Eric Moulds was on Sirius radio today.

[BADOLBILZ]

You're very wrong about a few things here. He was fabulous in 1999 in the games he played in. He missed nearly 3 full games because of a hamstring that season, but in the 13.2 games he played in, he was a beast. He was also phenomenal again in 2000, particularly when he had a competent NFL qb throwing to him (Flutie). Not surprisingly, the Johnson game numbers weren't as good. Finally, you're completely wrong about when he lost speed. He lost it when he tore his groin at the end of game 5 of 2003 against the Bengals in OT. He was off to one of the best starts in his career that season, and his big catch against the Bengals sealed the victory (it was also the play where he got hurt). After that injury, he was never the same as a runner. The Bills offense also went into the tank after he got hurt, which tells you how well he was playing. He absolutely destroyed the Pats and Jags in games 1 and 2 of that season. Through five games in 2003, he had 30 catches for 457 yards. Averaged out, that's 96 catches for 1463 yards. More than that, he absolutely dominated in 3 of the first 5 games of that season.

 

Come on, Badol -- where's your memory? You're better than ill-informed criticisms like this one.

 

 

 

You're wrong. Check out pro-football-reference.com and your own memory banks.

 

Dave I am not wrong on this, he went from 20 yards per catch in 1998 to 15 in 1999, to 14 in 2000, to 13 in 2001 and 12 in 2002.

 

The stats do not favor your argument at all, my friend. He went from a big time playmaker to a posession receiver.....and not all that exceptional of one at that...... in a very short period of time.

 

And let's keep in mind, Moulds wasn't being used like a WCO receiver. He wasn't being fed 100 receptions on short slant passes. The Bills were trying to get the ball deep to him but he turned into a push-off and come back receiver because he just couldn't consistently get open over the top. He had less success with Johnson throwing because Johnson was tentative about throwing the ball to covered receivers. It was a weakness of his but it underscored the fact that Moulds was being covered. That was part of the revelation that was Bledsoe 2002.....he threw the ball to Moulds even when he was covered...which was most of the time. Is your memory that short? Yes, he was off to a good start in 2003, the whole team was, I remember it well. But it's about the prior 4 seasons of gradual decline Dave. And it's not like he fell off the map after 2003, he just kept steadily declining. That was his trajectory.

[dave mcbride]

 

 

Dave I am not wrong on this, he went from 20 yards per catch in 1998 to 15 in 1999, to 14 in 2000, to 13 in 2001 and 12 in 2002.

 

The stats do not favor your argument at all, my friend. He went from a big time playmaker to a posession receiver.....and not all that exceptional of one at that...... in a very short period of time.

 

And let's keep in mind, Moulds wasn't being used like a WCO receiver. He wasn't being fed 100 receptions on short slant passes. The Bills were trying to get the ball deep to him but he turned into a push-off and come back receiver because he just couldn't consistently get open over the top. He had less success with Johnson throwing because Johnson was tentative about throwing the ball to covered receivers. It was a weakness of his but it underscored the fact that Moulds was being covered. That was part of the revelation that was Bledsoe 2002.....he threw the ball to Moulds even when he was covered...which was most of the time. Is your memory that short? Yes, he was off to a good start in 2003, the whole team was, I remember it well. But it's about the prior 4 seasons of gradual decline Dave. And it's not like he fell off the map after 2003, he just kept steadily declining. That was his trajectory.

 

Come on -- 20 ypc seasons for a guy with 4.51 speed - his time when he was drafted, although he predictably claimed he was a 4.4 guy - are true flukish outliers. 15+ ypc is great by any measure, which is what he was averaging prior to his 03 injury. After 1989, jerry rice never averaged 16 ypc, yet he was great for many years afterward. TO lifetime averaged 14.8 - which is spectacular - but he only barely got over 16 twice. Andre reed only got over 14 once in his career: 16.4 in 1993. Marvin harrison never averaged 15 once in his entire career. Moulds averaged over 15 in 1999 too. Anything over 15 is elite assuming the recipeiver has a lot of catches. I will grant that moulds 1998 season was by far and away the best season by a bills receiver ever.

 

As for johnson, moulds clearly established in 98 that that he was one of those guys who could go up and grab it even when covered. It's too bad johnson was so skittish.

Edited June 19, 2013 by dave mcbride

[BADOLBILZ]

Come on -- 20 ypc seasons for a guy with 4.45 speed is a true flukish outlier. 15+ ypc is great by any measure, which is what he was averaging prior to his 03 injury. After 1989, jerry rice never averaged 16 ypc, yet he was great for many years afterward. TO lifetime averaged 14.8 - which is spectacular - but he only barely got over 16 twice. Andre reed only got over 14 once in his career: 16.4 in 1993. Moulds averaged over 15 in 1999 too. Anything over 15 is elite assuming the recipeiver has a lot of catches. I will grant that moulds 1998 aeason was by far and away the best season by a bills receiver ever.

 

As for johnson, moulds clearly established in 98 that that he was one of those guys who could go up and grab it even when covered.

 

Read: your emphatic argument is BEAT

 

I didn't need the stats to tell you that Moulds had been in decline. I watched him labor as his legs got heavy.

 

Like I said....Moulds wasn't a WCO receiver like Jerry Rice. He was catching 60 passes per year in 1998 and 1999 while Rice was catching dozens of sub-10 yard extended handoffs on his way to 100 catch seasons. Like I said, Moulds game became run deep, or push off and come back. This went on for YEARS. He was a MEAN, aggressive, physical, spit in your face receiver who was no fun for a DB to cover but separation was not his game. By contrast....a guy like Jerry Rice was just always open. Rice was fluid and sudden. Moulds was heavy legged and deliberate. But the point wasn't to compare him to Rice. There were so many other better receivers.

[ganesh]

If only he was around for the superbowl years, one can only imagine how hellatious his numbers would have ended up like. Classy guy with deceptive skills.

Actually not. Firstly, the Bills spread the ball around quite a bit and that is indicative of that Andre Reed never caught more than 80 balls a season. Secondly, in that era, it was a big achievement to get over 100 catches. I don't believe Moulds would have increased his Catch/TD total. In fact, he was the beneficiary of being in some lousy teams. QBs like Flutie, Johnson and Bledsoe did throw to him consistently. The only underachieving year would hvae been the Todd Collins season and Alex Van Pelt Season

[bbb]

I think he was the most talented WR we ever had. Really the only guy who was "open even when they're not open" as Buddy would say.

[hondo in seattle]

You're very wrong about a few things here. He was fabulous in 1999 in the games he played in. He missed nearly 3 full games because of a hamstring that season, but in the 13.2 games he played in, he was a beast. He was also phenomenal again in 2000, particularly when he had a competent NFL qb throwing to him (Flutie). Not surprisingly, the Johnson game numbers weren't as good. Finally, you're completely wrong about when he lost speed. He lost it when he tore his groin at the end of game 5 of 2003 against the Bengals in OT. He was off to one of the best starts in his career that season, and his big catch against the Bengals sealed the victory (it was also the play where he got hurt). After that injury, he was never the same as a runner. The Bills offense also went into the tank after he got hurt, which tells you how well he was playing. He absolutely destroyed the Pats and Jags in games 1 and 2 of that season. Through five games in 2003, he had 30 catches for 457 yards. Averaged out, that's 96 catches for 1463 yards. More than that, he absolutely dominated in 3 of the first 5 games of that season.

 

Come on, Badol -- where's your memory? You're better than ill-informed criticisms like this one.

 

 

 

You're wrong. Check out pro-football-reference.com and your own memory banks.

 

Great memory!

 

I can't recall details like you but I do remember feeling a bit sorry for Moulds when he was playing. If he had played with Kelly and the K-Gun, Canton might have been a possibility.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Post it to the Bills subreddit...where they have an upvote function.

 

 

What?? ... man I'm getting old, don't have a clue on any of this.

[bbb]

I've been on reddit a few times and can't make heads or tails what the heck it is.

 

I read an article in the Buffalo News about a gathering for local redditers, which was held in different cities across the country............The Buffalo gathering got a total of 3 people! One who was complaining about missing a game of World of Warcraft, and two other losers.

[eball]

I have to admit, this is an odd choice for your "hill to die on," BADOLBEELZ. Ease up, dude -- most NFL historians (not to mention Bills fans) would disagree with you.

[dave mcbride]

Read: your emphatic argument is BEAT

 

I didn't need the stats to tell you that Moulds had been in decline. I watched him labor as his legs got heavy.

 

Like I said....Moulds wasn't a WCO receiver like Jerry Rice. He was catching 60 passes per year in 1998 and 1999 while Rice was catching dozens of sub-10 yard extended handoffs on his way to 100 catch seasons. Like I said, Moulds game became run deep, or push off and come back. This went on for YEARS. He was a MEAN, aggressive, physical, spit in your face receiver who was no fun for a DB to cover but separation was not his game. By contrast....a guy like Jerry Rice was just always open. Rice was fluid and sudden. Moulds was heavy legged and deliberate. But the point wasn't to compare him to Rice. There were so many other better receivers.

 

I don't think it's beat. I just showed that he averaged over 15 ypc twice after 1998 prior to injury. He averaged over 14 ypc in 2000, and in the six games Flutie started, he had 33 catches for 519 yards: 15.7 ypc.

 

You need to factor into your argument that Moulds' numbers went down when he had that stiff Johnson throwing to him. He and Flutie were great together.

 

Hell, even in 2001 he did much better with AVP than Johnson. He averaged 14.4 ypc with AVP throwing him the ball (39 receptions for 561 yards) but only 13.5 overall when factoring in the Johnson games.

 

As for 2002, you are correct that Bledsoe was great in 2002 - but only for half a season. In the first 8 games, he had 16 TDs and 5 INTs. He was abysmal in the second half of that year, throwing 8 TDs and 10 INTs. The Bills went 3-5 with a couple of really bad losses. More importantly, in the first 8 games of 2002, Bledsoe averaged 7.87 ypa. In the final 8 games, he averaged 6.37 ypa.

 

The effects on Moulds were predictable. In the first half of that season, Moulds had 57 catches for 797 yards (14.0 ypc). In the second half, he had 43 catches for 495 yards (11.5 ypc).

 

Incidentally, after coming back from his groin tear in 2003, he had 34 catches for 323 yards--less than 10 ypc. He was playing hurt, and he never really recovered for the rest of his career. Your uncomplicated narrative of steady decline doesn't factor any of this in.

Edited June 19, 2013 by dave mcbride

[nucci]

Does Moulds still live in WNY?

He did as of a couple of years ago. My nephew went to school with his son.

[C.Biscuit97]

I think he was the most talented WR we ever had. Really the only guy who was "open even when they're not open" as Buddy would say.

 

How soon we forget about Brad Lamb,

 

Great memory!

 

I can't recall details like you but I do remember feeling a bit sorry for Moulds when he was playing. If he had played with Kelly and the K-Gun, Canton might have been a possibility.

 

You could say that about a ton of wrs after Kelly retired. Moulds played with better QBs than Stevie and Lee (though Evans had Bledsoe as a rookie). IMO, Moulds was a slower, less explosive Andre Johnson.

[dave mcbride]

How soon we forget about Brad Lamb,

 

 

 

You could say that about a ton of wrs after Kelly retired. Moulds played with better QBs than Stevie and Lee (though Evans had Bledsoe as a rookie). IMO, Moulds was a slower, less explosive Andre Johnson.

He was incredibly explosive in 1998. If you add in his playoff game against the Dolphins (who had one of the top defenses in the league that season), he had 76 catches for 1608 yards: 21.2 ypc. Andre Johnson has never come near that.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that Moulds' 1998 season was hands down the best season by Bills receiver ever. He was literally uncoverable, and even when he was covered he'd catch it and occasionally throw the DB to the ground.

Edited June 19, 2013 by dave mcbride

[nucci]

How soon we forget about Brad Lamb,

 

 

 

You could say that about a ton of wrs after Kelly retired. Moulds played with better QBs than Stevie and Lee (though Evans had Bledsoe as a rookie). IMO, Moulds was a slower, less explosive Andre Johnson.

I normally agree with most of your opinions but I can't on this. I think Moulds is on par with Johnson. Very similar players.

[Tipster19]

 

He was incredibly explosive in 1998. If you add in his playoff game against the Dolphins (who had one of the top defenses in the league that season), he had 76 catches for 1608 yards: 21.2 ypc. Andre Johnson has never come near that.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that Moulds' 1998 season was hands down the best season by Bills receiver ever. He was literally uncoverable, and even when he was covered he'd catch it and occasionally throw the DB to the ground.

 

Wow, what a great video, thanks for bringing me back to a happier time! Seeing that we're posting videos here's one that I think that the Buffalo Faithful will enjoy.

 

 

TD Moulds! I never got tired of hearing that! Yeah, Moulds was a beast and anyone who thinks different must of got refused his autograph or something because as a Buffalo fan how could you not be proud of him being a Buffal Bill and not think that he wasn't one of our all time great WR??!!!

 

Btw, wasn't Ty Law the top CB at the time? It was great to see the names of some of our great past players, players like Andre Reed, Reuben Brown, John Fina, Jay Riemersma, Doug Flutie and others! Man, we had some great teams/players! Here's to the Bills being resurrected and getting back to the top of our division. Go Bills!

[Buftex]

I loved Moulds too, but I was a little put off by his last two seasons or so in Buffalo. It almost seemed like that monster year that he and Peerless had, during Bledsoe's first year went to his head a little. I just remeber so many times, watching the game at the bar, and getting the feeling too many times, that Moulds had become more concerned with drawing Pass Interference calls than makig catches. It just seem like he was flapping his arms and whining to the officials on nearly every pass play, sometimes when the ball was still whizzing right over his head. Maybe he was just getting old at that point...but I remember it vividly.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Buftex

[Not at the table Karlos]

 

 

Dave I am not wrong on this, he went from 20 yards per catch in 1998 to 15 in 1999, to 14 in 2000, to 13 in 2001 and 12 in 2002.

 

The stats do not favor your argument at all, my friend. He went from a big time playmaker to a posession receiver.....and not all that exceptional of one at that...... in a very short period of time.

 

And let's keep in mind, Moulds wasn't being used like a WCO receiver. He wasn't being fed 100 receptions on short slant passes. The Bills were trying to get the ball deep to him but he turned into a push-off and come back receiver because he just couldn't consistently get open over the top. He had less success with Johnson throwing because Johnson was tentative about throwing the ball to covered receivers. It was a weakness of his but it underscored the fact that Moulds was being covered. That was part of the revelation that was Bledsoe 2002.....he threw the ball to Moulds even when he was covered...which was most of the time. Is your memory that short? Yes, he was off to a good start in 2003, the whole team was, I remember it well. But it's about the prior 4 seasons of gradual decline Dave. And it's not like he fell off the map after 2003, he just kept steadily declining. That was his trajectory.

 

So according to you Larry Fitzgerald is a bad receiver too because he is covered? If you are covered you don't put up 1000 yard seasons...

[hondo in seattle]

How soon we forget about Brad Lamb,

 

 

 

You could say that about a ton of wrs after Kelly retired. Moulds played with better QBs than Stevie and Lee (though Evans had Bledsoe as a rookie). IMO, Moulds was a slower, less explosive Andre Johnson.

 

Moulds was bigger & stronger than both Stevie and Lee. Lee was a speedster with good hands but not great underneath. Stevie is deceptive, elusive and great underneath - but not a super talented deep threat. And as I recall, Moulds had better hands than Johnson. Moulds, in his prime, was more well-rounded than either Stevie or Lee.

 

Moulds, IMHO, is the best Bills WR post- Andre. If Moulds had played in Reed's spot on the early 90s Bills, he would have produced similar numbers and received similar accolades.

[Not at the table Karlos]

 

 

Wow, what a great video, thanks for bringing me back to a happier time! Seeing that we're posting videos here's one that I think that the Buffalo Faithful will enjoy.

 

 

TD Moulds! I never got tired of hearing that! Yeah, Moulds was a beast and anyone who thinks different must of got refused his autograph or something because as a Buffalo fan how could you not be proud of him being a Buffal Bill and not think that he wasn't one of our all time great WR??!!!

 

Btw, wasn't Ty Law the top CB at the time? It was great to see the names of some of our great past players, players like Andre Reed, Reuben Brown, John Fina, Jay Riemersma, Doug Flutie and others! Man, we had some great teams/players! Here's to the Bills being resurrected and getting back to the top of our division. Go Bills!

 

The lake effect snow warning was epic

[C.Biscuit97]

He was incredibly explosive in 1998. If you add in his playoff game against the Dolphins (who had one of the top defenses in the league that season), he had 76 catches for 1608 yards: 21.2 ypc. Andre Johnson has never come near that.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that Moulds' 1998 season was hands down the best season by Bills receiver ever. He was literally uncoverable, and even when he was covered he'd catch it and occasionally throw the DB to the ground.

 

Agreed. He was an animal that season. It's funny that so many people wanted that QB who got him the ball out of town so bad.

 

I normally agree with most of your opinions but I can't on this. I think Moulds is on par with Johnson. Very similar players.

 

I think Johnson is a more elite talent but it's pretty close. But it's the problem in evaluating receivers. It's such a dependent position. If Moulds got to play with a Brady or Manning, he's a Hall of Famer.

 

Moulds was bigger & stronger than both Stevie and Lee. Lee was a speedster with good hands but not great underneath. Stevie is deceptive, elusive and great underneath - but not a super talented deep threat. And as I recall, Moulds had better hands than Johnson. Moulds, in his prime, was more well-rounded than either Stevie or Lee.

 

Moulds, IMHO, is the best Bills WR post- Andre. If Moulds had played in Reed's spot on the early 90s Bills, he would have produced similar numbers and received similar accolades.

 

Agreed. But again, it's why evaluating receivers is so difficult. If Lee Evans was playing with Manning, why couldn't he have had a career like Marvin Harrison? If Stevie Johnson played with Brady, he is considered an elite receiver. But for the most part, receivers aren't winning you football games. Without good oline and QB play, even the best receiver is wasted.