Ralph and Polian

[Bob in STL]

I just read two more post that said that "Ralph fired Polain". That makes it the 1,789,357th time I have read this on TSW.

 

My recollection is that Polian quit. Ralph did not fire him and Ralph did not want ask him to quit. I seem to recall this sequence of events:

 

1. While working as GM for Buffalo, Polian was a member of a committee put together by then commissioner Paul Tagliabue to help establish rules for the free agency/ salary cap situation that was coming into place. Polian was trying to lock up all the important Bills players to long term deals to prevent losing his team to free agency. He signed Cornelius Bennett to a lucrative deal even though he still had years on his contract. He was preparing to do the same with Will Wolford when Littman intervened.

 

2. Littman and Polian did not get along very well. Polian used to delight in blowing him off. The two feuded often and put Wilson in the middle of it. In this case Wilson sided with Littman and Wilford was not re-signed during the season. Littman was a long time friend. Ralph blew it.

 

3. Polian was upset about the interference and he announced he would be leaving after the season. He stayed with the team until after the Super Bowl. He was not fired.

 

4. Linda Bogdans (Wilsons daughter) role with the club had nothing to do with it. Whether Polian liked her or not was not material. There is a myth on TSW that she was part of the reason that Wilson fired her. I say this is not true.

 

5. Wilford, now a free agent, signed a monster deal (for the times) with the Colts in the off-season. New Bills GM John Butler matched the offer but the NFL ruled against Buffalo due to the famous escalator clause the Colts put into the offer that the Bills would not match. The clause stated that Wilford would be the highest paid player on the Colts for so many years. That clause was eliminated immediately after the Wilford ruling, partly due to Polian, who took a job working for Tagliabue after he left the Bills.

 

So, I submit that Wilson did not fire Polian. If I am wrong then flame away and tell me what really happened. If I am right then please stop saying that he did.

 

I think it is important that we get this right. Thanks!

Edited October 16, 2010 by Bob in STL

[Sisyphean Bills]

http://www.allbusiness.com/labor-employment/compensation-benefits-wages-salaries/10556737-1.html

 

On Feb. 4, 1993, after the Bills had appeared in-and lost-their third straight Super Bowl, Buffalo fired Polian. He lost his job, insiders said, because he couldn't get along with team Treasurer Jeff Littmann. Bills owner Ralph Wilson, Littmann and Polian would never discuss the matter.

[Bob in STL]

http://www.allbusiness.com/labor-employment/compensation-benefits-wages-salaries/10556737-1.html

 

They say fired. Thanks for the nice reference.

 

With no one talking I am not sure we know. I recall at the time he said he quit.

Edited October 16, 2010 by Bob in STL

[Jeff Wright's Mullet]

They say fired. Thanks for the nice reference.

 

With no one talking I am not sure we know. I recall at the time he said he quit.

Bill Polian WAS FIRED by Ralph Wilson. This is because he did not get along with Jeffrey Littmann (Ralph's bean counter). Ralph wanted to fire Polian at the begining of 93 but was talked out of it by Marv Levy. He then FIRED Bill Polian after the Superbowl loss. Why anyone would try to defend Ralph or Littmann I have no idea. The root of this franchise's problems can be pinned on both of those morons. They have been the only constant over these last 30 years.

[BillsVet]

So can I continue saying RW fired Polian now?

 

Two common denominators to the Bills' repeated failures: RW and Littman. And that is not up for debate.

Edited October 16, 2010 by BillsVet

[thewildrabbit]

Bill Polian WAS FIRED by Ralph Wilson. This is because he did not get along with Jeffrey Littmann (Ralph's bean counter). Ralph wanted to fire Polian at the begining of 93 but was talked out of it by Marv Levy. He then FIRED Bill Polian after the Superbowl loss. Why anyone would try to defend Ralph or Littmann I have no idea. The root of this franchise's problems can be pinned on both of those morons. They have been the only constant over these last 30 years.

We can put this to rest now: From the Buffalo news and a story by Vic Carucci Dated Feb 4th 1993 http://www.highbeam....2-22491923.html

""Buffalo Bills owner Ralph C. Wilson Jr. said that his "personal and professional differences" with Bill Polian in the last three years led to the firing of the most successful general manager in team history.

 

In an exclusive interview with The Buffalo News, Wilson confirmed that the main reason for the dismissal was the turbulent relationship between Polian and Jeff Littmann, treasurer of Wilson's Detroit-based company.

 

"They didn't get along well," Wilson said from his winter home in West Palm Beach, Fla. "I'm being very honest, there was some friction there. It (made for) an uncomfortable feeling on my part. And I just thought it was time to make a change and …""

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. Another rumor I heard while at the SB was that RW was livid at Bill Polian because his brother had a Bills playbook, or had taken one, or somehow had lost one, or somehow the opposing team had gotten hold of one. All I can remember is that Polian's brother who was in charge of team security was responsible for the missing playbook and RW was extremely pissed about the whole situation. Anyone else recall anything about this or can verify it at all?

 

 

[Thoner7]

Whats wrong with Littmen to let them shell out 24 Mil to Kelsay!?!?!??!

[Bob in STL]

Bill Polian WAS FIRED by Ralph Wilson. This is because he did not get along with Jeffrey Littmann (Ralph's bean counter). Ralph wanted to fire Polian at the begining of 93 but was talked out of it by Marv Levy. He then FIRED Bill Polian after the Superbowl loss. Why anyone would try to defend Ralph or Littmann I have no idea. The root of this franchise's problems can be pinned on both of those morons. They have been the only constant over these last 30 years.

 

 

I guess I have seen enough, the Carucci article has the most crediiblity with me.

 

I was not trying to defend anyone. Read my original post. Just looking for some facts.

 

So can I continue saying RW fired Polian now?

 

Two common denominators to the Bills' repeated failures: RW and Littman. And that is not up for debate.

 

 

Sure. Continue to blast away.

Edited October 16, 2010 by Bob in STL

[Chalkie Gerzowski]

Baloney... he called Linda Bogdan a tranny.

 

[spartacus]

The trigger event was an altercation between Polian and Linda Bogden during a draft.

 

Ralph had the brilliant idea to make his daughter a scout and have her involved in the draft.

 

Rumor has it that she was scouting offensive linemen.  Polian put a premium on a strong OL and got flak from Bogden in the draft room about selections.

 

He called her a bad word and Ralph was pissed. Seems he was so pissed that he has refused to build a strong OL since Polian left, just to spite him and his philosophy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BillsVet]

Sure. Continue to blast away.

 

We've seen it far too often where people gang up and destroy someone who makes an ill-advised post or statement. None of that should take place here and you were humble enough to admit you were wrong. It's just really hard to imagine RW firing the architect of the greatest run in franchise history, but this remains the truth.

 

Watching Polian go onto success with CAR and IND is like seeing the girl you once dated get a better guy after you dumped her.

[DarthICE]

I guess I have seen enough, the Carucci article has the most crediiblity with me.

 

I was not trying to defend anyone. Read my original post. Just looking for some facts.

 

 

 

 

Sure. Continue to blast away.

 

 

Facts are he was fired.

[Nanker]

Bill Polian, builder of FIVE SuperBowl Losing teams.

That's got to be a record.

Yes, let's continue to live in the past.

BEHERENOWNOWBEHEREBEHERENOWNOWBEHERE

[DarthICE]

Bill Polian, builder of FIVE SuperBowl Losing teams.

That's got to be a record.

Yes, let's continue to live in the past.

BEHERENOWNOWBEHEREBEHERENOWNOWBEHERE

 

 

Five Losers? I could have sworn that Indy won a Superbowl just a couple years ago. But hey, lets not let facts get in the way.

[spartacus]

Bill Polian, builder of FIVE SuperBowl Losing teams.

That's got to be a record.

Yes, let's continue to live in the past.

BEHERENOWNOWBEHEREBEHERENOWNOWBEHERE

not making the playoffs for more than a decade is so much better for the fans

[Sisyphean Bills]

Five Losers? I could have sworn that Indy won a Superbowl just a couple years ago. But hey, lets not let facts get in the way.

Who'd want their team to be the winningest in the NFL?

[nucci]

I just read two more post that said that "Ralph fired Polain". That makes it the 1,789,357th time I have read this on TSW.

 

My recollection is that Polian quit. Ralph did not fire him and Ralph did not want ask him to quit. I seem to recall this sequence of events:

 

1. While working as GM for Buffalo, Polian was a member of a committee put together by then commissioner Paul Tagliabue to help establish rules for the free agency/ salary cap situation that was coming into place. Polian was trying to lock up all the important Bills players to long term deals to prevent losing his team to free agency. He signed Cornelius Bennett to a lucrative deal even though he still had years on his contract. He was preparing to do the same with Will Wolford when Littman intervened.

 

2. Littman and Polian did not get along very well. Polian used to delight in blowing him off. The two feuded often and put Wilson in the middle of it. In this case Wilson sided with Littman and Wilford was not re-signed during the season. Littman was a long time friend. Ralph blew it.

 

3. Polian was upset about the interference and he announced he would be leaving after the season. He stayed with the team until after the Super Bowl. He was not fired.

 

4. Linda Bogdan’s (Wilson’s daughter) role with the club had nothing to do with it. Whether Polian liked her or not was not material. There is a myth on TSW that she was part of the reason that Wilson fired her. I say this is not true.

 

5. Wilford, now a free agent, signed a monster deal (for the times) with the Colts in the off-season. New Bills GM John Butler matched the offer but the NFL ruled against Buffalo due to the famous “escalator clause” the Colts put into the offer that the Bills would not match. The clause stated that Wilford would be the highest paid player on the Colts for so many years. That clause was eliminated immediately after the Wilford ruling, partly due to Polian, who took a job working for Tagliabue after he left the Bills.

 

So, I submit that Wilson did not fire Polian. If I am wrong then flame away and tell me what really happened. If I am right then please stop saying that he did.

 

I think it is important that we get this right. Thanks!

It's been 17 years. You haven't moved on yet? What are you waiting for?

[Bob in STL]

It's been 17 years. You haven't moved on yet? What are you waiting for?

 

 

I have moved on long ago. That is probably why I thought he quit rather than got fired. Seems like ages ago to me.

[thewildrabbit]

The trigger event was an altercation between Polian and Linda Bogden during a draft.

 

Ralph had the brilliant idea to make his daughter a scout and have her involved in the draft.

 

Rumor has it that she was scouting offensive linemen. Polian put a premium on a strong OL and got flak from Bogden in the draft room about selections.

 

He called her a bad word and Ralph was pissed. Seems he was so pissed that he has refused to build a strong OL since Polian left, just to spite him and his philosophy.

 

If I'm not mistaken Linda Bogden was a darn good scout and found Eric Moulds and other WR's for the team, never heard of her scouting O linemen tho. From what I understand she did her job well.

 

Polian was know for a fiery temperament and I'm sure he bumped heads with lots of people, never saw it get in the way of his doing his job correctly

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spiderweb]

We can put this to rest now: From the Buffalo news and a story by Vic Carucci Dated Feb 4th 1993 http://www.highbeam....2-22491923.html

""Buffalo Bills owner Ralph C. Wilson Jr. said that his "personal and professional differences" with Bill Polian in the last three years led to the firing of the most successful general manager in team history.

 

In an exclusive interview with The Buffalo News, Wilson confirmed that the main reason for the dismissal was the turbulent relationship between Polian and Jeff Littmann, treasurer of Wilson's Detroit-based company.

 

"They didn't get along well," Wilson said from his winter home in West Palm Beach, Fla. "I'm being very honest, there was some friction there. It (made for) an uncomfortable feeling on my part. And I just thought it was time to make a change and …""

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. Another rumor I heard while at the SB was that RW was livid at Bill Polian because his brother had a Bills playbook, or had taken one, or somehow had lost one, or somehow the opposing team had gotten hold of one. All I can remember is that Polian's brother who was in charge of team security was responsible for the missing playbook and RW was extremely pissed about the whole situation. Anyone else recall anything about this or can verify it at all?

 

 

Thanks for the confirmation....

 

My memory of it was verified. I still recall hearing the announcement on a local news show in Dayton Ohio. I was so angry at the time.....

[NaPolian8693]

I've heard that there was truth to the rumor that he also had an argument with Ralph's daughter.

 

I'm sure he was at odds with many people in the organization:

 

This guy comes in here with his winning ways and tries to change the entire culture of the franchise?! Who the hell does he think he is?

[Thurman#1]

I've heard that there was truth to the rumor that he also had an argument with Ralph's daughter.

 

I'm sure he was at odds with many people in the organization:

 

This guy comes in here with his winning ways and tries to change the entire culture of the franchise?! Who the hell does he think he is?

 

 

 

Me too.

 

Supposedly Ms. Bogdan did indeed turn into a fine scout, but this was early in her career before she had developed as much acumen. And Polian did not suffer fools gladly. I's sad, because if they had managed to get past this, they might have eventually come to respect each other.

[Nanker]

Five Losers? I could have sworn that Indy won a Superbowl just a couple years ago. But hey, lets not let facts get in the way.

 

The "facts" are they his Bills lost four in a row, and his Colts lost last year too.

But, let's relive the glory years again in our head.

He's not coming back. Get used to it. That's reality.

[The Senator]

Five Losers? I could have sworn that Indy won a Superbowl just a couple years ago. But hey, lets not let facts get in the way.

Actually, it was over 4 years ago. But hey, the aging NE Cheatriettes* and their idiot fans still think they're a dynasty too, because they won one over 6 years ago.

[John from Riverside]

We've seen it far too often where people gang up and destroy someone who makes an ill-advised post or statement. None of that should take place here and you were humble enough to admit you were wrong. It's just really hard to imagine RW firing the architect of the greatest run in franchise history, but this remains the truth.

 

Watching Polian go onto success with CAR and IND is like seeing the girl you once dated get a better guy after you dumped her.

 

Best post I have ever seen you make.

 

Truer words were never spoken....that is exactly how I feel about the situation.....

[Guest dog14787]

The trigger event was an altercation between Polian and Linda Bogden during a draft.

 

Ralph had the brilliant idea to make his daughter a scout and have her involved in the draft.

 

Rumor has it that she was scouting offensive linemen.  Polian put a premium on a strong OL and got flak from Bogden in the draft room about selections.

 

He called her a bad word and Ralph was pissed. Seems he was so pissed that he has refused to build a strong OL since Polian left, just to spite him and his philosophy.

 

 

Thurman Thomas brought this up recently on twitter, (just a couple of days ago actually),he tweeted "I bet nobody can guess the real reason Bill Polian departed from Buffalo" My instant response back to him was the incident between Polian and Wilson's daughter. Thurman Thomas ignored my response and never even answered the question he asked everyone which is a real rude way to treat your followers in my opinion. My guess was I got it right and Thomas chose to ignore me.

 

I also asked Thurman Thomas on twitter recently if under the circumstances shouldn't fans be upset with the product RW is putting on the field over the last decade. Thurman's response back was, "would you rather have an owner like Dan Snyder?"

 

Duh, yes,Umm Thurman, they do have a pretty decent coach and QB and they are winning their division,( didn't reply this back to Thurman)

 

You know its folks like Thurman Thomas, Jim Kelly, and Steve Tasker that are part of this Franchises problem, three very vocal individuals all stuck in the past constantly putting pressure on a weary old man.

[JohnC]

It's been 17 years. You haven't moved on yet? What are you waiting for?

 

You are right that it is time to move on. But for the sake of history and analysis the firing of Polian was the pivot point when the franchise went from being one of the best run and successful franchises to becoming a dysfunctional and losing franchise.

 

The friction between Polian and Littman (Wilson's financial representative) certainly had a personal aspect to it. But the substance of the conflict was really about how the team was going to be run. Polian's side of the operation certainly wanted to remain competitive; while Littman's side of the operation tilted toward containing costs and squeezing profits out of the piggy.

 

All franchises go through this push/pull (football/business) tug of war. There is nothing unusual about that. However, after the Polian/Littman battle was settled with Littman prevailing the owner overly tilted toward the cash/flow considerations compared to the football operations. When Butler/A.J. Smith left the primary reason for their leaving had to do with the owner becoming more stern on how the money was managed. Whether they got fired or not is not worth debating because they were going to leave anyway.

 

The Bills are what they are and the organization is what it is because of the owner. That can't be disputed. The irony is that the less involved Wilson is in the operation of the team and the more involved the football people Nix/Gailey/Whaley are in managing the operation the better chance this franchise has in turning things around.

[Another Point of View]

I say,and I still believe that Linda Bodgan was behind the scene aggravation and a direct spy to his father.

 

Believe what you want but she did have something to do with Bill leaving Buffalo.

[Guest dog14787]

I say,and I still believe that Linda Bodgan was behind the scene aggravation and a direct spy to his father.

 

Believe what you want but she did have something to do with Bill leaving Buffalo.

 

My memory is horrible and I wish I could remember, SDS has made it almost impossible now to trace anything back, but seems like the war room incident was confirmed by someone with an inside track, maybe Graham or Warrow or even Lori was discussing it once upon a time,

 

So maybe Lori will see this post and chime in,

[DarthICE]

The "facts" are they his Bills lost four in a row, and his Colts lost last year too.

But, let's relive the glory years again in our head.

He's not coming back. Get used to it. That's reality.

 

 

Thanks for ignoring the FACT he is the best GM of our time, he builds consistent winners and his team HAS won a superbowl. Yeah I want to relive the glory years, that is all we have with this moronic owner of ours

[Bob in STL]

Thurman Thomas brought this up recently on twitter, (just a couple of days ago actually),he tweeted "I bet nobody can guess the real reason Bill Polian departed from Buffalo" My instant response back to him was the incident between Polian and Wilson's daughter. Thurman Thomas ignored my response and never even answered the question he asked everyone which is a real rude way to treat your followers in my opinion. My guess was I got it right and Thomas chose to ignore me.

 

I also asked Thurman Thomas on twitter recently if under the circumstances shouldn't fans be upset with the product RW is putting on the field over the last decade. Thurman's response back was, "would you rather have an owner like Dan Snyder?"

 

Duh, yes,Umm Thurman, they do have a pretty decent coach and QB and they are winning their division,( didn't reply this back to Thurman)

 

You know its folks like Thurman Thomas, Jim Kelly, and Steve Tasker that are part of this Franchises problem, three very vocal individuals all stuck in the past constantly putting pressure on a weary old man.

 

 

God I hate Twitter.

[Nanker]

Thanks for ignoring the FACT he is the best GM of our time, he builds consistent winners and his team HAS won a superbowl. Yeah I want to relive the glory years, that is all we have with this moronic owner of ours

 

 

That's not a size 12 up you backside although no doubt you do have a great case of the Red Ass.

 

I'm not ignoring that "FACT" - but I do dispute it.

Polian isn't the only good GM in the league, and you can't ignore the fact that he built teams that lost more Super Bowls than they won.

Wishing for him to come back is like wishing for your virginity back. It ain't happening. Well, in your case, perhaps there's time to, well, er, ah, uhm...

Look on the bright side. Ralphie fired all the bad coaches and GMs The Bills ever had too.

 

[NyQuil]

Are people really blaming Polian for the failure of teams once they get to the SB?

[BillsVet]

I say,and I still believe that Linda Bodgan was behind the scene aggravation and a direct spy to his father.

 

Believe what you want but she did have something to do with Bill leaving Buffalo.

 

I don't want to speak ill of the passed, but I'm not sure Linda Bogdan was anything more than an average scout. She evidently liked Carwell Gardner, and wanted Jerry Butler first overall in 79. Either way, the dysfunction of this franchise has only recently come to the surface. It was always there, but people like Polian, Butler, and AJ Smith were able to mitigate their absurd organizational structure and produce winning teams. Now, minus a Polian/Butler/Smith and featuring has been or never will be's in the front office, the dysfunction becomes obvious.

[Mark Vader]

Instead of getting to the truth, can we just move on?

[JohnC]

Look on the bright side. Ralphie fired all the bad coaches and GMs The Bills ever had too.

 

You forgot to mention that he also hired them. Undoing your own handiwork is a necessity with Mr. Ralph.

[nucci]

You are right that it is time to move on. But for the sake of history and analysis the firing of Polian was the pivot point when the franchise went from being one of the best run and successful franchises to becoming a dysfunctional and losing franchise.

 

The friction between Polian and Littman (Wilson's financial representative) certainly had a personal aspect to it. But the substance of the conflict was really about how the team was going to be run. Polian's side of the operation certainly wanted to remain competitive; while Littman's side of the operation tilted toward containing costs and squeezing profits out of the piggy.

 

All franchises go through this push/pull (football/business) tug of war. There is nothing unusual about that. However, after the Polian/Littman battle was settled with Littman prevailing the owner overly tilted toward the cash/flow considerations compared to the football operations. When Butler/A.J. Smith left the primary reason for their leaving had to do with the owner becoming more stern on how the money was managed. Whether they got fired or not is not worth debating because they were going to leave anyway.

 

The Bills are what they are and the organization is what it is because of the owner. That can't be disputed. The irony is that the less involved Wilson is in the operation of the team and the more involved the football people Nix/Gailey/Whaley are in managing the operation the better chance this franchise has in turning things around.

I'm trying to not relive all this. It's just frustrating because it's been so long since we were any good. Both Bills and Sabres blow and I now live in the Philly area. Eagles won today, Flyers will contend again and the Phillies play game 2 of the NLCS. I haven't enjoyed sports in so long I'm might have to spend more time with my wife!!

[flopagamo]

God I hate Twitter.

+1000

[Guest dog14787]

God I hate Twitter.

 

 

+1000

 

 

twitter is just the messenger

[Chalkie Gerzowski]

I say,and I still believe that Linda Bodgan was behind the scene aggravation and a direct spy to his father.

 

 

 

:worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: