ngbills

These are great points. I think most rational people agree with you. Tyrod is an NFL starter though some folks on this board talk like he could not even play high school ball. Yes, his passing game could have been improved, but he made up for some of that with his legs. Yes you can upgrade from him, but you can also get much worse.

The point is the spin in rookie camp or OTA's or whatever is generally overly positive. For many reasons - build fan excitement, sell tickets, marketing / advertising, player morale, and on and on. Until they put pads on and start playing other teams we dont know what we really have. Yet there is a camp that thinks we always have to blindly agree that player xyz is the best ever because our new front office and coaching staff (who are also the best ever) say so. By saying that EJ also got praise does not mean anyone is rooting against Allen or saying he sucks. Its just saying things tend to always looks this way this time of year. So hearing about the pass that was thrown in shorts with no rush to an undrafted WR caught against an undrafted CB, are not the type of things to make you believe he is the best guy ever type of stuff. That see "proof we have our franchise QB" or falsehoods that "Tyrod or Fitz or whoever never would have made that pass", etc.

Buffalo Bills head coach Doug Marrone likes what he's seen from rookie quarterback E.J. Manuel -- in fact, Marrone says the former Florida State signal caller is the best rookie player he's ever coached (Marrone was an assistant with the Jets and the Saints). The Bills selected Manuel with their first-round pick in the 2013 NFL Draft. "Rookie quarterback EJ Manuel passed the eyeball test in his first practice with the Buffalo Bills Friday. The 6-foot-5, 237-pounder from Florida State showed off his big arm and a nearly effortless ability to throw deep down the sideline during the first of three rookie minicamp practices inside the Bills’ fieldhouse."

People that were at the OTA's. This is from people there. It was also discussed on WGR. Peterman threw mostly short balls. Either none or maybe one ball past 20 yards. AJM threw 2 balls past 20 yards. Allen threw 8 past 20 yards which is a good thing. Though they said he held on to the ball a long time in doing it, so who knows if in real action he would have had a play or been sacked, rushed out of the pocket etc.

Against 3rd team defense.Still hoping for the best. I tend to not get excited in OTA's, with no pass rush, etc. Word is he was holding the ball much longer so if it was real live action may not have that much time.

Or it could be our last QB did make an impact on winning. Maybe not the best passer, but other qualities that helped the team win. If we get a guy that throws better, but does not make the same plays with his legs, turns the ball over more, etc that could lead to more losses. And back to the point of this thread. The WR group did not make it easy on Tyrod and will not make it easy on the our next guy.

Dont post the facts. It does not fit the narrative. Our WR's are awesome and Tyrod just sucked.

Their numbers have been down. Not just with the Bills but prior to joining them. It is not all about age. Could be injuries having a long term effect, drive, who knows what. But fact is - look at the stats. They were on the decline. Then the teams got rid of them. Then both played through injuries and still continued to post declining stats. That is the reality. It was not because they had bad QB play. Again, Hogan and Woods. Slightly better in offenses much more centered around throwing the ball. Not night and day different. Goodwin - more targets, more playing time. Until 2016 he barely saw the field as a WR. He was improving and we did not get see him as a Bill in 2017. Jordan Matthews, Kelvin Benjamin, Chris Hogan, Marquise Goodwin, and Robert Woods Would that be an impressive group of WR?

Not that simple. Matthews and Benjamin were both nagged by injuries here and both were clearly on the decline. Go look at the game logs for them. There is like 2 100 yd games between them in the last season prior to coming here. Look at Hogan and Woods number. Really not that different from here. Woods 65, 47 and 51 catches the last 3 years in Buffalo and 56 this year. Hogan was 41 and 36 here and 38 and 34 there. Would not call these wow numbers after leaving. Goodwin never really got a shot or put it together here. In 2016 he started getting more involved and was gone the next year. Who knows what he could have done if he was a bill. Bills could have used him as a deep threat. Could he have caught 50 balls? Maybe...

Wide open? Dont really see it that way. Even so, pick one play and say this shows our wr's are good? Here are highlights. More than one play, so does this mean Tyrod was really a good qb?

I meant it more as sarcasm and a general mindset we see on here a lot. "Trust the process" and dont question or debate anything because the McBeane team knows whats going on.

I get confused on here too. I think we agree - he is not a good WR and has enough time now to show that. Good athletic guy but about it. I am so used to hearing "MCD knows him so he must be legit, etc"

And he has been a WR for either 5 or 8 years now...

He was a QB in the wildcat his freshman year. He played WR/RB the next three years.

5 years in the league. 47 Rec for 600 yds, 4td's Last year CAR had no WR's and he still had minimal impact. In TAM it was Mike Evans and nobody and he had minimal impact. Was undrafted out of LSU At LSU was a contributor but not a star. Caught 6 passes his senior year. Yep - He solves all of our woes at WR...

Could be right could be wrong. Most would say when you lose three guys like we did that there is a good chance the unit will be worse. But if your saying the guys that were back ups are actually better than the starters then we have issues with our coaching staff. So I would hope that's not the case. I think its more: Glenn - Expensive, not producing at his pay grade and didnt want to be here. That is not = Dawkins is a better player. Wood - The team wanted him, he is injured. He would have been the starter and now they need to start his back up. Incognito - The team wanted, he is gone. Now we have to start his back up. In my mind that is three better football players now gone. Replaced by three inferior players.

Or they just saw him play and didnt like what they saw...including the worse half of QB play ever. I am sorry but its hard to get excited from anything he showed. Nothing to do with Tyrod. If Peterman was on any other team no one on this board would want him.

Disagree. I think most skeptics are basing this on: OL - 2-3 lost starters. Marginal at best replacements. WR - Awful group and possibly worse with some departures. QB - Completely unknown. None of them have been a starter in the league, none have seen much playing time at all. Combine that with a new OC and this OL and WR crew its tough.

Plenty of room to go down from 22nd.

You are way off with your Carson Wentz vs Allen numbers. Your counting 19 games that Wentz "played". He started 23 games and Allen started 25 games. Keep it real.

http://www.cfbstats.com/2017/player/522/1057661/passing/situational.html http://www.cfbstats.com/2017/player/811/1073959/passing/situational.html http://www.cfbstats.com/2017/player/657/1072773/passing/situational.html http://www.cfbstats.com/2017/player/110/1070189/passing/situational.html I would say looking overall at 3rd down stats - it is Bayfield, Darnold, Allen, Rosen. Funny that is the draft order of them.

Maybe not - Daboll has been there before.

If its this simple what went wrong for Daboll in the past?

You can break down things so many ways. Only time will tell. I do not like the adjustment for drops or this or that. You would have to make those adjustments to every other QB's throws as well. And the logic of talent level - yes his team was less talented but they also played against less talent. Lets see what this guy does when he gets to camp, when he plays some snaps against NFL talent. Until then its anyone's guess.

I expected SF to take him #1 that year. I would have taken him in a heartbeat at the time. Like I said I watched him in practice all the time as I was working with the Cal sports dept at the time. The guy had it and it was obvious. Go watch his game vs USC. Look at how he elevated that team and what they were without him.