Ichiro Suzuki - 4000th Hit???

[Gugny]

Let me preface this by saying I think Ichiro is one of the greatest hitters in the history of Major League Baseball. I also think he is a first-ballot Hall of Famer.

 

That said ... the hoopla over his 4,000th hit last night was unwarranted.

 

Why? Because he only has 2,722 in a Major League Baseball uniform. The other 1,278 were in Japan.

 

Does anyone factor in Jim Kelly's USFL TD passes?

 

Do any NFL Europe stats carry over to career totals?

 

When baseball players play in winter leagues (Roberto Clemente League in Puerto Rico, for example) do their hits, HRs, RBI, etc. carry over to their career stats?

 

Did Hideki Matsui's HRs in Japan count when he became a Yankee?

 

No, no, no and no.

 

Getting 1,278 hits in Japan is like getting 1,278 hits in AA or AAA in the U.S.

 

When he retires, Ichiro's statistics should be celebrated. If he can squeak out another 2-3 years, perhaps he hits the legitimate 3,000 hit mark. THEN you can stop the game and give him the love.

 

But last night, Ichiro hit his 2,722nd hit.

 

That's like celebrating the 182nd day after your 39th birthday.

 

Makes no sense ... because it ain't the same as hitting the big 4-0. You're just kinda close.

[Beerball]

Let me preface this by saying I think Ichiro is one of the greatest hitters in the history of Major League Baseball. I also think he is a first-ballot Hall of Famer.

 

That said ... the hoopla over his 4,000th hit last night was unwarranted.

 

Why? Because he only has 2,722 in a Major League Baseball uniform. The other 1,278 were in Japan.

 

Does anyone factor in Jim Kelly's USFL TD passes?

 

Do any NFL Europe stats carry over to career totals?

 

When baseball players play in winter leagues (Roberto Clemente League in Puerto Rico, for example) do their hits, HRs, RBI, etc. carry over to their career stats?

 

Did Hideki Matsui's HRs in Japan count when he became a Yankee?

 

No, no, no and no.

 

Getting 1,278 hits in Japan is like getting 1,278 hits in AA or AAA in the U.S.

 

When he retires, Ichiro's statistics should be celebrated. If he can squeak out another 2-3 years, perhaps he hits the legitimate 3,000 hit mark. THEN you can stop the game and give him the love.

 

But last night, Ichiro hit his 2,722nd hit.

 

That's like celebrating the 182nd day after your 39th birthday.

 

Makes no sense ... because it ain't the same as hitting the big 4-0. You're just kinda close.

[DC Tom]

That's like celebrating the 182nd day after your 39th birthday.

 

39 and 182 days is a big deal. No one told you? I had a 39 and 182 birthday party. So did a lot of people I know. And a lot of people here - Cudgelabadger did, I'm sure.

[Cugalabanza]

39 and 182 days is a big deal. No one told you? I had a 39 and 182 birthday party. So did a lot of people I know. And a lot of people here - Cudgelabadger did, I'm sure.

 

I certainly did. It was an awesome party. We had snacks and beverages. We played games. There was a clown, although that wasn't planned--Gugny just showed up--we had to ask him to leave.

[Metal Man]

I agree with everything you said except for the AAA comparison. The Japanese leagues are a step above that though I still don't think they should count towards any MLB records.

 

One thing they mentioned last night though that I found pretty telling on how good Ichiro has been is that no one in the history of MLB has gotten 2722 hits in a 13 season span like Ichiro has.

 

Might not be worth celebrating but I was still OK with it. Nice to have some baseball news out there with a positive spin versus all the a-rod and ped news every day.

[Gugny]

I agree with everything you said except for the AAA comparison. The Japanese leagues are a step above that though I still don't think they should count towards any MLB records.

 

One thing they mentioned last night though that I found pretty telling on how good Ichiro has been is that no one in the history of MLB has gotten 2722 hits in a 13 season span like Ichiro has.

 

Might not be worth celebrating but I was still OK with it. Nice to have some baseball news out there with a positive spin versus all the a-rod and ped news every day.

I'll agree that Japanese League is a step above AAA ... but it's still below MLB (I know you know that).

 

His accomplishments (2722) are ridiculously impressive. I would love to see him hit 3K. Class act HOF'er.

[Marv's Neighbor]

Must be the Performance Enhancing Sushi!

[The Poojer]

keep in mind, it's not an official record, simply acknowledging the accomplishment, and those 2722 hits in just 13 years put him past Lou Gehrig. It was just an acknowledgement of his accomplishments, much like if Sudahara Oh had come to the US to play for a few seasons. A celebration, nothing more, nothing less

 

and it's quite possible he can reach 3,000 MLB hits be end of next season...that's 3000 in 14 seasons, that's 214+ hits a season, that's pretty frigging awesome

Edited August 22, 2013 by The Poojer

[Gugny]

keep in mind, it's not an official record, simply acknowledging the accomplishment, and those 2722 hits in just 13 years put him past Lou Gehrig. It was just an acknowledgement of his accomplishments, much like if Sudahara Oh had come to the US to play for a few seasons. A celebration, nothing more, nothing less

I get that, I really do. But why put the 4K spin on it? Combining numbers from two different leagues just doesn't make any sense to me.

[GOBILLS78]

When I heard them talking about this on the radio this morning, and they mentioned backlash about the attention the 4,000th hit received, I thought to myself, "Who in the world is upset by this?" Now I know.

[NoSaint]

 

I get that, I really do. But why put the 4K spin on it? Combining numbers from two different leagues just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

because home teams can do nice things for their loyal star players, even if it doesnt make a ton of sense.

[Gugny]

When I heard them talking about this on the radio this morning, and they mentioned backlash about the attention the 4,000th hit received, I thought to myself, "Who in the world is upset by this?" Now I know.

I'm not upset. I'm just a little confused. I'm happy for him. Always loved him as a player. He's been a joy to watch over the past 13 years.

[BuffaloBill]

 

I get that, I really do. But why put the 4K spin on it? Combining numbers from two different leagues just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

Don't forget baseball is huge in Japan. The celebration creates stronger interest in that country and I will bet there was a lift in merchandise sold in Japan. It is a noteworthy accomplishment for the individual but at the end of the day this is a business that needs to create fan appeal. This action does the latter in more than one country.

[GOBILLS78]

I'm not upset. I'm just a little confused. I'm happy for him. Always loved him as a player. He's been a joy to watch over the past 13 years.

 

Oh, definitely. Total speculation, of course, but I'm thinking other players aren't recognized for their AA and AAA statistics because if they're in the farm leagues long enough to have that many hits, chances are they aren't reaching a milestone hit number in total anyway. Honoring 4K is probably honoring his longevity and professional success, more than the number itself.

[apuszczalowski]

because home teams can do nice things for their loyal star players, even if it doesnt make a ton of sense.

Huh? Are you confusing him with Hideki Matsui?

Ichiro came over at the trade deadline last season from the Mariners to be a bench player/occasional starter. He has played about 1 full season as a Yankee

 

Even as a Jays fan who dispises everything New York/Boston sports has to offer I have no issues seeing respect shown to Ichiro for reaching a huge milestone, even if its a combination of stats from both leagues. The japanese league his stats were included from is the equivelant to the MLB in Japan. But of course since its not the North American version of the league it has to be inferior. Even if you take out the hits from his time in Japan, he still passes Lou Gehrig with the hit which is something to acknowledge. I would much rather see what happened last night then the constant circle jerk that goes on whenever Mariono Riveras name is spoken the last couple seasons.....

[NoSaint]

Huh? Are you confusing him with Hideki Matsui?

Ichiro came over at the trade deadline last season from the Mariners to be a bench player/occasional starter. He has played about 1 full season as a Yankee

 

Even as a Jays fan who dispises everything New York/Boston sports has to offer I have no issues seeing respect shown to Ichiro for reaching a huge milestone, even if its a combination of stats from both leagues. The japanese league his stats were included from is the equivelant to the MLB in Japan. But of course since its not the North American version of the league it has to be inferior. Even if you take out the hits from his time in Japan, he still passes Lou Gehrig with the hit which is something to acknowledge. I would much rather see what happened last night then the constant circle jerk that goes on whenever Mariono Riveras name is spoken the last couple seasons.....

 

haha - woooops. havent watched much if any ball this year and frankly, spaced out for a moment. i certainly remember the trade, but didnt really think about it when i overheard the coverage this morning while getting ready.

 

skews me a bit more towards it being silly, but oh well.... im not opposed to them doing silly stuff to give a pat on the back to hard workers. the discussions i heard this morning were also hitting on the japanese league being much more competitive than most critics giving credit for.

Edited August 22, 2013 by NoSaint

[section122]

I get that, I really do. But why put the 4K spin on it? Combining numbers from two different leagues just doesn't make any sense to me.

This is not as uncommon as you think. He has 4000 hits in professional baseball which is what they celebrated. The HOF is for all of professional baseball which is why it encompasses the Negro Leagues. A football comparison would be Warren Moon, this is lifted off of his wiki page:

 

Moon held the record for most passing yardage in professional football (CFL + NFL career) until surpassed by Damon Allen on September 4, 2006,^[1] held the record for most passing touchdowns in professional football until surpassed by Brett Favre on November 22, 2007, held the record for most pass completions in professional football until surpassed by Brett Favre on December 23, 2007,^[2] and held the record for most pass attempts in professional football history until surpassed by Brett Favre on December 14, 2008.

 

 

Last night was a big deal for Ichiro. He became only the 3rd player in professional baseball history to reach 4000 hits. The Japanese league is taken very seriously. When or if he breaks the all-time hits record by Pete Rose he will be the career leader in professional baseball for hits. Whether you choose to recognize it is up to you but it won't change the fact.

 

 

When I heard them talking about this on the radio this morning, and they mentioned backlash about the attention the 4,000th hit received, I thought to myself, "Who in the world is upset by this?" Now I know.

Yankee haters and Mets Fans that's who

[The Poojer]

Mo deserves the curtain calls...what i do think is over the top is the 'private sessions' he is having...but the gifts the opposing teams are presenting him I think is very cool and shows how much everyone respects his accomplishments....

 

Huh? Are you confusing him with Hideki Matsui?

Ichiro came over at the trade deadline last season from the Mariners to be a bench player/occasional starter. He has played about 1 full season as a Yankee

 

Even as a Jays fan who dispises everything New York/Boston sports has to offer I have no issues seeing respect shown to Ichiro for reaching a huge milestone, even if its a combination of stats from both leagues. The japanese league his stats were included from is the equivelant to the MLB in Japan. But of course since its not the North American version of the league it has to be inferior. Even if you take out the hits from his time in Japan, he still passes Lou Gehrig with the hit which is something to acknowledge. I would much rather see what happened last night then the constant circle jerk that goes on whenever Mariono Riveras name is spoken the last couple seasons.....

[Gugny]

Mo deserves the curtain calls...what i do think is over the top is the 'private sessions' he is having...but the gifts the opposing teams are presenting him I think is very cool and shows how much everyone respects his accomplishments....

Agree with this whole-heartedly.

[apuszczalowski]

Mo deserves the curtain calls...what i do think is over the top is the 'private sessions' he is having...but the gifts the opposing teams are presenting him I think is very cool and shows how much everyone respects his accomplishments....

many "Non Yankee" Greats have retired over the years without a quarter of what the Yankee Great is getting for retiring this season. Did Cal Ripken get presented gifts publically at every final stop he made when he retired?

[section122]

many "Non Yankee" Greats have retired over the years without a quarter of what the Yankee Great is getting for retiring this season. Did Cal Ripken get presented gifts publically at every final stop he made when he retired?

2 answers for you.

 

Mo is getting all of this love because of the absolute class act he is AND how dominant he has been and still is. The behind the scenes stuff is not publicized by him but by sports media. It shouldn't sour you on him. He is treating long term employess at parks to very special treatment because they have been good to him. He is just paying back and showing gratitude to the "little guys" that most players probably don't care at all about. For all of the hate the Yankees get it is hard to argue that he and Jeter have done everything "the right way." (yes I am a Yankee fan and Mo is my favorite player - lay of me )

 

Secondly, Ripken announced his retirement in June. This link shows you what teams did for him - including the Yankees. Lately it has been difficult to honor great players as most of them have the steroid cloud hanging over their head. Those that do it the right way (Ripken, Mo, and I'm sure Jeter when the time comes) are sent off the right way.... With the respect they deserve.

 

edit: Ripken also won the all star mvp award his last year after announcing his retirement.

Edited August 22, 2013 by section122

[The Poojer]

fixed it for you... :-)

 

2 answers for you.

 

Mo is getting all of this love because of the absolute class act he is AND how dominant he has been and still is. The behind the scenes stuff is not publicized by him but by sports media. It shouldn't sour you on him. He is treating long term employess at parks to very special treatment because they have been good to him. He is just paying back and showing gratitude to the "little guys" that most players probably don't care at all about. For all of the hate the Yankees get it is hard to argue that he and Jeter have done everything "the right way." (yes I am a Yankee fan and Mo is my favorite player - lay of me )

 

Secondly, Ripken announced his retirement in June. This link shows you what teams did for him - including the Yankees. Lately it has been difficult to honor great players as most of them have the steroid cloud hanging over their head. Those that do it the right way (Ripken, Mo, and I'm sure Jeter when the time comes) are sent off the right way.... With the respect they deserve.

 

edit: Ripken also won was given the all star mvp award his last year after announcing his retirement.

[Gugny]

fixed it for you... :-)

Should also add he was given the equivalent of an underhand pitch in the same All-Star Game so he could "hit a home run."

 

One of the most pathetic moments in sports history, in my book.

[The Poojer]

yeah it was pathetic but even as a life long yankee, the memory i take away is up there with Kirk Gibsons HR in the WS when he could hardly hold up the bat...i let the fluff pitch escape my memory...i choose to remember it as in incredible moment for an incredible player...it's not a lie if i believe it

 

Should also add he was given the equivalent of an underhand pitch in the same All-Star Game so he could "hit a home run."

 

One of the most pathetic moments in sports history, in my book.

[section122]

yeah it was pathetic but even as a life long yankee, the memory i take away is up there with Kirk Gibsons HR in the WS when he could hardly hold up the bat...i let the fluff pitch escape my memory...i choose to remember it as in incredible moment for an incredible player...it's not a lie if i believe it

Man tht homer off of the unhittable Eckersley!!! I hated the A's when I was a kid and loved that hr. What a magical moment!

[NoSaint]

yeah it was pathetic but even as a life long yankee, the memory i take away is up there with Kirk Gibsons HR in the WS when he could hardly hold up the bat...i let the fluff pitch escape my memory...i choose to remember it as in incredible moment for an incredible player...it's not a lie if i believe it

 

agreed - sometimes its nice to let it go and just be a fan and happy to see a great one get to have some fun and a pat on the back.

[Gugny]

agreed - sometimes its nice to let it go and just be a fan and happy to see a great one get to have some fun and a pat on the back.

I was never a Gibson fan, but I'll never forget the fist pump as he rounded first base. It was a magical moment, for sure.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Suzuki will even admit it that it was overblown! Really you ask? That is why he said if he gets to 3,000 MLB hits... Nobody can argue...

 

Class act!

 

A-Roid you douche... You taking notes!

 

Joe Girardi mentioned that most don't get 4,000 hits in a lifetime going all the way back to teeball... Not even close.

Edited August 23, 2013 by ExiledInIllinois

[KD in CA]

I disagree with the tenor of this thread...it's a huge accomplishment.

 

First, no one is suggesting MLB record books be changed so let's ignore that silly strawman right off the bat.

 

Second, we're talking about PROFESSIONAL stats; and his Japan years were highly competetive professional baseball. To write off his accomplishments from those years is disengenuous based on what he did there vs. here. He's averaged 50 more hits per year in MLB than he did in Japan. Now a lot of that is due to the AB total, but also compare the stats. He hit .353 in Japan over 7 seasons. His first 7 seasons in MLB (taking him into in 30s), he hit .333 -- a HOF caliber average. In 12 total MLB years he has 2700 hits and a .322 average. Compare that to say, HOF Rod Carew who hit .328 and 3000 hits; but in 19 seasons, including all of his youth (where Suzuki was playing in Japan). So extrapolate that .333 average for Suzuki over those 7 seasons in his 20s and with the extra ABs you can make a very reasonable case that he'd be past 4000 already and on the doorstep of Rose's record.

 

If you want to suggest adding in minor league stats as a comparison, fine. Susuki and Jeter have both been in organized pro baseball since 1992 and Jeter is still 200 hits behind (500 if you only count AAA and MLB for Jeter).

 

So is 4,000 as impressive as it would be if he played his whole career in MLB? No. But to suggest it's not a noteworthy and exceptional accomplishment is ludicrous.

[Gugny]

I disagree with the tenor of this thread...it's a huge accomplishment.

 

First, no one is suggesting MLB record books be changed so let's ignore that silly strawman right off the bat.

 

Second, we're talking about PROFESSIONAL stats; and his Japan years were highly competetive professional baseball. To write off his accomplishments from those years is disengenuous based on what he did there vs. here. He's averaged 50 more hits per year in MLB than he did in Japan. Now a lot of that is due to the AB total, but also compare the stats. He hit .353 in Japan over 7 seasons. His first 7 seasons in MLB (taking him into in 30s), he hit .333 -- a HOF caliber average. In 12 total MLB years he has 2700 hits and a .322 average. Compare that to say, HOF Rod Carew who hit .328 and 3000 hits; but in 19 seasons, including all of his youth (where Suzuki was playing in Japan). So extrapolate that .333 average for Suzuki over those 7 seasons in his 20s and with the extra ABs you can make a very reasonable case that he'd be past 4000 already and on the doorstep of Rose's record.

 

If you want to suggest adding in minor league stats as a comparison, fine. Susuki and Jeter have both been in organized pro baseball since 1992 and Jeter is still 200 hits behind (500 if you only count AAA and MLB for Jeter).

 

So is 4,000 as impressive as it would be if he played his whole career in MLB? No. But to suggest it's not a noteworthy and exceptional accomplishment is ludicrous.

Japanese pitchers were never, and still are not, as good as MLB pitchers. Nearly half of his 4k hits were off of pitchers that couldn't sniff the big leagues. That is not an insignificant fact.

 

I never said he shouldn't be celebrated. I just said he shouldn't be celebrated for 4,000 hits.

[bbb]

He's not be celebrated for 4000 MLB hits. Can you imagine how much bigger of a deal that would be than what this little celebration was?

 

I'm pretty sure he'd have at least 3500 hits if he played in MLB all those years. Easily.

 

many "Non Yankee" Greats have retired over the years without a quarter of what the Yankee Great is getting for retiring this season. Did Cal Ripken get presented gifts publically at every final stop he made when he retired?

 

I think he did. That's the way I remember it.

[KD in CA]

 

Japanese pitchers were never, and still are not, as good as MLB pitchers. Nearly half of his 4k hits were off of pitchers that couldn't sniff the big leagues. That is not an insignificant fact.

 

I never said he shouldn't be celebrated. I just said he shouldn't be celebrated for 4,000 hits.

 

Nearly half? Check your math, more than 2/3 have come in MLB. You'd have a reasonable argument if he had played the majority of his career in Japan and his performance was dramatically worse in MLB than it was in Japan. But neither of those things is the case - he's a borderline HOFer on his MLB career alone. There is no question he'd be at 4,000 anyway if he had played his whole career in MLB.

 

 

He's not be celebrated for 4000 MLB hits. Can you imagine how much bigger of a deal that would be than what this little celebration was?

Exactly. It's barely a blip on the radar and people have any issue with it even being mentioned. Crazy.

 

 

I'm pretty sure he'd have at least 3500 hits if he played in MLB all those years. Easily.

He'd have over 4000 with the extra ABs in MLB and Pete Rose would be sh--ing bricks. Just extrapolate what he's done here over the extra seven years.