Stadium Wall vs Buffalo News/

[wardigital]

Football is a very popular sport, and thus subject to the admittance of lots of yahoos into the conversation, even more so on the internet. The yahoos don't really account for a greater percentage of the posting base here than at any other forum I've ever visited. I do feel like there is a greater degree of rudeness and cynicism that is allowed to go unchecked on this board.

 

I'm a relatively new poster, though I've lurked basically for a decade. Within a week of starting posting here, I was once challenged to what I guess would be some sort of "verbal duel" and a second time told my small number of posts meant my opinion didn't have any value.

 

I'm not advocating moderators here, but I will say that I consider myself a new and productive poster who has been deterred by the ****ty attitudes of some folks, not all.

 

The saying is, I'd rather be around 100 boobs before 1 !@#$. This applies to at least two scenarios in life.

 

Well good for you. But me? I'm a fan (that's short for fanatic) of the Buffalo Bills, my home town team. I do take to heart the negative comments that are made, be it nationally, locally, and even here on this site. The Bills are part of my family, and just like I would be upset if someone said negative things about one of my family members, it is the same with the Bills. Dog one of us and you dog all of us.

 

 

Good post.

 

I feel like the whole "we're not casual fans, so we don't count!" argument is sort of weird.

 

We post on a message board so we can't be considered casual fans.

 

So we talk to people at games, but people who buy tickets and go to games aren't casual fans, because they don't spend the money to do that.

 

So we talk to people who watch the games at home, but people who watch the games every week at home aren't casual fans, because they don't spend the time to do that.

 

And then you realize that its sort of a silly idea to try and measure the "casual fan". Would the "casual fan" be reading Mike Harrington's newspaper article? It doesn't seem like a very casual fan thing to do.

 

If the casual fan is comfortably disengaged with the team, then they aren't really important in terms of whether or not they care about the Miami Dolphins.

[MClem06]

I read this post and heard Bible music in my head and read it like a 70 year old reverend. Try it out... it's pretty funny. CAN I GET AN AMEN.... MMMMMMMMMHHHHHHHHHMMMMM..

 

Seriously though, Buffalo news sucks. They are a bunch of hacks and i agree that there is more information that i want to read on this board because your (all of you) opinions and facts are more interesting than someone that somehow can call themselves a true buffalonian after badmouthing the team.

[Special K]

well, if they can dish it out to sportswriters with an all-too-generalizing sweep of a brush, then i guess i'm free to respond in kind. to be fair, i did have one positive post in suggesting Bills fans have a chance to be No. 1 at something. why shoot for second?

 

jw

 

I'm not one of those people that take personal offense to anything negative that a sportswriter writes about the Bills....you guys get paid to give your opinions--that's a sweet job.

 

All I was pointing out was the fact that you are partaking in the same behavior that you are complaining about.

[notwoz]

reading some of these threads reminds me of this Monty Python skit

[Peevo]

The argument about taking negative Bills/Sabres articles personally has raged on this board for weeks.

 

I know people dont like hearing negative things, but I think Harrington makes a very fair point. They farmed out the the so called "biggest" team rivalry game to TORONTO.

 

I barely remember the Marino/Kelly games. Even the playoff game in 1998 is fuzzy, I was 11 at the time.

 

Are we gonna have News burning parties like they did when they ran the story about how a majority of the City Grill shooting victims had criminal records? The News should never have apologized for that. It's a relevant story that was important, and based in fact.

 

I'm sure it wasn't what the families' suffering wanted to hear, but it doesn't make it less true.

 

While I concede that the comparison is a bit apples/oranges, considering that News story was fact based, and Harrington's column is opinion, but I think you guys get the point.

[wardigital]

I was 11 for the 98 playoff game too. The first offensive play for the Bills was a play action bomb to Moulds that connected and he then fumbled it away, right?

That game was a roller coaster.

[Like A Mofo]

Is it just me or does anyone else think the local media should be trying to maybe drum up a little hype to help support the team instead of trying to convince people they shouldn't care?

 

 

 

Or to sell papers or have more people read their website.

 

Either way, it seems to be working.

 

Hate it? Don't buy it or click it.

[Rico]

Or to sell papers or have more people read their website.

 

Either way, it seems to be working.

 

Hate it? Don't buy it or click it.

I think they should add a Pollyanna dipsh%# just for laughs, the readers' comments would be pretty funny.

[Delete This Account]

I'm not one of those people that take personal offense to anything negative that a sportswriter writes about the Bills....you guys get paid to give your opinions--that's a sweet job.

 

All I was pointing out was the fact that you are partaking in the same behavior that you are complaining about.

i don't have any trouble with you, and i'm not referring to you here in this post, but note that i don't provide opinions. i write as objectively as anyone can in pointing out what i see.

 

the trouble i have is when some posters simply trash my colleagues for trashing's sake, and suggest that perhaps a newspaper should be shuttered. what's the point of that?

too often, some posters here believe they have free reign in discussing their opinions without being challenged. well, i've challenged them by pointing out that they are mere drivel-ridden yahoos, who think they're adding to a discussion.

if they don't like the stories, they don't have to read them. and better still, maybe write a letter to the editor. to go on anonymously bashing people that i know that work hard for a living and provide their own perspectives is pretty cowardly.

 

i know hacks, and some posters on this board don't even measure up to that standard. so, as a member of this board, isn't it fair to call them out for bringing down the discussion to the level of a pre-schooler. saying something or someone "sucks" is easy. explaining that in a well thought out post is another.

 

funny thing is, the yahoos can't see the irony that as much as they don't like the paper, they're still reading it. otherwise, why would they be posting about it.

 

jw

[gomper]

The News is a joke....Disesare might be the worst writer at a paper that's had their share....this site is light years beyond whatever the News manages to spit out...props to all who post here...you guys and girls make this place the envy of every fan site in the country.....keep up the good work...

[JohnC]

i don't have any trouble with you, and i'm not referring to you here in this post, but note that i don't provide opinions. i write as objectively as anyone can in pointing out what i see.

 

the trouble i have is when some posters simply trash my colleagues for trashing's sake, and suggest that perhaps a newspaper should be shuttered. what's the point of that?

too often, some posters here believe they have free reign in discussing their opinions without being challenged. well, i've challenged them by pointing out that they are mere drivel-ridden yahoos, who think they're adding to a discussion.

if they don't like the stories, they don't have to read them. and better still, maybe write a letter to the editor. to go on anonymously bashing people that i know that work hard for a living and provide their own perspectives is pretty cowardly.

 

i know hacks, and some posters on this board don't even measure up to that standard. so, as a member of this board, isn't it fair to call them out for bringing down the discussion to the level of a pre-schooler. saying something or someone "sucks" is easy. explaining that in a well thought out post is another.

 

funny thing is, the yahoos can't see the irony that as much as they don't like the paper, they're still reading it. otherwise, why would they be posting about it.

 

jw

 

Probably more than 90% of the NFL analysts or whatever you want to call someone who reports on the league have predicted that the Bills will have a very difficult upcoming season. The overwhelmingly, if not all, reporters have no personal axe to grind regarding this franchise. I suspect that many of the reporters/analysts do want to see the Bills finally come out of their funk and move up the ranks.

 

There are too many fans who are too emotionally tied up with the team and its performances. They are too ready to feel slighted when a negative opinion of the team and its prospects are given. They personalize criticism instead of consider the validity or non-validity of the criticisms.

 

There are some intense posters who feel that one is betraying the family when one is critical of the franchise. It is not so. Being passionate about something doesn't mean that one should respond in a mean-spirited way when disputing a position.

 

I am not going to agree with everything jw posts. And he certainly is not going to agree with everything I post. But I certainly respect his responses (even the very acerbic ones).

Even when his level of irritiation has been elevated I don't get the sense that he is being rude. I can't say the same for some other posters.

[notwoz]

Probably more than 90% of the NFL analysts or whatever you want to call someone who reports on the league have predicted that the Bills will have a very difficult upcoming season. The overwhelmingly, if not all, reporters have no personal axe to grind regarding this franchise. I suspect that many of the reporters/analysts do want to see the Bills finally come out of their funk and move up the ranks.

 

There are too many fans who are too emotionally tied up with the team and its performances. They are too ready to feel slighted when a negative opinion of the team and its prospects are given. They personalize criticism instead of consider the validity or non-validity of the criticisms.

 

There are some intense posters who feel that one is betraying the family when one is critical of the franchise. It is not so. Being passionate about something doesn't mean that one should respond in a mean-spirited way when disputing a position.

 

I am not going to agree with everything jw posts. And he certainly is not going to agree with everything I post. But I certainly respect his responses (even the very acerbic ones).

Even when his level of irritiation has been elevated I don't get the sense that he is being rude. I can't say the same for some other posters.

[Cookiemonster]

Buffalo media seems to be the only non-homer media in the league. Even Philly media can be supportive once in a while and craft credible arguments for the Sixers to be in the NBA playoffs and Kolb performing better than McNabb is his first year.

Gotta agree, my brother lives in South Florida, and he is always quoting articles from the Herald and Sun-Sentinel,

where they are gushing about their team, even when they suck. Time to get some fair and un-balanced reporting from

our dish rag.

[Kelly the Dog]

Probably more than 90% of the NFL analysts or whatever you want to call someone who reports on the league have predicted that the Bills will have a very difficult upcoming season. The overwhelmingly, if not all, reporters have no personal axe to grind regarding this franchise. I suspect that many of the reporters/analysts do want to see the Bills finally come out of their funk and move up the ranks.

 

There are too many fans who are too emotionally tied up with the team and its performances. They are too ready to feel slighted when a negative opinion of the team and its prospects are given. They personalize criticism instead of consider the validity or non-validity of the criticisms.

 

The question, to me, is the amount of homework done. It's virtually impossible for a national reporter, columnist, analyst, etc, to follow every team the way we rabid fans do. Even the best ones. So it's asking a little too much to know the nuances of why EACH team failed the past season, how they may have improved in the off season, how all of the starters looked in camp and pre-season, etc. Combine this with, the general fan in the league does not want to know anything about the Bills unless they are winning, or unless they have a star player they care about. The Bills don't have either of those.

 

If they were to spend the requisite amount of time studying the Bills and the intricacies of why they have failed and what they have done to improve it, they would be worse at their jobs according to their bosses, because Joe Public really doesn't give a crap about the Bills, unless they are winning, or have stars they care about making spectacular plays.

 

That said, if these guys are going to know nothing about the team, other than a few players, that they hired Chan Gailey a retread, and didn't address their most glaring weaknesses, and just automatically put down the team knowing nothing about them or saying nothing with any insight as to why they will continue to suck, they are not really doing anything. They are mailing in their evaluation of the rest of the league and just writing for the lowest common denominator. It's pretty easy to tell who knows something and who doesn't when they write about the Bills, whether or not they are predicting we will suck.

 

But if a columnist or writer acknowledges the changes in the culture and locker room and coaching and playcalling and yet still comes to the conclusion it was too great a hill to climb in one year and we still may be going through growing pains, that is a very legitimate and realistic stance to take. It's also very easy to separate those types from the know nothing types.

 

So if they do their homework and have good reasons to say we suck, that's cool, and cool with me. It's just a prediction anyway. That's what makes sports great, and dramatic. But if they are just going to say we suck because they know nothing about the team or what they are doing, changing, etc, they should be exposed and denigrated as frauds.

Edited September 8, 2010 by Kelly the Fair and Balanced Dog

[Delete This Account]

Probably more than 90% of the NFL analysts or whatever you want to call someone who reports on the league have predicted that the Bills will have a very difficult upcoming season. The overwhelmingly, if not all, reporters have no personal axe to grind regarding this franchise. I suspect that many of the reporters/analysts do want to see the Bills finally come out of their funk and move up the ranks.

 

There are too many fans who are too emotionally tied up with the team and its performances. They are too ready to feel slighted when a negative opinion of the team and its prospects are given. They personalize criticism instead of consider the validity or non-validity of the criticisms.

 

There are some intense posters who feel that one is betraying the family when one is critical of the franchise. It is not so. Being passionate about something doesn't mean that one should respond in a mean-spirited way when disputing a position.

 

I am not going to agree with everything jw posts. And he certainly is not going to agree with everything I post. But I certainly respect his responses (even the very acerbic ones).

Even when his level of irritiation has been elevated I don't get the sense that he is being rude. I can't say the same for some other posters.

well put, JohnC.

 

jw

[JohnC]

The question, to me, is the amount of homework done. It's virtually impossible for a national reporter, columnist, analyst, etc, to follow every team the way we rabid fans do. Even the best ones. So it's asking a little too much to know the nuances of why EACH team failed the past season, how they may have improved in the off season, how all of the starters looked in camp and pre-season, etc. Combine this with, the general fan in the league does not want to know anything about the Bills unless they are winning, or unless they have a star player they care about. The Bills don't have either of those.

 

If they were to spend the requisite amount of time studying the Bills and the intricacies of why they have failed and what they have done to improve it, they would be worse at their jobs according to their bosses, because Joe Public really doesn't give a crap about the Bills, unless they are winning, or have stars they care about making spectacular plays.

 

That said, if these guys are going to know nothing about the team, other than a few players, that they hired Chan Gailey a retread, and didn't address their most glaring weaknesses, and just automatically put down the team knowing nothing about them or saying nothing with any insight as to why they will continue to suck, they are not really doing anything. They are mailing in their evaluation of the rest of the league and just writing for the lowest common denominator. It's pretty easy to tell who knows something and who doesn't when they write about the Bills, whether or not they are predicting we will suck.

 

But if a columnist or writer acknowledges the changes in the culture and locker room and coaching and playcalling and yet still comes to the conclusion it was too great a hill to climb in one year and we still may be going through growing pains, that is a very legitimate and realistic stance to take. It's also very easy to separate those types from the know nothing types.

 

So if they do their homework and have good reasons to say we suck, that's cool, and cool with me. It's just a prediction anyway. That's what makes sports great, and dramatic. But if they are just going to say we suck because they know nothing about the team or what they are doing, changing, etc, they should be exposed and denigrated as frauds.

 

You make a terrific point that you can accept criticism if it is based on actual research and examination by the respective critics. The reality of the NFL and the media operatives is that more attention is going to be paid and more effort is going to be put into the more relevant and competitive teams. That is a fact of life in all sports. The Lakers are going to get more coverage and scrutiny than the Milwaukee Bucks. Miami with the addition of LeBron is certainly going to get more attention and commentary than Sacramento.

 

The Bills are not going to be examined solely on this year. The Bills have been in a shambles for a decade. When assessing a team the past, especially the near past, is part of the evaluation equation. NFL analysts look at teams and consider not only what is presently being done to the team but where the team is at and how far do they have to go.

 

When the Bills were very good and fun to watch during the Polian years and the four consecutive SB run they did receive a lot of national coverage and scrutiny. During that period of time I was in Moscow and saw a teenager in a Jim Kelly and Buffalo Bills jersey. That wouldn't happen now because the Bills are at this point a very non-descript team.

 

In general, I think Nix/Gailey are on track. But they are starting at a very low point. No matter how loyal a fan one is you can't fairly say that they are a team at the stage of playoff consideration. Maybe in a couple of years if the front office smartly manages this franchise the team will receive the attention it deserves. Right now we are where we are.

Edited September 8, 2010 by JohnC

[flomoe]

For what it's worth, Harrington has been with the News since the '80s, so he's not new to this rivalry.

 

Thanks. I didn't know because I honestly don't remember him when I was living up there. Regardless, he is still a moron. I swear, from what I read around here, that some of the local media in Buffalo could care less if there is a football team there or not.

 

 

 

BTW, I was just talking to a few friends down here in Florida about the Bills game you mention in your signature. It was a pretty vivid memory for me. Very interesting weather to say the least.

[Ramius]

The question, to me, is the amount of homework done. It's virtually impossible for a national reporter, columnist, analyst, etc, to follow every team the way we rabid fans do. Even the best ones. So it's asking a little too much to know the nuances of why EACH team failed the past season, how they may have improved in the off season, how all of the starters looked in camp and pre-season, etc. Combine this with, the general fan in the league does not want to know anything about the Bills unless they are winning, or unless they have a star player they care about. The Bills don't have either of those.

 

If they were to spend the requisite amount of time studying the Bills and the intricacies of why they have failed and what they have done to improve it, they would be worse at their jobs according to their bosses, because Joe Public really doesn't give a crap about the Bills, unless they are winning, or have stars they care about making spectacular plays.

 

That said, if these guys are going to know nothing about the team, other than a few players, that they hired Chan Gailey a retread, and didn't address their most glaring weaknesses, and just automatically put down the team knowing nothing about them or saying nothing with any insight as to why they will continue to suck, they are not really doing anything. They are mailing in their evaluation of the rest of the league and just writing for the lowest common denominator. It's pretty easy to tell who knows something and who doesn't when they write about the Bills, whether or not they are predicting we will suck.

 

But if a columnist or writer acknowledges the changes in the culture and locker room and coaching and playcalling and yet still comes to the conclusion it was too great a hill to climb in one year and we still may be going through growing pains, that is a very legitimate and realistic stance to take. It's also very easy to separate those types from the know nothing types.

 

So if they do their homework and have good reasons to say we suck, that's cool, and cool with me. It's just a prediction anyway. That's what makes sports great, and dramatic. But if they are just going to say we suck because they know nothing about the team or what they are doing, changing, etc, they should be exposed and denigrated as frauds.

 

Great post. What irks me are the pot shots that a lot of "reporters" take at the team. Its things like that which wear me thin. As you stated, its fairly easy to distinguish between the guys who actually tried to put in some time and the guys who merely glossed over, saw we didn't draft a LT or QB with our #1 pick, and predict us to go 1-15. But there are an awful lot of sports types who simply take cheap shots for no good reason.

 

A good example was on NFL network last night during their 4 downs segment. They were talking about Spiller being named #1, and one guy predicted Spiller would win ROY. Another guy stated that if Spiller won ROY, he should win the offensive player of the year, because it would take a hell of an effort to put up huge numbers running behind our line. That was a fair assessment. But them Jaime Dukes pipes in something to the effect of, "Even if Spiller runs for 1600 yards, the Bills are still going to go 3-16 (yes he said 3-16) because that team is so terrible." I mean, really? Is that type of pot shot necessary from a supposed league analyst?

 

The dearth of posts from some of the original and older (not agewise) posters is indicative of this. Everyone has a right to be a fan, but you can't make an objective point about the team without a subjective homer fan railing on them for not being a true fan. I think this is going to be a long season.

 

What about guys who simply spend every single post stating how the Bills are terrible, everything they do is wrong, and that Ralph and "Smithers" suck? Or thats right, they laughably call themselves, "realists".

[Delete This Account]

Thanks. I didn't know because I honestly don't remember him when I was living up there. Regardless, he is still a moron.

an example of what i find wrong with this board.

 

Great post. What irks me are the pot shots that a lot of "reporters" take at the team. Its things like that which wear me thin. As you stated, its fairly easy to distinguish between the guys who actually tried to put in some time and the guys who merely glossed over, saw we didn't draft a LT or QB with our #1 pick, and predict us to go 1-15. But there are an awful lot of sports types who simply take cheap shots for no good reason.

 

A good example was on NFL network last night during their 4 downs segment. They were talking about Spiller being named #1, and one guy predicted Spiller would win ROY. Another guy stated that if Spiller won ROY, he should win the offensive player of the year, because it would take a hell of an effort to put up huge numbers running behind our line. That was a fair assessment. But them Jaime Dukes pipes in something to the effect of, "Even if Spiller runs for 1600 yards, the Bills are still going to go 3-16 (yes he said 3-16) because that team is so terrible." I mean, really? Is that type of pot shot necessary from a supposed league analyst?

 

 

 

What about guys who simply spend every single post stating how the Bills are terrible, everything they do is wrong, and that Ralph and "Smithers" suck? Or thats right, they laughably call themselves, "realists".

and an example of what's right, how Ramius and KTFBD, took it upon it themselves to actually steer this into a sensible discussion.

 

jw

Edited September 8, 2010 by john wawrow

[bills44]

 

and an example of what's right, how Ramius and KTFBD, took it upon it themselves to actually steer this into a sensible discussion.

 

jw

 

you should go back and re-read some of your posts in this thread. bit hypocritical, IMO

 

b44

[Delete This Account]

you should go back and re-read some of your posts in this thread. bit hypocritical, IMO

 

b44

i think i've explained myself quite clearly in this thread. the original poster suggested (and i'm paraphrasing here) that TSW was a far superior place for informed discussion than The Buffalo News, and then went on to disparage some of its writers.

i disagreed and questioned whether this board's relevance is dropping given some of the "yahoos" that have been posting here of late. (and heck, i might be one of them.)

 

some posters agreed with my observation.

others then went on to prove my point by calling writers "hacks" and "morons" and one suggesting a newspaper should close.

 

what exactly have i done wrong, but question the original poster's premise without calling anyone a moron, idiot or hack. if yahoo hits a little too close to home for some, well, pardon me.

 

how this all makes me hypocritical is beyond me. what's apparent, is that i'm not the only one having concerns with an element of posters here with a disregard for good taste and a feeling of self-entitlement to believe they're free to post anything without fear of being called out for it.

 

i called them out and suddenly i'm in the wrong?

guess you got me then.

 

jw

Edited September 8, 2010 by john wawrow

[Webster Guy]

The Buffalo News isn't the Bills' public relations or marketing arm.

Obviously not, because Sunday is sold out despite "nobody being pumped"

 

Agreed.

 

A couple hundred diehard message board fans are not reflective of the community as a whole. This micro-community has a distorted view of reality, but it makes them feel important and relevant. Maybe this explains how slighted everyone seems to feel around here about any article or commentary either locally or nationally that criticizes Buffalo or the Bills.

 

The Bills have lost all relevancy to 99.999% of the population, but they are very relevant to the upset commentators on this message board.

 

I learned a long time ago that being a dedicated fan involves using both your head and your heart. A lot of people only use their heart and therefore are hurt by every little criticism even though the it may be completely justified.

I wasn't hurt by the criticism. The game is sold out and every Bills fan I know is excited. We arent Jacksonville. Buffalo loves this team, so why write an article that says the rivalry is ho hum. Silly thats all. Its JV crap.

[Delete This Account]

Obviously not, because Sunday is sold out despite "nobody being pumped"

 

 

I wasn't hurt by the criticism. The game is sold out and every Bills fan I know is excited. We arent Jacksonville. Buffalo loves this team, so why write an article that says the rivalry is ho hum. Silly thats all. Its JV crap.

so, what you're saying is "Henne vs. Edwards" = "Marino vs. Kelly." and i'm sure you're also suggesting that should the Bills win on Sunday, fans will rush the field and tear the goal-posts down. obviously, we all must agree that Karlos Dansby will enter the stadium and greet the crowd with two certain fingers in the air. and it has been the Dolphins' domination of the Bills that has prevented Buffalo from making the playoffs for the past 10 years. of course, we can also point out that despite the Bills not making the playoffs, they've ruined the Dolphins' Super Bowl hopes since Van Pelt took over for Rob Johnson as starter -- yeah, that was a classic matchup Van Pelt vs. Fiedler: yikes.

 

real Yankees-Red Sox stuff here.

 

no, Buffalo's not Jacksonville, and this town does love the Bills.

this rivalry however, at this point in time is, in fact, ho hum by any stretch of the imagination and given the comparisons of then vs. now. sure, bills fans don't like the Dolphins. i'm sure the newer fans hate the Browns just as much for they've had Buffalo's number of late.

 

jw

[bowery4]

Browns grrrrrr only thing I can say about the Browns is their nick name is the right color.

6-3 was sooooooooooooooooo :censored: embarrassing it is no surprise the way ppl think of our team.

[Dan]

so, what you're saying is "Henne vs. Edwards" = "Marino vs. Kelly." and i'm sure you're also suggesting that should the Bills win on Sunday, fans will rush the field and tear the goal-posts down. obviously, we all must agree that Karlos Dansby will enter the stadium and greet the crowd with two certain fingers in the air. and it has been the Dolphins' domination of the Bills that has prevented Buffalo from making the playoffs for the past 10 years. of course, we can also point out that despite the Bills not making the playoffs, they've ruined the Dolphins' Super Bowl hopes since Van Pelt took over for Rob Johnson as starter -- yeah, that was a classic matchup Van Pelt vs. Fiedler: yikes.

 

real Yankees-Red Sox stuff here.

 

no, Buffalo's not Jacksonville, and this town does love the Bills.

this rivalry however, at this point in time is, in fact, ho hum by any stretch of the imagination and given the comparisons of then vs. now. sure, bills fans don't like the Dolphins. i'm sure the newer fans hate the Browns just as much for they've had Buffalo's number of late.

jw

Now that's hurts. ...take it back.

[flomoe]

so, what you're saying is "Henne vs. Edwards" = "Marino vs. Kelly." and i'm sure you're also suggesting that should the Bills win on Sunday, fans will rush the field and tear the goal-posts down. obviously, we all must agree that Karlos Dansby will enter the stadium and greet the crowd with two certain fingers in the air. and it has been the Dolphins' domination of the Bills that has prevented Buffalo from making the playoffs for the past 10 years. of course, we can also point out that despite the Bills not making the playoffs, they've ruined the Dolphins' Super Bowl hopes since Van Pelt took over for Rob Johnson as starter -- yeah, that was a classic matchup Van Pelt vs. Fiedler: yikes.

 

real Yankees-Red Sox stuff here.

 

no, Buffalo's not Jacksonville, and this town does love the Bills.

this rivalry however, at this point in time is, in fact, ho hum by any stretch of the imagination and given the comparisons of then vs. now. sure, bills fans don't like the Dolphins. i'm sure the newer fans hate the Browns just as much for they've had Buffalo's number of late.

 

jw

 

 

When you put it that way, you make a pretty good point about the writer's article.

 

All I am saying is that the majority of people in Buffalo are fans of the team. Throw in an opening day against a longtime rival, or a win or two here and there and they are much more rabid than being just casual fans as the News writer is suggesting. Maybe I misinterpreted him assumption of the pulse of the city when it comes to the Bills fans and maybe I am just out of the loop since I don't live there anymore, but I stand behind my statement about the writer. It sounds like he is just tossing out something controversial just to get a few more readers and he is just jumping on the negative Nancy bandwagon with the rest of the country. He is a local writer though and should have a better feel for the fans that he is targeting with his writing.

[GOBILLS78]

Buffalo media seems to be the only non-homer media in the league. Even Philly media can be supportive once in a while and craft credible arguments for the Sixers to be in the NBA playoffs and Kolb performing better than McNabb is his first year.

 

But there's hope for the Eagles. The News writes positive stuff about the Sabres -- and Bills -- when they are playing well. Let's please not forget that it's a news organization, not a marketing company.

 

Obviously not, because Sunday is sold out despite "nobody being pumped"

 

I'm willing to say the bulk of Average Joe fans are just as pumped about the atmosphere -- home Bills games are cultural events that happen only seven times a year -- than the actual football game. The game wasn't sold out because of the Bills-Dolphins rivalry, that's for sure, so his point is still well made.

Edited September 9, 2010 by GOBILLS78

[Buffalonian-at-Heart]

how much bad can anyone realistically take, though?

 

jw

 

You could ask a Dolphins fan the same thing. They've gone 79-81 the last decade. Over the same decade the Bills have gone 66-94. The Dolphins have won 13 more games in a decade than the Bills, that's 1.3 more games per year.

 

From 2004 to present the Dolphins had a record of 38-58, while the Bills went 41-55. The Dolphins also experienced a spike of 11 wins in 2008.

 

Let's not let the Dolphins escape from being a part of the rivalries recent decline. However guys like Dan Lebatard ridicule the Bills on a national scene, and our home town writers join in. The fact is the Dolphins are at minimum just as bad as the Bills, and one could argue more recently have been worse. The Dolphins are the joke of the AFC East.

[Kelly the Dog]

You could ask a Dolphins fan the same thing. They've gone 79-81 the last decade. Over the same decade the Bills have gone 66-94. The Dolphins have won 13 more games in a decade than the Bills, that's 1.3 more games per year.

 

From 2004 to present the Dolphins had a record of 38-58, while the Bills went 41-55. The Dolphins also experienced a spike of 11 wins in 2008.

 

Let's not let the Dolphins escape from being a part of the rivalries recent decline. However guys like Dan Lebatard ridicule the Bills on a national scene, and our home town writers join in. The fact is the Dolphins are at minimum just as bad as the Bills, and one could argue more recently have been worse. The Dolphins are the joke of the AFC East.

One thing that hasn't been addressed in this thread that relates to what you're saying is, unfortunately, the Bills biggest game and rival used to be the Dolphins, but the Dolphins biggest game and rival was never the Bills, it was the Jets. Even when the Fins were killing the Bills, their biggest rival for their team and fans were the Jets. Even when we had the Super Bowl years and repeatedly crushed the Dolphins, their biggest rival was the Jets. It was only the Bills fans and team that had the rivalry that meant so much.

 

Sure, it was a division rival and the games were crucial to both teams and both teams fans, but to the Dolphins organization, players and fans, the Bills were like the Patriots to us. Sure we hate them, but not nearly as much as we hate the Fins.

[Buffalonian-at-Heart]

One thing that hasn't been addressed in this thread that relates to what you're saying is, unfortunately, the Bills biggest game and rival used to be the Dolphins, but the Dolphins biggest game and rival was never the Bills, it was the Jets. Even when the Fins were killing the Bills, their biggest rival for their team and fans were the Jets. Even when we had the Super Bowl years and repeatedly crushed the Dolphins, their biggest rival was the Jets. It was only the Bills fans and team that had the rivalry that meant so much.

 

Sure, it was a division rival and the games were crucial to both teams and both teams fans, but to the Dolphins organization, players and fans, the Bills were like the Patriots to us. Sure we hate them, but not nearly as much as we hate the Fins.

 

You're exactly right, but the reason for that is the over all lack of respect given to the Bills. The Dolphins and their media outlets won't recognize the rivalry because the don't want to be associated with it. It's like it would be beneath them to do so. But the facts are the facts, it's a perception issue. And I'm disappointed with guys like John Wawrow that allow this misconception to go on. We are good enough or they are bad enough to be our rivals, take your pick. And maybe rivalry isn't the word, because that's not my point. My point is they're team and organization can be argued to be worse than ours. So the Buffalo media and National media reporting on the Bills (Tim Graham), need to have the guts to write an article debunking the garbage coming out of the Miami media talking heads like Lebatard. There is a debate there, do your research and stick up for the team - the organization - and Bills fans alike. Don't cowardly pile on, just because it's a harder road to defend us.

[murra]

well, if they can dish it out to sportswriters with an all-too-generalizing sweep of a brush, then i guess i'm free to respond in kind. to be fair, i did have one positive post in suggesting Bills fans have a chance to be No. 1 at something. why shoot for second?

 

jw

 

Actually, as far as sport teams message boards go, I'm very surprised at the above average level or grammar and insightful posts (also complete sentences and lack of children).

 

I think there are childish fans out there on these boards, but if you just go to a Raiders message board for example, its difficult to read, hard to follow, and filled with ridiculous images, long rap lyric signatures and swearing.

 

Sure we're a negative bunch... It's easy to get down on the media when your team has been below average for 10 consecutive seasons.

[Buffalonian-at-Heart]

Actually, as far as sport teams message boards go, I'm very surprised at the above average level or grammar and insightful posts (also complete sentences and lack of children).

 

I think there are childish fans out there on these boards, but if you just go to a Raiders message board for example, its difficult to read, hard to follow, and filled with ridiculous images, long rap lyric signatures and swearing.

 

Sure we're a negative bunch... It's easy to get down on the media when your team has been below average for 10 consecutive seasons.

 

Leave the Dolphins alone.

[Delete This Account]

You could ask a Dolphins fan the same thing. They've gone 79-81 the last decade. Over the same decade the Bills have gone 66-94. The Dolphins have won 13 more games in a decade than the Bills, that's 1.3 more games per year.

 

From 2004 to present the Dolphins had a record of 38-58, while the Bills went 41-55. The Dolphins also experienced a spike of 11 wins in 2008.

 

Let's not let the Dolphins escape from being a part of the rivalries recent decline. However guys like Dan Lebatard ridicule the Bills on a national scene, and our home town writers join in. The fact is the Dolphins are at minimum just as bad as the Bills, and one could argue more recently have been worse. The Dolphins are the joke of the AFC East.

they are not. the Bills are the team that deserves to be dismissed in the AFC East based on their record and perennial state of dysfunction over the past 10 years. the Dolphins have MADE the playoffs over that stretch. and they've done it with an unlikely group of quarterbacks. Jay Fiedler, Chad Pennington.

 

the Bills have not, and they've gone through a carousel of posers and wannabes and busts at that position alone.

the Dolphins also deserve credit for making a remarkable turnaround, going from 1-15 to 11-5 over the course of one year. the Bills can't make that claim.

 

i'm not being negative just to be negative, but you have to objectively look at the facts.

the Bills -- not the Dolphins -- are the one team tied with Detroit for the NFL's longest current playoff drought. it's never good to be included in the same sentence as the Lions.

 

heck, even Bills players don't dismiss their past. until the Bills prove they can get their act together, they will be dismissed as also-rans. don't like it, too bad. and sure that's frustrating. but life's freakin' tough and unfair, and that's the way things work in a world without rose-colored glasses.

 

jw

 

You're exactly right, but the reason for that is the over all lack of respect given to the Bills. The Dolphins and their media outlets won't recognize the rivalry because the don't want to be associated with it. It's like it would be beneath them to do so. But the facts are the facts, it's a perception issue. And I'm disappointed with guys like John Wawrow that allow this misconception to go on. We are good enough or they are bad enough to be our rivals, take your pick. And maybe rivalry isn't the word, because that's not my point. My point is they're team and organization can be argued to be worse than ours. So the Buffalo media and National media reporting on the Bills (Tim Graham), need to have the guts to write an article debunking the garbage coming out of the Miami media talking heads like Lebatard. There is a debate there, do your research and stick up for the team - the organization - and Bills fans alike. Don't cowardly pile on, just because it's a harder road to defend us.

what misconception? is it the misconception that the Bills carry little respect around the league? well, sorry fro being a realist, but that's the case. as i don't work for the Bills, i also don't work for the Dolphins, and i don't live in south Florida. and if i did, i don't know if i'd accept the case at this point that the Bills are the Dolphins biggest rivals.

 

given that the Dolphins are competing with the Jets and Patriots for the AFC East title this year, I'd have to say their biggest rivals are, well, the Jets and Patriots. that's until the Bills finally show something different.

 

jw

Edited September 9, 2010 by john wawrow

[BuffOrange]

It's hard to believe there are people arguing the rivalry isn't a shadow of its former self. Even as someone who didn't live thru the 70's it was very easy to hate all of the overrated media hyped loud-mouths on their team during the Marino era. Same for the J. Johnson years culminating in the atrocious officiating in the '98 game. When Wanndsteadt took over, something happened. It wasn't that Miami got worse, because they were still the same 10-6 team most years. But they seemed to have fewer thugs that were easy to hate. Or maybe I got older and realized the players on the two teams weren't much different. Or maybe I stopped seeking out Dolphin message boards. Or maybe the Bills have sucked ever since. Or maybe the Patriots have been too good and gotten too many ridiculous calls in their favor. Or maybe as John so eloquently put it, the Fiedler vs. AVP games were kind of a joke. Whatever it is, it's definitely not the same to me. Not that I'm the spokesperson for all Bills fans, but there are obviously a non-negligible # of us who feel this way. As mentioned it was never "the game" from Miami's pov anyway save for our SB years.

Edited September 9, 2010 by BuffOrange

[GOBILLS78]

the Bills have not, and they've gone through a carousel of posers and wannabes and busts at that position alone.

 

Nobody talks about Travis Brown like that and gets away with it.

[Kelly the Dog]

The rivalry also lost a good amount of its luster because of Bellicheat. I used to hate the Dolphins far more than I hated the Pats. Now, I hate the Pats much worse, and would much rather beat the Pats than beat the Dolphins, and it has very little to do with the Pats being a better team so a win over them would be good in the standings. Or even the Bills falling on hard times, or whatever has happened to the Fins. I just hate the Patsies with a passion, and mostly because of Bellicheat (with dishonorable mention to scumbags like Rodney Harrison and Wilfork, as well as the easily despised Bruschi). I think Brady is a great player and I hate him and hope he gets in a crash crash. (See? Sometimes dreams do come true!)

 

I don't hate anyone on the Dolphins right now. I just don't think they are all that good.

[Buffalonian-at-Heart]

they are not. the Bills are the team that deserves to be dismissed in the AFC East based on their record and perennial state of dysfunction over the past 10 years. the Dolphins have MADE the playoffs over that stretch. and they've done it with an unlikely group of quarterbacks. Jay Fiedler, Chad Pennington.

 

the Bills have not, and they've gone through a carousel of posers and wannabes and busts at that position alone.

the Dolphins also deserve credit for making a remarkable turnaround, going from 1-15 to 11-5 over the course of one year. the Bills can't make that claim.

 

i'm not being negative just to be negative, but you have to objectively look at the facts.

the Bills -- not the Dolphins -- are the one team tied with Detroit for the NFL's longest current playoff drought. it's never good to be included in the same sentence as the Lions.

 

heck, even Bills players don't dismiss their past. until the Bills prove they can get their act together, they will be dismissed as also-rans. don't like it, too bad. and sure that's frustrating. but life's freakin' tough and unfair, and that's the way things work in a world without rose-colored glasses.

 

jw

 

 

what misconception? is it the misconception that the Bills carry little respect around the league? well, sorry be a realist, but that's the case. as i don't work for the Bills, i also don't work for the Dolphins, and i don't live in south Florida. and if i did, i don't know if i'd accept the case at this point that the Bills are the Dolphins biggest rivals.

 

given that the Dolphins are competing with the Jets and Patriots for the AFC East title this year, I'd have to say their biggest rivals are, well, the Jets and Patriots. that's until the Bills finally show something different.

 

jw

 

I couldn't disagree with you more. I think you're failing to look at the facts objectively. You're following the trend of most writers. You're contending that there's an argument. And I'm not talking rivalry (I stated that is not the word to use). I'm saying the Dolphins haven't been better by such a margin that it's not within the realm of discussion that the Bills at the very least are competitive with the Dolphins. Albeit not for the AFC East, etc. but in comparison to each other.

 

For example you stated that "given that the Dolphins are competing with the Jets and Patriots for the AFC East title this year". How do you know they are competing for the division, they haven't played any games yet? This is bias and not fact. You're stating it as fact, so I'm not putting words into your mouth. Now if you said it was your opinion that they will compete that's different, but you're not. Hence you aren't looking at the facts, you're following the Lebatard style bashing, that the Bills are the joke of the division. I'm merely submitting that there's reasonable facts to support it's the Dolphins.

 

I look at the 1-15 to 11-5 so called turn around this way. They went 7-9 last year. So in my view there's an argument converse to the one you make. You build them up for the turn around, but I say it's indicative to how poor they are by loosing 4 more games the following year.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Buffalonian-at-Heart

[Delete This Account]

I couldn't disagree with you more. I think you're failing to look at the facts objectively. You're following the trend of most writers. You're contending that there's an argument. And I'm not talking rivalry (I stated that is not the word to use). I'm saying the Dolphins haven't been better by such a margin that it's not within the realm of discussion that the Bills at the very least are competitive with the Dolphins. Albeit not for the AFC East, etc. but in comparison to each other.

 

For example you stated that "given that the Dolphins are competing with the Jets and Patriots for the AFC East title this year". How do you know they are competing for the division, they haven't played any games yet? This is bias and not fact. You're stating is fact, so I'm not putting words into your mouth. Now if you said it was your opinion that they will compete that's different, but you're not.

 

I look at the 1-15 to 11-5 so called turn around this way. They went 7-9 last year. So in my view there's an argument converse to the one you make. You build them up for the turn around, but I say it's indicative to how poor they are by loosing 4 more games the following year.

and the Bills have gone backward over the past four seasons. what's your point?

 

i'm not following any trend. you conveniently cherry pick a stat by comparing the two franchises from 2004 and note the Bills have a better record since then. well, that's fine and dandy. though you leave out the fact that the Dolphins actually won the AFC East during that time while the Bills have not and now going on their third coach.

as for my contention that the Dolphins are vying for the division title this season, well, just look at their track record and talent: they have two solid running backs. they've added a proven wide receiver to add a new dimension. and Chad Henne went 7-6 as a first-time starter last year. in fact, the Dolphins were in contention right through December. the Bills were not and, rather, were mired in the midst of another coaching change.

 

by comparison, the Bills added C.J. Spiller to an offense that's been among the NFL's worst over the past seven years. and they're making a huge transition to a 3-4 defense with a front-7 that had difficulty stopping the run. let's not forget the Bills 11 times gave up 150 or more yards rushing last season.

 

based on that, there stands a better chance for the Dolphins to be competitive than the Bills in this division.

 

jw

[GOBILLS78]

Hence you aren't looking at the facts, you're following the Lebatard style bashing, that the Bills are the joke of the division. I'm merely submitting that there's reasonable facts to support it's the Dolphins.

 

Come on, guy. The Bills haven't made the playoffs in a decade. Don't talk about objectivity and bias. It's clearly the Bills, and really, it's not all that close.

[Kelly the Dog]

Another thing that probably needs to be said here is that it's okay to completely disagree. It's okay to argue strongly who sucks and who is good. It's even okay to be wrong. We're passionate about the team and city, and our dislike for the stinking fish. These are just predictions and opinions, anyway.

 

The only FACT here is that your opinions and predictions are baseless, ill-advised, laughable, deranged drivel and mine are insightful, trenchant, inspired inarguable truths.