VW82

I think it's unfair to compare Allen to Manning and Ryan and Wilson, all of whom showed they were better prepared to start coming into their rookie seasons. I also think it's unfair to compare him to guys like Cam or Watson who had better athletic ability to help them overcome the steep learning curve of being an NFL QB. We just fundamentally disagree on the fourth paragraph, I guess. Again, I think when you're so green that you can't diagnose the rush pre-snap or get through your progressions on time it's going to expose you to more hits. Also, putting him in a bunch of read options where he feels the need to keep and make a play (because it's not going so well when he drops back to pass) is also exposing him to a higher risk of injury. He's a big kid and a better athlete than I thought, but I'm not sure that's the best way to develop him. At this stage, we have to play Allen. That road got crossed the moment McD announced he was starting. We dropped the ball not coming into camp with a better QB situation which would have allowed him more time to learn. I think those first 6-8 weeks are invaluable for a rookie QB to see how a vet prepares, game plans, debriefs, corrects for the next week, etc. But yeah, they shouldn't change anything now. It would be a tough vote of no confidence. Have to just hope he overcomes the tough spot he's been put in. Despite the tone of my posts, I'm rooting for him.

You can say it's nonsense all you want, but there a lot of really smart football people out there who seem to think it's not. Also, common sense would suggest throwing a kid into a job before he's ready might risk his confidence (self and coworkers) if he sinks rather than swims early. That goes for any job, not just football. Perhaps you're being a little dismissive here. Look at the best QBs in the NFL over the last 10 years: Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Eli, Rivers...now Mahomes, Goff. They all waited to start. All success stories. Some guys like Manning and Ryan and Wilson started right away and found success, but they also won their starting jobs in camp and showed they were ready. There's no perfect, one size fits all solution but it's hard to argue with the results of the guys who weren't initially ready and waited. Also, Steve DeBerg started the first 11 games in Young's rookie year. He got to wait. Who says Allen wasn't ready? McDermott and Allen. Allen said the preseason was too fast for him after this start vs. Cinci, and McD said it by giving the job to Peterman after a three month long battle. Again, I'm not saying anything will happen. It's about risk. We're exposing Allen to increased risk that something might happen (i.e. he gets hurt, loses his confidence, team loses its confidence in him). He made some decisions in that Chargers game which exposed him to taking huge shots, particularly the keep near the endzone in the 3rd q (to say nothing of all the missed protections where rushers got free shots on him). BTW that's exactly how Wentz got injured. Being inexperienced, and naive, and trying to do just a little too much. Young players are going to make mistakes whether they're first or second year players, but it's not completely insane to suggest that perhaps guys who have waited and learned a little longer or have better talent around when they do play won't be as prone to messing up and getting hurt. The QB eye level stuff after taking a bunch of hits isn't nonsense. It's common sense.

Although I don't think it's a forgone conclusion that young QBs will fail in bad situations, it definitely makes it harder on them and exposes them to risks you maybe wouldn't be so concerned with in better situations. To me, Ben and Mahomes are great examples of doing it the right way. Mahomes got to sit for a year and learn and slowly win over the confidence of his teammates so that when he finally got his shot he was ready. Ben got thrown in the fire early because of injury, but the Steelers had a championship team around him and only asked him to do things he was capable of. Bills just don't have that. We're playing him too early and asking him to do things he isn't ready for. Because of this teams are able to really key him on him. Allen seems like a tough kid so he should be ok but he's liable to get hurt like this. The biggest concern is will he get so consumed with all these rushers beating him up that he starts to lower his eye level as a habit (to protect himself). Once that happens, it's over. QB PTSD.

Our line is better at pass blocking than run blocking (though they kinda suck at both tbh), and Shady isn't the guy he was two years ago. Plus he's hurt. Don't expect this to change much. Holding the ball long isn't that big of a deal if you have good pocket presence, and can feel the rush while still keeping your eyes down field. Allen is still figuring that part out. Some of the pressures wouldn't have been pressures with Ben or Brady back there because they're so good at seeing a lineman getting pushed back and stepping up in the pocket or off to the side and away from the rush to buy those extra couple of seconds needed to get rid of it. We've seen a few instances where Allen doesn't move and the lineman gets pushed right into him, and then he tucks the ball, puts his head down and runs. Peterman was doing this too. He'll improve. The bigger issue IMO, and what Daboll was referring to with the "free rushers" comment, is getting better at pre-snap QB reads on rushers. That's where so many of the problems are starting.

Is it possible to sticky this thread and perhaps alter the title so as to help lower clutter on the first page on why it was such a dumb idea to rebuild?

Think we're stuck with Star for two more years after this one, unless we're able to trade him (unlikely). He has an out in his contract in 2021 where the dead cap hit isn't crazy. Can't see us taking another one technique guy. Bosa would be nice, but I'd seriously look at the Oregon QB if we're picking first and there's any doubt about Josh.

It's just so hard to have good overall line play when your center is weak and ineffective. It's great that the guards have been ok, especially Ducasse which is stunning. I don't agree that the tackles have been that good, and we get virtually no push in the run game. Frankly, it's so hard to evaluate this stuff when your QBs are that out to lunch with the pre-snap protections and assignments. Everyone needs to be graded on a curve. I have no idea how PFF got to those numbers.

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Fair points. The issue is that some of that turmoil is of McD's own making. Good for him if he/Bills can find their way out of it, but it would nice to have a coach that doesn't put you in that position in the first place. I think that's where the 'first coach to be fired' stuff is coming from.

Yeah feels like contracts haven't been taken into account here, but I will say that the current circus surrounding the team (Peterman and Leslie Frazier getting benched right out of the gate, Davis quitting the team in the middle of a game, veiled shots by ex-Bills) does give off a smell of a coach losing control, and that's usually a sign that things might be coming to an end. That said, it really seemed like McD built up some equity last year, and it's still early. Maybe Allen and Edmunds start to show signs of stardom this year. If that happens, no one will be talking about a coaching change. Losing sucks and it will always bring the wolves out.

Love the all 22 but this yardsperpass guy is clueless unfortunately. No that was not a miscommunication, he was hot. Allen has to adjust the protection for that. Also, the read was to keep on that 3rd and 2 read option. One guy to beat for a first down. Instead RB got sent into the heart of the defense. Allen needs some time in the film room with the read option stuff. Feels like he's messing that play up a lot.

Here's Daboll referencing Allen and Peterman holding the ball too long and struggling to diagnose the rush pre-snap. “More than half of those sacks aren’t the offensive line,” Daboll said, referencing to quarterbacks Josh Allen and Nathan Peterman holding onto the ball too long during the first two weeks of the season. “We can do a good job with setting the table, getting things set to where we need to get them set to. Those guys have protected inside out for the most part in pass protection. There have been some free runners that you guys have seen. It’s not all on the line, no question about it.” I'm a broken record at this point, but even the OC is publicly acknowledging it. Let's stop blaming the o-line for everything.

If you already have the right core of guys / culture in place you can take on talented non-leaders or problem players and generally fit them in without disrupting your locker room (see Patriots with Moss and now Gordon, or any of those good to great teams you listed). We didn't have that situation. We had a team full of talented losers with leaders who for the most part couldn't really get it done on the field anymore. It's way more important to establish your leadership and build out from that or you're not going anywhere in the NFL. The whole point of trading all those guys was to get enough draft capital to find new leadership. It's possible McBeane screws this rebuild up but it needed to happen if we want to become a perennial playoff team IMO. Last year we mostly just got lucky with an unsustainable TOV margin and an easy schedule.

Nice try. Go back and read the OP. This team had limited options because of our cap situation and our aging core. Bills needed to rebuild in the worst way. Take issue with the execution of that - I surely have - but if you're advocating that we should have tried to keep all those guys, you're not looking the facts that McD was facing when he took over. We were always going to have to trade or walk away from some of our big money, bad culture guys because of the cap situation, and we needed new leadership.

No they were non-leaders. McD made it pretty clear his priority was re-establishing the culture in the locker room. You don't do that by paying all the bad culture guys or non-leaders, especially if you need to go find new leaders because your old ones are getting too old. Our core was Kyle, EWood, Shady, Lorenzo, Hughes, and TT, and Bills decided they needed to move on from TT. What was the alternative? Pay all our malcontents and lock us into 7-9 for the next five years? That doesn't make any sense.

Yeah I think he's particularly raw with the pre-snap stuff, even for a rookie. Having Daboll in his ear to diagnose LOS might help short-term but Allen probably needs to learn by doing and making mistakes. It's a tough line to walk but he'll get better. Other than that, he just needs to work on his accuracy and consistency. Some of those throws were tough.

Did you even read the OP? This wasn't about getting rid of Whaley's guys. It was about fixing our cap and getting into a position to where we could use added draft capital to find new leadership because the old guard (Kyle, EWood, Lorenzo, Shady, etc.) was mostly just old. Feel free to take issue with the players they've chosen to bring in but trading or letting walk guys like Dareus, Glenn, Sammy, etc. was the right move.

I think three of the five sacks rest squarely on Allen as well as some of the other QB pressures. He just doesn't understand what's happening pre-snap, and so he doesn't know which adjustments to make with the protections. 100% agree on the mental toughness though. I've been pretty vocal about what a disservice McD is doing throwing him to the wolves before he's ready. Two plays stood out though: the long pass to Clay on the first half FG drive after those two ugly missed throws and dropped INT, and the garbage time drive after that second INT. Peterman's biggest issue is that he let things snowball. Allen messes up but then he bounces back. That takes mental toughness.

Excellent post. It's amazing to me how anyone could see this breakdown and still question McBeane's decision to rebuild. I get the frustration with the execution of it but it NEEDED to happen. Our cap situation was F'd. We had no choice.

For real though I can't remember seeing White get beat and for the second straight game Lorenzo made a bunch of plays. Jerry Hughes was effective at times too. Feels like those two guys are the only ones who ever get into the backfield and they have a combined age of 75.

Because McD is a DBs coach and that was the only part of the roster he completely overhauled. I'm fairly certain I also read some stuff on Poyer and Hyde crediting him for bringing them in. Edit: it would seem very odd that he would take Whaley's cue in his area of expertise.

Pretty sure all the DBs (Hyde, Poyer, Gaines) were McD's guys, and Matthews came from Philly so he had a McD connection there too. Don't think Whaley had much to do with it tbh. His scouting department definitely had a lot of intel which they likely used, especially in the draft but McD likely made the final calls as you suggested.

Yeah all of McBeane's 2018 off season moves are enough to give you serious pause. Yet McD did such a nice job the previous off season. Hard to know what to think. My guard is way up though.