In-A-Gadda-Levitre Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 If that's the argument you want to have, find someone who's said that. Not sure why this is such a stumbling block, it doesn't matter if one fan votes 10,000 billion times, the fan vote will not count for more than 33% of the total vote. That's the entirety of the point. And unless you have some reason to think that the voting for Peters was different for some reason than other players, I find it pretty unlikely that's there some fan out there voting enough to capture the fan vote for him. there's only 1 point, shared by others... If the fans can vote more than once, they can skew the outcome of their portion. In a tie breaker or something like that, the result of the election can theoretically change. Do I believe that's the case and that (some) Pro Bowl selections came as a result of fans voting more than once? No, but it's possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRW Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 there's only 1 point, shared by others... If the fans can vote more than once, they can skew the outcome of their portion. In a tie breaker or something like that, the result of the election can theoretically change. Do I believe that's the case and that (some) Pro Bowl selections came as a result of fans voting more than once? No, but it's possible. I guess I don't see the point of even mentioning that. Outside of some evidence that the votes for a particular player were skewed why even bring it up? And, again, even if the fan vote were manipulated somehow, it only constitutes a portion of the vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 Yeah, two guys who watched the highlights, and the argument is over. Look at the stats and the season instead. http://profootballfocus.com/by_position.ph...&numgames=1 Last year, he was the sixth best pass blocker in the league, and the only reason he wasn't much better was that he was gimping around on an injured ankle for 3 or 4 games, yet playing because they needed him. Before his injury in the fifth game of the year, he was listed as the 3rd best overall tackle. Among other results of that trade, it is extremely likely to cause us to use our #9 draft pick to replace Peters and therefore preventing us from getting Spiller, Dan Williams, McClain, or another potential difference maker. Worst trade we've made in years. I can't agree with that. In terms of value, I believe the Bills got much more value for trading Peters than they could have by keeping him. First off, they traded a former undrafted TE out of Arkansas and turned him into a Pro Bowl LT. Then, when Peters thought 'team' was spelled with a big 'I', they traded said undrafted college free agent for a 1st round pick and an additional one. Clearly, in terms of value for the player (hmmm...starting to sound like Darcy Regier, here), the Bills got much more bang for the buck than than what they initially paid. To get a 1st rounder for an undrafted player is a HUGE return on investment. NOW, in terms of detriment to the team that is the only place where I will side with you- but it must be stated with the caveat that it was poor planning and management that they did not seek out a replacement either in the draft or in free agency either before or after he was traded. Levi Jones did a pretty respectable job down here in DC. Oher- though a RT by trade- proved to be a stud for Baltimore. So, the guys were there. But that again is not to say that the Bills got the bad end of the stick on this deal by trading Peters. Where they DID screw up, was in not having an alternative plan ready to go when he did depart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 Oh look, another clueless poster when it comes to Brown.... Old timers may remember that I did a 2 year study of Reuben Brown, looking at every play -- and the number of penalties he had was actually VERY low; something like 0.4 per game, when other people on the OL had far more. I wish I still had that report, but I believe it was lost during one of the board crashes... Clueless posters when it comes to Brown don't know how to spell Ruben's first name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocwocka Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 I have two words regarding O-linemen in the Pro Bowl: RUBEN...BROWN. 'nuff said. PTR totally agree. made it on his reputation almost every year. seemingly had the most holding/false starts ever for a nine time probowler. on the other hand, he's a real cool guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 totally agree. made it on his reputation almost every year. seemingly had the most holding/false starts ever for a nine time probowler. on the other hand, he's a real cool guy.Until the last game of the 2003 season, when the POS quit on the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezmid Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 Will you still be laughing when you send me a check for $50? Clueless posters when it comes to Brown don't know how to spell Ruben's first name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezmid Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 Yeah, except he didn't... Not even close... totally agree. made it on his reputation almost every year. seemingly had the most holding/false starts ever for a nine time probowler. on the other hand, he's a real cool guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 ya, I'd be interested in seeing that study, too bad its lost. My comment was less about the total number of penalties, but rather so many drive killer infractions. It seemed to me that Mr Brown committed penalties at crucial times, wiping out scoring opportunities in the process. Prove me wrong and I'll fall on my sword. It's on you to back up your own claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 I can't agree with that. Yeah you can. Just look into the "stats" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 Um, you might want to re-read your post there. I don't think you quite understand how this all works. Your second sentence is right on, but after that ... well ... Well TT, what can I say. Perhaps I'm TOO familiar with the process. Don't quite understand how it works? Laughable. I am correct on EVERYTHING I've posted regarding the Pro Bowl selection process and know from first hand experience of players voting for players they haven't even SEEN on TV in a particular season. I just wanted to offer some lacking insight on the subject and you go right for the condescending jugular as usual. Classy. But go ahead and think what you wish. No skin off my back. Your positions, like so many around here, are intractable at best. Particularly when it comes to posts contained in a thread concerning players that you and others have long been on a crusade for. You are, simply put, incapable of rational thought given the pique of your emotional attachment to your cause. And just for the record, my post on the Pro Bowl selection process had NOTHING TO DO WITH JASON PETERS! NOTHING AT ALL! GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In-A-Gadda-Levitre Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 It's on you to back up your own claim. on one hand, I wouldn't mind looking into the down and distance, and a rollup of the plays that preceded that, of every holding penalty he had. But Ruben's a good guy and what good would it do? I guess I got a right to my opinion after watching those games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malazan Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Clearly, in terms of value for the player (hmmm...starting to sound like Darcy Regier, here), the Bills got much more bang for the buck than than what they initially paid. To get a 1st rounder for an undrafted player is a HUGE return on investment. Oh, man, you are going to try to explain differentiating value to TBD. May any God you worship have mercy on your soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 first of all ruben was fcking awesome and a pure bills guy. gimme 5 of him and you have a killer oline. to me peters is the sean gilbert of the o line. awesome skills and physical ability, poor focus and conditioning, prone to quit. gilbert went to carolina and was considered by all who played or practiced with him as the best talent in the Dline in the nfl. unblockable was thrown around with his name all the time. thing is he wasn't a super hard worker or football guy in the nfl, and so he ended up under playing his contract. now a DT i can see being an asset if he is great sometimes and bad others, because big plays by a dt cand disrupt a whole O. on the O line, particularly at LT, i want a rock steady guy. a mistake by an Oline player will offset 10 much better than average plays, it's just the nature of the position. because of that i fade peters as a player at his salary, and we did fck up by not having an LT in place really soon. oher over maybin would have made us a MUCH better team last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 I think this is new... Left TackleWorst: Jason Peters, Philadelphia Eagles (7 sacks/4 hurries/11 total blown blocks) Best: Joe Thomas, Cleveland Browns (2 sacks/0.5 hurries/2.5 total blown blocks) The Eagles used a first-round pick to acquire Peters in the hopes that he'd be their left tackle of the future, but he was extremely erratic in 2009. Thomas is pretty clearly the best left tackle in football at this point, but no one knows it because he plays for one of the league's worst teams. article (insider) This Bills info... In 2009, the offensive line that allowed the most sacks was also the one that went through the most players. The Buffalo Bills had 11 different players start at least one game up front for them on offense, and those linemen combined for a league-high 28.5 blown blocks leading to sacks. In addition, running back Fred Jackson led all backs with four blown blocks that led to sacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 I think this is new... article (insider) This Bills info... Now you've done it. Way to go Hopshoop. Get ready for a deluge of posts with links to Pro Football Focus, whose own indepth study of all OLmen flies in the face of this travesty from ESPN. Jason Peters the worst? Blasphemy! GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 I think this is new... article (insider) This Bills info... Nice find, BeerSphere - thanks. Like I've said before - if Andy Reid calls you, Buddy, DO NOT ANSWER THE PHONE. No question the Eagles are gonna try to stick it to the Bills for dumping a fat, lazy, injury-prone tub of goo with waning talent, a huge attitude problem, and a $60M price tag on them - and walking away with 3 draft picks! Way to go, Russ! GO BILLSSS!!!! 19 and 0 baby!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Until the last game of the 2003 season, when the POS quit on the team. Did he quit on the team? My distinct recollection is he went postal after game 15 because of his frustration with the coaching philosophy and launched himself across the table at Gilbride and/or Williams. He was suspended as a consequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Did he quit on the team? My distinct recollection is he went postal after game 15 because of his frustration with the coaching philosophy and launched himself across the table at Gilbride and/or Williams. He was suspended as a consequence. That's part of the story. Here You Go: Ruben Brown A No-Show Another element came to light before the game with the Patriots when it was announced that Ruben Brown was "excused" from the game. Bills coach Gregg Williams said that "personal reasons" were the factors that determined that they would allow him to miss his first game after playing 71 straight. Bills GM Tom Donahoe emphasized that Brown was not suspended, but "inactive." Rumors have come out of One Bills Drive that Brown was unhappy with Bills offensive coordinator Kevin Gilbride and the play calling all season. In fact, one source claimed that Brown confronted Gilbride during the week. Brown did not practice all week with the Bills and said on his radio show early in the week that it would have been hard for him to get motivated playing the last game of the season. This comes at a time when the Bills needed some final stand, one last show of support for not only their coach, who is likely to get fired next week, but also for pride. What Brown did to the Bills and his teammates was to abandon ship. He had enough of the coaching staff and decided to make a statement to everyone by quitting on the team. Brown, who was voted to the Pro Bowl for the 8th straight year, may have played his last game in a Bills uniform last week against Miami. First link I found to go into any detail, but that's how I remember it.... and I will NEVER forget that miserable season. Ruben. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
folz Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Let's find some middle ground here and let the Peters trade recede into history... Did/does Peters have the potential to be elite? Yes Were we worse off without him last year? Yes Has he played as an elite tackle over the last 2 years? No (2008) and probably not (2009) Could he return to 2007 form? He might Is he paid too much money? Based on the last 2 years I'd say yes. Not saying he was awful last year, but I also don't think he played as say a top 3 LT (in relation to his salary). Will the Bills be better off without him long term? I think so. Let me explain the last answer: He wanted too much money, which was probably the Bills fault for signing Dockery and Walker to such huge contracts. But, he wasn't happy here, didn't want to be here anymore so even if he got paid would we have gotten the best of him? If he was unhappy, he'd be griping which could make other guys unhappy (we've all seen it in our workplaces), we got pretty good value for him in the trade, we created a hole (which hurt us last year) but ultimately if we had spent that much money on him we might have had to short change other positions moving forward, which we couldn't really afford to do knowing how many spots we had to upgrade. If he was guaranteed to play as an elite LT for the next 5 to 10 years you pay him, if you have any reservations, you let him go. So, can't we agree on the fact that he doesn't suck and has and might be able to play as an elite LT but there were some question marks if he could do it on a consistent basis to warrant the money he was asking for? I feel like many people are still going to the extremes on either end with this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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