jamestown-cuse Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Every time I look at the 1st round in the 2011 draft I throw up in my mouth a little bit. I'm not ready to believe that this young man can't be a difference maker but if you look at the list and the guys we had a shot at that are making a big impact every Sunday in the NFL, you probably will too, http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/index Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 I am not saying he is a bust, either, but this post is definitely off the wall...I mean, it's not even out of left field. rookies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcelstephon Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Every time I look at the 1st round in the 2011 draft I throw up in my mouth a little bit. I'm not ready to believe that this young man can't be a difference maker but if you look at the list and the guys we had a shot at that are making a big impact every Sunday in the NFL, you probably will too, http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/index Your over reacting sir, take a breath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Every time I look at the 1st round in the 2011 draft I throw up in my mouth a little bit. I'm not ready to believe that this young man can't be a difference maker but if you look at the list and the guys we had a shot at that are making a big impact every Sunday in the NFL, you probably will too, http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/index Off the top of my head, there are at least seven players selected after marcel that would have been better picks. How is the orignal post an over-reaction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offside Number 76 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Off the top of my head, there are at least seven players selected after marcel that would have been better picks. How is the orignal post an over-reaction? Stop it. Even with your math, which probably includes guys like Christian Ponder, everyone from that class is unproven.There is nothing to suggest that Dareus is a bust (which, because of, and not in spite of, the OP's thread title, is EXACTLY he was suggesting), much less that he was drafted too early, at this point in his career or in the career of anyone else in the 2011 draft class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcre Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 He's definitely got bust potential at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFergy Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 In hind sight (right this moment) I'd take JJ Watt or Pat Peterson over MD...Von Miller was off the board so he doesn't factor into this at all. But MD may explode with containment, pressure, sacks at any moment so I'm ok with the pick...I'll revisit this issue next year after games 1-7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garion Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I have worries myself. He doesn't have to be a complete player but look at wgr550s grading of the line play after each game he isn't doing well at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I'm not worried about Dareus long term. He's having some issues this season but I'm confident he will pull out of it. I suspect that some of it is psychological. He's well down the list of problems on defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I hate hindsight analysis. It's the most futile argument one can make. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) Stop it. Even with your math, which probably includes guys like Christian Ponder, everyone from that class is unproven.There is nothing to suggest that Dareus is a bust (which, because of, and not in spite of, the OP's thread title, is EXACTLY he was suggesting), much less that he was drafted too early, at this point in his career or in the career of anyone else in the 2011 draft class. No, I was not thinking of Ponder, but now that you mention it . . . . Not sure how you can say "there is nothing to suggest that Dareus is a bust." There is actually quite a bit of evidence that he is headed to Bustville, namely the first seven games of this season and the oveall lack of impact he had last year. That is certainly not "nothing". In the meantime, Aldon Smith, JJ Watt, Julius Jones, Patrick Peterson, AJ Green, and Kerrigan are well on their way to establishing themselves as perrenial Pro Bowl players. Time to face the facts. Care to argue any of the above named players? Edited October 25, 2012 by mannc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offside Number 76 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 No, I was not thinking of Ponder, but now that you mention it . . . . Not sure how you can say "there is nothing to suggest that Dareus is a bust." There is actually quite a bit of evidence that he is headed to Bustville, namely the first seven games of this season and the oveall lack of impact he had last year. That is certainly not "nothing". In the meantime, Aldon Smith, JJ Watt, Julius Jones, Patrick Peterson, AJ Green, and Kerrigan are well on their way to establishing themselves as perrenial Pro Bowl players. Time to face the facts. Care to argue any of the above named players? Perennial pro-bowl players. What would you have thought of Mario Williams after 1.5 years? Is that what it takes for you? Two pumps and a shake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FitzShowUsYourTitz Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) Every time I look at the 1st round in the 2011 draft I throw up in my mouth a little bit. I'm not ready to believe that this young man can't be a difference maker but if you look at the list and the guys we had a shot at that are making a big impact every Sunday in the NFL, you probably will too, http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/index "I'm not saying Marcell is a bust but...".....I am totally implying it in way I think is very coy. Edited October 25, 2012 by Cville Bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Perennial pro-bowl players. What would you have thought of Mario Williams after 1.5 years? Is that what it takes for you? Two pumps and a shake? Do you seriously think any GM in the NFL would trade any of those six players for Dareus right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamestown-cuse Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 I am not saying he is a bust, either, but this post is definitely off the wall...I mean, it's not even out of left field. rookies! It's just a conversation piece tough guy. Take your members only jacket and go play some cricket at your castle in the sky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offside Number 76 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Do you seriously think any GM in the NFL would trade any of those six players for Dareus right now? Do you honestly think any GM in the NFL gives "final grades" on a guy after one and a half seasons? And if so, that those grades on Dareus would be negative? "I'm not saying Marcell is a bust but...".....I am totally implying it in what I think is very coy. Right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I hate hindsight analysis. It's the most futile argument one can make. GO BILLS!!! Well Ngata > Whitner was foresight and the kool-aid crowd complained every time that was brought up too. Granted, Dareus is different as it was almost unanimous we should take him. But I don't think it's asking too much for our front office to be better at this than random fans on message boards. Sadly they have not been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFergy Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I hate hindsight analysis. It's the most futile argument one can make. GO BILLS!!! Isn't hindsight analysis a reflection of front office/GM skill in draft selections...for instance, rather than Aaron Maybin, we should have drafted....ohhhh, I don't know, my 72 yr old aunt with a glass eye and a wooden leg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddenboy Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 for anybody not as lazy as me, it would be interesting to go back and look at his college highlight reel before posting a reply here. Sure, nfl caliber offensive linemen, blah blah blah. But SEC caliber linemen. But what I recall is that he was 100% effort in college. Now, notsomuch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamestown-cuse Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 "I'm not saying Marcell is a bust but...".....I am totally implying it in what I think is very coy. I'm really not saying he's a bust. One would just hope that with being picked so high in the draft we would be at least talking about him as the teams defensive MVP any given week of the year. Do you really feel he's having the same impact on this defense as Von Miller is in Denver. I just don't understand why people try to be confrontational just for the sake of doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Do you honestly think any GM in the NFL gives "final grades" on a guy after one and a half seasons? And if so, that those grades on Dareus would be negative? Right! You did not answer my question, and I don't know what you mean by "final grades". I think good GM's are constantly evaluating the players on their rosters and on other teams' rosters. And I did not say that Dareus is a bust; only that the available evidence, while not complete, does not look favorable, especially when he is compared to others taken later in the same round of the draft. I'm not sure how you can deny that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) Isn't hindsight analysis a reflection of front office/GM skill in draft selections...for instance, rather than Aaron Maybin, we should have drafted....ohhhh, I don't know, my 72 yr old aunt with a glass eye and a wooden leg. Get real. If you can't prove you'd have done a better job than our GMs by sitting on your couch on Saturdays getting paid nothing without access to film or scouts under you or interviewing the players themselves or countless other resources front offices do, you have no right to say they've done a bad job. Edited October 25, 2012 by BuffOrange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 If only Stevie hangs on to that TD against Pittsburgh..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFergy Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I'm really not saying he's a bust. One would just hope that with being picked so high in the draft we would be at least talking about him as the teams defensive MVP any given week of the year. Do you really feel he's having the same impact on this defense as Von Miller is in Denver. I just don't understand why people try to be confrontational just for the sake of doing so. Von Miller wasn't available but JJ Watt and Patrick Peterson were...I agree with you though. However, big Marcell needs a little more time until he is branded a bust. If only Stevie hangs on to that TD against Pittsburgh..... I'm very happy with SJ as a 7th rounder...Marcell as 3rd overall...jury still out when compared to JJ Watt right now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offside Number 76 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I'm really not saying he's a bust. One would just hope that with being picked so high in the draft we would be at least talking about him as the teams defensive MVP any given week of the year. Do you really feel he's having the same impact on this defense as Von Miller is in Denver. I just don't understand why people try to be confrontational just for the sake of doing so. Maybe because people have to post overly-provocative topic statements just for the sake of doing so. You did not answer my question, and I don't know what you mean by "final grades". I think good GM's are constantly evaluating the players on their rosters and on other teams' rosters. And I did not say that Dareus is a bust; only that the available evidence, while not complete, does not look favorable, especially when he is compared to others taken later in the same round of the draft. I'm not sure how you can deny that. I'm not going to answer your question. It is a stupid question. After 1.5 years, who was the smart "keep?" Chris Doleman? Al Toon? Bruce Smith? After 1.5 years, who was the smart "keep?" Sterling Sharpe? Keith Jackson? Thurman Thomas? See the problem? It's a stupid question after 1.5 years. I don't care how freaking good Julio Jones was last year or this. It means nothing long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamestown-cuse Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 Von Miller wasn't available but JJ Watt and Patrick Peterson were...I agree with you though. However, big Marcell needs a little more time until he is branded a bust. I understand that but you know what I mean. With the 3rd pick in the draft I really think the guy should be a difference maker. With that said, he is definitely worthy of being a starting DT in the league. It would just be a good problem having Kyle Williams as the second best interior lineman on the roster. Maybe because people have to post overly-provocative topic statements just for the sake of doing so. I'm not going to answer your question. It is a stupid question. After 1.5 years, who was the smart "keep?" Chris Doleman? Al Toon? Bruce Smith? After 1.5 years, who was the smart "keep?" Sterling Sharpe? Keith Jackson? Thurman Thomas? See the problem? It's a stupid question after 1.5 years. I don't care how freaking good Julio Jones was last year or this. It means nothing long term. Yeah, let's compare draft classes from the 80's to the youngsters coming out of college today. That's cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offside Number 76 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) I understand that but you know what I mean. With the 3rd pick in the draft I really think the guy should be a difference maker. With that said, he is definitely worthy of being a starting DT in the league. It would just be a good problem having Kyle Williams as the second best interior lineman on the roster. Yeah, let's compare draft classes from the 80's to the youngsters coming out of college today. That's cool. You got nothin'. I understand. Dareus MUST be worse than your six favs. Edited October 25, 2012 by Offsides Number 76 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFergy Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I understand that but you know what I mean. With the 3rd pick in the draft I really think the guy should be a difference maker. With that said, he is definitely worthy of being a starting DT in the league. It would just be a good problem having Kyl,e Williams as the second best interior lineman on the roster. Preachin to the choir brother...Mario might be throwin all these guys off a bit. Glad Kelsay stepped up and laid it out...they are all men, all have white bones, bleed red, bruise blue ...some have weak wrists. Hopefully it is fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Maybe because people have to post overly-provocative topic statements just for the sake of doing so. I'm not going to answer your question. It is a stupid question. After 1.5 years, who was the smart "keep?" Chris Doleman? Al Toon? Bruce Smith? After 1.5 years, who was the smart "keep?" Sterling Sharpe? Keith Jackson? Thurman Thomas? See the problem? It's a stupid question after 1.5 years. I don't care how freaking good Julio Jones was last year or this. It means nothing long term. Cherry-picking examples at different positions than DT (traditionally not really a position that has a steep learning curve) from 25 yrs ago doesn't mean it's a stupid question. What about William Joseph or Dewayne Robertson or Glenn Dorsey - how did their careers start out? If you haven't heard of the first two guys I don't blame you. AJ Green already being a consensus top 3 WR in year 2 with a mediocre QB does not mean nothing. He's going to have a monster career barring injury and everyone knows it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I hate hindsight analysis. It's the most futile argument one can make. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamestown-cuse Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 Cherry-picking examples at different positions than DT (traditionally not really a position that has a steep learning curve) from 25 yrs ago doesn't mean it's a stupid question. What about William Joseph or Dewayne Robertson or Glenn Dorsey - how did their careers start out? If you haven't heard of the first two guys I don't blame you. AJ Green already being a consensus top 3 WR in year 2 with a mediocre QB does not mean nothing. He's going to have a monster career barring injury and everyone knows it. For real! I can't stress enough that I don't think he'll be out of the league in a couple years but there are quite a few guys at his position who have been drafted highly and made an immediate impact. Offensive coordinators and QB's have nightmares thinking about guys like Suh, Ngata, and Raji. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFergy Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Nice try Hindsight...you've been spotted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offside Number 76 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I'm not saying it's aliens, but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Well Ngata > Whitner was foresight and the kool-aid crowd complained every time that was brought up too. Granted, Dareus is different as it was almost unanimous we should take him. But I don't think it's asking too much for our front office to be better at this than random fans on message boards. Sadly they have not been. Then by all means, go ahead and make an intelligent 'foresight' argument. Don't let me stop you. Perhaps you can start by going through the archives and linking all those posts saying we should have taken ____________ instead of Dareus. Not sure how revisiting the Ngata/Whitner debate is germane though. There were numerous posters demanding we take Ngata AT THE TIME. GO BILLS!!! Isn't hindsight analysis a reflection of front office/GM skill in draft selections...for instance, rather than Aaron Maybin, we should have drafted....ohhhh, I don't know, my 72 yr old aunt with a glass eye and a wooden leg. But that's not what we're talking here. We are talking about passing on the consensus best defensive player in the draft in Dareus in favor of 7 players that NOBODY suggested we take at the time. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 No, I was not thinking of Ponder, but now that you mention it . . . . Not sure how you can say "there is nothing to suggest that Dareus is a bust." There is actually quite a bit of evidence that he is headed to Bustville, namely the first seven games of this season and the oveall lack of impact he had last year. That is certainly not "nothing". In the meantime, Aldon Smith, JJ Watt, Julius Jones, Patrick Peterson, AJ Green, and Kerrigan are well on their way to establishing themselves as perrenial Pro Bowl players. Time to face the facts. Care to argue any of the above named players? Sure will... Aldon Smith is a situational pass-rusher on a top-5 defense. With memories of Aaron Maybin fresh on their minds, we didn't have the luxury of such a pick. Pat Peterson has been a special teams ace, something we have many of. Last week I watched our 7th rd WR abuse him. And just imagine if Fitz hit him the other five times he was open... AJ Green and Watt are studs so I won't go there, but did you or anyone for that matter think Watt was this good. But be lazy and use the hindsight argument... Julio Jones went to a team with an established young QB and a Pro Bowl WR opposite of him. As for Dareus, you make it sound like he didn't do anything last year either, other than lead his team in sacks w/ little help on that d-line and make the All-Rookie team. Has he been disappointing this year? Yes, no doubt. But 23 games into his NFL career with 7 total sacks and you're labeling him a bust makes you look lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFergy Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Then by all means, go ahead and make an intelligent 'foresight' argument. Don't let me stop you. Perhaps you can start by going through the archives and linking all those posts saying we should have taken ____________ instead of Dareus. Not sure how revisiting the Ngata/Whitner debate is germane though. There were numerous posters demanding we take Ngata AT THE TIME. GO BILLS!!! But that's not what we're talking here. We are talking about passing on the consensus best defensive player in the draft in Dareus in favor of 7 players that NOBODY suggested we take at the time. GO BILLS!!! I know what you mean...and I think Dareus is a monster...my critique is more in the line of Maybin (not a consensus pick...). If you could have JJ Watt RIGHT NOW...then that is the comparison we are talking about. The quickness of the player's impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) May i suggest.. that when the whole defense sucks. and they kinda do. pointing fingers at a single player is futile. I was/am a big fan of drafting Marcel and him as a Buffalo Bill. For those folks that watch the games closely and even the ones that rewind the plays over and over, Dareus is struggling. He looks weak and tired and maybe getting out of condition or nicked up physically. But i will continue to believe the coaches are not in Firm control of our defense as they should be. If they remove Williams's personal fridge i think the Team improves. M D is a Bill. Go Kyle Moore!! Go Bills Edited October 25, 2012 by 3rdand12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Von Miller wasn't available but JJ Watt and Patrick Peterson were...I agree with you though. However, big Marcell needs a little more time until he is branded a bust. I'm very happy with SJ as a 7th rounder...Marcell as 3rd overall...jury still out when compared to JJ Watt right now... JJ Watt had the same amount of sacks as a rush OLB as Dareus did as a 3-4 NT/ DE last year. He's exploded this year on a defense that was #1 last year and loaded with pass rushers. How many of you have had your younger brother randomly murdered? How would that affect you? But I guess since the guy is making millions, he should be a robot and just perform. If this scenario happened to me, my priorities would change quite a bit too. Some things are more important than football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Then by all means, go ahead and make an intelligent 'foresight' argument. Don't let me stop you. Perhaps you can start by going through the archives and linking all those posts saying we should have taken ____________ instead of Dareus. Not sure how revisiting the Ngata/Whitner debate is germane though. There were numerous posters demanding we take Ngata AT THE TIME. GO BILLS!!! If you can't prove you'd have done a better job than our GMs by sitting on your couch on Saturdays getting paid nothing without access to film or scouts under you or interviewing the players themselves or countless other resources front offices do, you have no right to say they've done a bad job. [/sarcasm] Again, I don't understand the notion fans need to prove they would make better GM's to have the right to criticize our Front Office. Shouldn't the burden of proof be on our Front Office who is actually getting paid good $ and has all these resources we don't that they're better than the fans at these personnel decisions? I would say there is very little evidence of that they are. This is probably why we've sucked for 13 years. Ozzie Newsome being better at drafting than beer guzzling Ravens fans is probably why they haven't sucked. So I guess I don't understand your obsession with this "prove you're a qualified NFL GM or STFU" mindset. It's like saying the QB is off limits to criticism if you can't throw a better ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I have it on inside information from players on the team that dareus is an absolute beast (ie, like the best defensive player on the team), but suffers from mental lapses. I would think this means that he's young and he'll figure out how to play with more consistency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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