They would be nothing w/o [brady]". I pointed out that they went 11-5 without Brady in 2008 after going 16-0 with him the year before, so one would think he's worth about 5 wins a year. The last 3 years they've gone 12-4, 13-3, and 14-2. Those are good records. Obviously Brady is their best player and plays the most important position, so he's the biggest factor in those records. But I don't see where anyone can say they'd stink without him. Be average? Sure. But if they started investing 1st-round picks into QBs instead of future-bust DBs, they'd probably find someone at least good enough to take the rest of the team to the playoffs. Honestly, the only thing the OP's stat shows is that the Pats are bad at identifying and/or developing DB talent in the draft. And they've been bad at that pretty consistently -- I think the current regime inherited Lawyer Milloy, Ty Law, et al, and supplemented them with free agent pickups like O-T-I-S Smith. Rodney Harrison was either a trade or FA. Aqib Talib was a trade. McCourty seems to be a good S, but was drafted to play CB. (Hi, Aaron Williams!) Dennard and Asante Samuel are the only 2 Belichick-era DB draftees that come to mind as being successes. On the other hand, they've shown to be consistently strong at identifying/developing talent in the defensive front 7 and on the offensive line. They've had mixed results at TE & RB, and have been pretty bad with WRs in the draft. And obviously they haven't needed much in the way of QB, but based on the limited data (Kevin O'Connor, Cassell, Hoyer, maybe Mallett), they don't seem to be world-beaters in that area. (Thankfully!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan714 Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 A Bills fan criticizing the Patriots drafting is pretty amazing, especially since the 2002 draft we've had ONE player we've drafted get voted to the pro bowl. Even more amazing considering our different draft positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 (edited) Having one of the best QB's to ever play the game allows your FO office to miss as much or more than other teams and still be successful. Its not just Brady, as they proved they can have a winning season with him on IR for 15 games. But yea, they can be super selective since they already possess a playoff roster. Then don't forget what part of the rounds they are always drafting in, 25-32 usually. I also think they just haven't been nearly as good at talent evaluation since the Falcons stole their player personnel director Thomas Dimitroff away from them, and made him their GM. Ex Patriot GM Scott Pioli probably also relied heavily on Dimitroff as he has shown to be not very good away from the Patriots. Edited August 29, 2013 by FeartheLosing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 I don't think anyone really believes their FO is great. They did well with mid-level FA's early on but their drafts and FA signings have been poor for years. Even look at their decision to give Hernandez a big extension. It looks as if they knew he had drug issues. I think they passed on the greatest QB of all time 5 times just like everyone else did. Brady is everything to that team. Brady is two defensive lapses away from winning 5 SuperBowls. We denied for years what he is. But he is the one. I would argue that the two greatest QBs of all time are Johnny Unitas and Aaron Rodgers. Tom Brady is probably among the top-5 of all time though, along with Joe Montana and Steve Young. The Patriots' draft of 2000 went as follows: 2) Adrian Klemm, OT. Was a backup OT for the Patriots for five years. Retired after his sixth year. 3) J.R. Redmond, RB. Six year career. Backup for all six. First three years with the Patriots. 4) Greg Randall, T. Was a backup for NE for two years, and a starter for one. Spent his fourth (and final) year in the NFL with the Texans. 5a) Dave Stachelski, TE. Didn't make the Patriots' final roster. Backup for the Saints for two years before retiring. 5b) Jeff Marriott, position not listed. Retired without making anyone's final roster. 6a) Antwan Harris, CB. Had a six year career as a backup. 6b) Tom Brady, QB. 6c) Dave Nugent, DT. Had a three year NFL career as a backup. 7a) Casey Tisdale, position unlisted. Did not make anyone's final roster. 7b) Patrick Pass, RB. Had an eight year career as a backup. No starting quality players from that draft except Brady. That makes me feel a little better about the usual ineptitude of the Bills' front office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted August 29, 2013 Author Share Posted August 29, 2013 A Bills fan criticizing the Patriots drafting is pretty amazing, especially since the 2002 draft we've had ONE player we've drafted get voted to the pro bowl. Even more amazing considering our different draft positions. It doesn't matter who is a fan of what... just stating the facts. Breer is a Pats fan, btw. Again, I was not comparing the NE FO to the Bills FO. If you think that consistency in winning is all that makes a front office ther best in the league, think again. The Colts went to the playoffs every year except one from 1999 (the year after they drafted Manning) to 2011 (the year Manning didn't play) including 2 SBs. That front office started in 1998, the year they drafted Manning. The year Manning got hurt, they went 2-14, and the entire FO was fired except for one guy, who was not given the GM job and left the next year for another team who did. They were fired because the perception was they made some really good decisions but a ton of picks/signing that didn't work out. It was considered one of the best FOs in the league until one day Manning went down, and then it wasn't. Peel back the onion a little... is all I'm saying. I only cited the DB situation as one example because it happened yesterday. I do know there are other positions that can be analyzed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 The OP uses a fact about the Pats' poor DB drafting to suggest that their FO is not as great as it's cracked up to be. The response to that was along the lines of, "they win all the time, so yeah, their FO is really good." The rebuttal went something like, "they only win because they have Tom Brady, not because of their FO." One poster (the one I was replying to) went so far as to say "They would be nothing w/o [brady]". I pointed out that they went 11-5 without Brady in 2008 after going 16-0 with him the year before, so one would think he's worth about 5 wins a year. The last 3 years they've gone 12-4, 13-3, and 14-2. Those are good records. Obviously Brady is their best player and plays the most important position, so he's the biggest factor in those records. But I don't see where anyone can say they'd stink without him. Be average? Sure. But if they started investing 1st-round picks into QBs instead of future-bust DBs, they'd probably find someone at least good enough to take the rest of the team to the playoffs. Honestly, the only thing the OP's stat shows is that the Pats are bad at identifying and/or developing DB talent in the draft. And they've been bad at that pretty consistently -- I think the current regime inherited Lawyer Milloy, Ty Law, et al, and supplemented them with free agent pickups like O-T-I-S Smith. Rodney Harrison was either a trade or FA. Aqib Talib was a trade. McCourty seems to be a good S, but was drafted to play CB. (Hi, Aaron Williams!) Dennard and Asante Samuel are the only 2 Belichick-era DB draftees that come to mind as being successes. On the other hand, they've shown to be consistently strong at identifying/developing talent in the defensive front 7 and on the offensive line. They've had mixed results at TE & RB, and have been pretty bad with WRs in the draft. And obviously they haven't needed much in the way of QB, but based on the limited data (Kevin O'Connor, Cassell, Hoyer, maybe Mallett), they don't seem to be world-beaters in that area. (Thankfully!) By your own rule of Brady being +5 wins per year, which is actually pretty fair to say. Any team with Brady gets approximately 5 extra wins per season, compared to one without. Their records without him those years are 9-7, 8-8, and 7-9. It is obviously not perfect or exact, nor are those terrible records by Bills standards. Those numbers are average and beatable, which is a HUGE fall from grace, because with Brady they are one of, if not the best team in the NFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 (edited) It doesn't matter who is a fan of what... just stating the facts. Breer is a Pats fan, btw. Again, I was not comparing the NE FO to the Bills FO. If you think that consistency in winning is all that makes a front office ther best in the league, think again. The Colts went to the playoffs every year except one from 1999 (the year after they drafted Manning) to 2011 (the year Manning didn't play) including 2 SBs. That front office started in 1998, the year they drafted Manning. The year Manning got hurt, they went 2-14, and the entire FO was fired except for one guy, who was not given the GM job and left the next year for another team who did. They were fired because the perception was they made some really good decisions but a ton of picks/signing that didn't work out. It was considered one of the best FOs in the league until one day Manning went down, and then it wasn't. Peel back the onion a little... is all I'm saying. I only cited the DB situation as one example because it happened yesterday. I do know there are other positions that can be analyzed. Good post. During the early '90s, the Bills had a number of superstar players; and went to the Super Bowl every year. Then the superstars began to age. Butler added a little talent here and there. A few of his draft picks worked out, such as Ruben Brown. Some of his free agent signings were good. The aging superstars, plus the other stuff, was good enough to get the Bills into the playoffs in the late '90s. Not only that, we were 16 seconds away from beating the Titans. If we were good enough to beat them, we might have been good enough to get to another Super Bowl. (As they went on to do.) Once TD took over, he decided the Bills were in full-on rebuilding mode. There were very few good, young players on the roster. Antoine Winfield and Eric Moulds come to mind, but very few other players do. The Bills' playoff appearances of the late '90s were due mostly to older players, or to younger players who had a few good years, then flamed out. Butler was not as good a GM as his late '90s records would indicate. Is the current Patriots team in a similar position to the Bills of the late '90s? If Tom Brady were to retire tomorrow, would there be enough good, young players on their roster to justify not going into full-on rebuilding mode? Edited August 29, 2013 by Edwards' Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 I would argue that the two greatest QBs of all time are Johnny Unitas and Aaron Rodgers. Tom Brady is probably among the top-5 of all time though, along with Joe Montana and Steve Young. The Patriots' draft of 2000 went as follows: 2) Adrian Klemm, OT. Was a backup OT for the Patriots for five years. Retired after his sixth year. 3) J.R. Redmond, RB. Six year career. Backup for all six. First three years with the Patriots. 4) Greg Randall, T. Was a backup for NE for two years, and a starter for one. Spent his fourth (and final) year in the NFL with the Texans. 5a) Dave Stachelski, TE. Didn't make the Patriots' final roster. Backup for the Saints for two years before retiring. 5b) Jeff Marriott, position not listed. Retired without making anyone's final roster. 6a) Antwan Harris, CB. Had a six year career as a backup. 6b) Tom Brady, QB. 6c) Dave Nugent, DT. Had a three year NFL career as a backup. 7a) Casey Tisdale, position unlisted. Did not make anyone's final roster. 7b) Patrick Pass, RB. Had an eight year career as a backup. No starting quality players from that draft except Brady. That makes me feel a little better about the usual ineptitude of the Bills' front office. They finally hit with 6a. Such a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 I know this is a thread is a chance to bash the Patriots*, which is always enjoyable, but could it simply be that drafting DB's is difficult in general? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPS Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 The point was made that the Pats have as bad, if not worse, at identifying talent lately and I agree. If the Bills just cut Cordy Glenn, we'd be a punchline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benderbender Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Per Albert Breer. From 2007-12, Pats spent 8 picks in 1st 4 rounds on DBs. Only 2 are left - Devin McCourty and Tavon Wilson. 33rd overall pick in 2011, CB Ras-I Dowling, cut today. P.S. Should we sign him Yep. Makes me really proud of all of OUR picks that are still around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucethomas34 Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Per Albert Breer. From 2007-12, Pats spent 8 picks in 1st 4 rounds on DBs. Only 2 are left - Devin McCourty and Tavon Wilson. 33rd overall pick in 2011, CB Ras-I Dowling, cut today. P.S. Should we sign him The only thing good about the Pats is Tom Brady, the rest of the organization from top to bottom if a joke, including belecheat, just being honnest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted August 30, 2013 Author Share Posted August 30, 2013 I know this is a thread is a chance to bash the Patriots*, which is always enjoyable, but could it simply be that drafting DB's is difficult in general? Yes, Yes, and Yes. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 The simple fact is that while Belechick has been terrible at drafting since Pioli left(don't ask me why), and especially so when it comes to DBs he has been able to mitigate that by having 3 things: 1. An above average D line, and front 7, in terms of results, not necessarily talent. They've played as a team better than almost every other team. 2. An excellent scheme, that is excellent becuase it is flexible, and can be adjusted and tailored to suit the players he does have 3. Superior LB play, that is a direct result of taking what would be JAGs on another team, and putting them in position to play to their strengths However, given what I have seen this preseason, and this CANNOT be explained away using the preseason excuse, this scheming away deficiencies may have finally caught up to him. I said MAY. There are serious issues at LB, perhaps for the very first time ever since Brady/Belechik started. From what I've seen: 1. Slow LBs in run pursuit 2. Multiple LBs who can't cover: anybody 3. Marginal to weak pass rush, even when they've sent 2-3 blitzers This may be the year that all the bad drafts matter, because the LBs and DLs can't hold up their end, never mind cover for a weak secondary. When they first had trouble at LB, they got Randy Moss and Wes Welker, and went from being a defensive team that wins by Vinatieri FG, to an offensive team that wins by Brady TDs. They have never replaced the LBs they had in the SB years. What makes this year different: they also haven't replaced the WRs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurmal34 Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 (edited) the Pats re-built, in mid stream, and barely missed a beat. And they did so while operating under the confines of a restrictive sal cap era. Good point. And yet they bricked on tons of draft picks and FA signings during that time. So, in your opinion, what has allowed them to compete at the high level you mention despite the many failures in drafting and FA signings? Edited August 30, 2013 by Thurmal34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kemp Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 If we are to call the front office of NE not so great, one can only imagine the applicable term for the Buffalo front office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollars 2 donuts Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 (edited) I feel better. This made me laugh. Edited August 30, 2013 by dollars 2 donuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 @caplannfl 2010 second rounder. Another miss by the Pats. RT @ProFootballTalk: Patriots cut Jermaine Cumningham, per league source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 One man: Ernie Adams. Without him the Pats would be mortal. This. Belichick and Brady help, but this guy is key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pneumonic Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 (edited) Good point. And yet they bricked on tons of draft picks and FA signings during that time. So, in your opinion, what has allowed them to compete at the high level you mention despite the many failures in drafting and FA signings? The many draft picks and free agents that did work out ............ Edited August 31, 2013 by Pneumonic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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