Rochesterfan

Agreed - I have heard the media guys talk while the Bills were getting inducted and it covered more than just the on the field stuff. I do not remember ever hearing about things away from the game being talked about, but things like player interactions, media interactions, along with the playmaking. My guess is that individual voters take each thing into consideration and some parts weigh more heavily on some voters than others. May not be totally fair, but the voters are human and if you treat them like dirt - that colors their opinion long term. He was also suspended by multiple teams for conduct detrimental to the team. He missed over 1/2 a season due to team initiated suspensions because of that attitude. That has to say something to these guys that are making a decision - a team like Philadelphia decide after 2 years into a five year deal (with half of one of those seasons spent on the suspended list due to comments and fighting team leaders) that the team was better off without him. All of those things need to and should be taken into account.

It was not money as much as teams that would take him. He was technically traded from SF to Philadelphia after his agent screwed up. In SF - he got in repeated arguments with teammates and basically told the media he though Jeff Garcia was gay. Not exactly a great teammate. Philidelphia he got a 5 year contract - went to the SuperBowl in year 1, but called out his QB and effectively ended his Philly career. Year 2 got in a fist fight with Hugh Douglas and was suspended and cut following the season - again a great teammate. His one real FA push got him to Dallas for 3 years after which he was released. Then 1 year in Buffalo and 1 year in Cincinnati and neither team nor any other teams wanted him really at that point. He repeatedly had issues with teammates and other teams - including His celebrations in Dallas as a 49er and the sharpie incident, the football as a camera, etc. those do not endear you to other fan bases and media to help your induction chances. He was suspended multiple times in his careers for conduct detrimental to the team and for his actions on the field - all of which should be taken into account when voting for a HOF candidate. His numbers make him worthy - his actions and antics deem him questionable and in the end it took a couple of years, but they decided he was worthy and once again his antics make the media question that decision.

I disagree - I think these voters understand they are making decisions that reflect on the legacy of the player and what a huge honor it is. TO deserves to get in, but if he is going to once again disrespect the process, the other classmates, and HOF by not showing up and calling them out again - then give the spot to someone that will appreciate it because there are other worthy candidates that will have to wait. I can totally understand his position and I am guessing that it impacted others previously and that he is not alone in wishing he could take back his vote. I think the HOF got it right - we are going to ignore this and we will celebrate those that attend. I also think someone like Moss or Irving will get in TO’s ear and tell him to get his butt there as this is special and in the end he will show up.

This simply is not true - the OP was off on 300 yard games as proven multiple times. I cannot tell if the OP was just bad at research as it was a quick find or trolling people.

I agree - this is exactly what I was thinking.

It is not about who would attend- it was about as they are deciding on these guys - they each get one person that stands up in the little room and puts together a promo of why this guy is deserving. Typically it is a local sports media figure that presents all of his positive stats and the things he did as a player, awards, etc. It is a huge deal and they talked about Larry Felser doing this for the 90’s Bills and the way he presented to the voters and the way he humanized the players helped get them votes. TO had a contentious relationship with the media - I am sure someone put together his numbers and made a case, but if that person was not as passionate as other - it could cost him votes.

I think this is a huge point - if you have listened in the past - these guys have a surrogate that stands up and goes over their accomplishments and what makes them Hall of Fame worthy. TO was a selfish prick as a player - so who is standing up making that passionate plea to get him elected. Stats are are a huge part, but it also matters how you were respected as a player and how your play impacted others on the field. A first ballot HOF not only had to be great, but needs great support from others to get the ground swell of support going. The NFL also limits the number of entries and sometimes as in TO’s case there are other worthy people at your position that deserve to be in also. This is TO’s decision and I respect that, but it also totally reinforces the me-ness he displayed as a player and why he did not have the respect as a player he could have gotten.

It depends - if you really believe Dennison was the biggest reason the offense was bad last year - then if Daboll is a better coach - even with a few weaker players - he should easily be able to get more out of the offense. If Dennison was only part of the problem and TT was another big piece - both were replaced - so again you have Daboll and a new QB that is a question mark. The WRs are bad, but I don’t think they are worse than our starting WRs last year to me they are a wash. The interesting piece will be OLine - it looks weaker on paper, but in the past Groy replaced Wood with no drop off. So you have either Groy or Bodine at center - maybe a slight drop off. The big loss is Cogs and the Bills obviously did not grade him as high as places like PFF. I expect a small step back as the new guys work to function as a unit, but I think a good game plan can counter most of that. I expect realistically to see the Bills offense much as it has the last 3 years struggling at times and making plays at times - the hope is they can make plays when they need to to win a few close games.

Agree 100% - He played hard and well here - I do not like him, but I can wish him the best in terms of recovery.

That is bull - it is all in the relationships- Metta was well connected with Rex in NY and that even followed when he came here - Metta had several Bills things break under Rex - FA and other moves including changes to the coaching staff. Vic broke the news about Rex being fired 1 week before it finally happened. Long before any national guys even had a sniff. Mary Kay Cabbott in Cleveland is Schefters go to source for most things Cleveland. She typically gets the story and then Schefter puts it out to the masses via the ESPN engine. John Kryk from Toronto- Mike Rodak- Tim Graham all have had several stories over the last couple of years. Matthew Fairburn out of Syracuse is another guy that provides a ton of info and has broken news. The issue is unless you are following those guys on Twitter - you almost always get the story out of ESPN or CBS first because those sites are where the masses are looking.

But the old time reporters - Felser and Carruci version 1 and especially Jim Kelley - had great insight and communication with the owners, coaching staff, and players and could be counted and trusted to get the whole story and present it in a fair way - that allowed them to break stories and be the guy the national people went to. Bucky, Sully, and Sal from Rochester- have lost/never developed those connections and have actually pushed the organizations away. Therefore very little gets out of OBD to the local team and we are left with the national guys breaking everything. Many markets - local guys get wind and are the sources to national guys - look to NY with Metta and Cleveland with Cabbott. These guys have established and cultivated their organizational contacts for years and don’t present the team as a bunch of bumwads - even though a place like Cleveland has had less success than Buffalo over the last 20 years and even lost their team. That is what TBN is/was missing - without a trusted source - the Bills and Sabres basically froze TBN out and the staff got more and more bitter. When Kryk in Toronto is actually one of the preferred and go to reporters over TBN - there is an issue.

Yes and as their team team has had more success and had players drafted and played higher competition- the number has gone up - including building a new stadium to house the increase in fans. If UB could take on a mantle of a powerhouse state school - like a Penn State or Ohio State or even a lesser degree Oklahoma State, NC State type and get some additional funding - they could increase their athletic pull more - and take over what Syracuse used to be - the dominant NYS athletic school.

We we will see, but I am not expecting big time signings unless there is someone that fits exactly what they are looking for and they can get him in their salary structure. It seems to me Beane has a certain price for every position and person and he does not at this time appear to chase to far outside his range. I would expect that to continue with them looking specifically at younger, talented players that are hard working. I would not not expect to see any high maintenance - me first - type WR divas (ala Dez) or Mario Williams top of the salary structure players, but I could see them scooping up several middle of the road FA like Hyde and Poyer to supplement their draft plans.

Agreed - what will be interesting is if he is double teamed as has been the case and was the case last year and in this Andy Reid system - Mahomes targets others significantly more - does his head and heart start to no longer be in it. Watkins has always had the talent, but something has always prevented the break-out - be it QB, injury, or how defenses play him.

Come on on we need to be concerned about time/space - this is a 4D league and we should be playing 4D chess against 2D checkers by this time. ?

Mahomes on OTA day 1 as starter threw 3 picks I believe it was and had a couple more dropped. Then the story came out about how Reid was throwing everything at him to see what he could and could not do. If Allen had thrown 3 picks like Mahomes or fumbled multiple snaps like Darnold - this place would have exploded. Heck even if he had the same practice as Mayfield with a few picks and some bad throws - people would be all over the place screaming bust. Instead it sounds like Allen has been sound and making good live throws both against air and with DBs. At this point it just means so little, but positive news is always better than negative.

I do not disagree that there can be middle ground, but neither of those guys is career backup material. Blake Bortles not only played out first contract, but was extended by his drafting team - that to me makes him their franchise QB - maybe not by a pure numbers perspective, but by how they have treated him. Josh was a flash in the pan that ended up busting. He never stuck anyplace as a back-up. To me a career backup is a guy like Matt Moore that has played in the league 10+ years only started more than 10 games 1 time, but is kept around because he can come in and steady a ship. See also Chase Daniels, T.J. Yates, Derek Anderson. Josh Allen if he plays at that type of mid level - Blake Bortles/Matt Moore - will probably still end up still starting a large number of games for Buffalo and being the starter - we fans may not be happy, but he was drafted to start. I just do not see Josh Allen sitting on the bench as a back-up for 10+ years to help stabilize when the starting QB is hurt - that does not fit it’s the skill set I have seen.

This is just poor trolling on your part - nothing has suggested he will be a career back-up player. If anything his his style and skill is totally boom or bust. He will either become a franchise player or totally flame out. Brett Farve/Aaron Rodgers or Jamarcus Russell/Ryan Leaf

I was not specifically thinking of you, but let’s talk a bit about that. I believe prior to the draft you started a specific thread about not drafting Josh Allen thread and several of his stats were used in the threads to prove your point. I will not pull the specifics, but I believe there were quotes along the lines of “he is being drafted because of how he looks not based upon the production on the field and therefore these guys nearly always bust.” Now you have gone back and watched “film” and have convinced yourself that he can be successful based eye test in college - even though the stats pre draft suggested to you he would bust. To me that is a total 180 degree change. I believe you even stated you threw your flip phone and the Bills were safe because you hated the pick in the draft thread. Look - I totally agree the PFF numbers in college mean nothing for projecting to the NFL because they will be totally switching offenses and personnel and because the style of offenses and the skill level of teammates is so different - you can’t even legitimately use the numbers to compare the different prospects. I just do not expect that Josh Allen is going to put up certain numbers in the NFL that are going to be better than TT for example. His TD to Int rate almost certainly will be worse and his completion percentage will be lower, but I think you will see an urgency, ability, and plays that are going to make TT a distant memory. The difficulty will be guys that love to praise the Bills QB (forgive me Transplant, but you are 1 of these going back to Edwards I believe) will point out the positive things he will be doing on the field because the stats most likely will not compare favorably to TT, while those that want to poop on everything the Bills do at QB will be pointing to the stats he produces and how they are a step below a guy like TT a guy they ran out of town. Obviously this is just my opinion, but it is how I see it will play out. I myself am hoping he puts up both production and stats and therefore we have a winner, but much as I was with TT - I want to see how he plays out to make a decision. I think long term he has the ability to be a stud and I love his attitude and talent - so we will see.

I think this nails it for me! Nice work ?

I agree - over the years I have agreed with him 1/3 to 1/2 the time, but over that time there have been only a few limited articles that I thought were well written. Tim Graham I have agreed with even less, but over the years I thought his articles were better researched and written and even though the articles usually take a more negative and extreme approach- I could at least read the article.

I think they could of taken his column, but without the buyout - I am not sure he would have left - he would have been paid with not much to do. They had a buyout in place and then took his column- leaving him little choice, but to take a nice sum and move on. He could of stayed on even now, but he got something to leave.

He has been negative for a long time and during that time the Bills went to 4 Super Bowls and the Playoffs In 11 of 13 seasons. The Sabres meanwhile went to the playoffs 15 out of 20 years at the start including a Stanley Cup and conference Finals. It is not like he came in during the drought and the tank at the same time. He did not agree with how the teams may have been run, but his attitude is way more than that. The Bills under Polian and Ralph were well run and received a lot of praise nationally, but he picked at many small issues. The Sabres under the Knox brothers were also well run and this should not have been an issue. He he wanted to be the contrarian view point and worked that angle for years - it just became all he could do and he had to top the hate to get his view across - so it became nastier and nastier until he lost his place at the table.

Look the Bills were mired in a 17 year drought, but during that time the Sabres were not that bad - they had several years of playoff runs and some deep including a Finals run during the drought. He he had no reason to become the scathing critic of both teams. The Sabres started their tank and shortly afterward the Bills started winning getting to 9 wins under Marrone, 8 under Rex and then 9 again under McDermott. The worst of the issues started with ownership changes with the Sabres and Sully’s attitude toward the Pegulas - that then crossed into the Bills even more. I think you hit a big part of his issue - his passion was Basketball and Baseball and he was forced to cover Hockey and Football. He was not happy in his job and that spilled over into his attitude. I have read Sully articles that are brilliant and well thought out - they just never dealt with his actual day to day job. If he had just been critical and objective- he would have been ok, but he chose to take it further and he made it personal and that is where he lost me and many others. He left fair and objective in the rear view mirror years ago and it became a vendetta on several levels. He was not a fawning reporter, but he also was not a fair and balanced critic. He would stand up and ask a few tough questions, but for the most part he tried to get these guys to make a contradictory statement so he could pounce - and when he got called for it - he went further negative. Really in the end end he had a job most of us would love and many of us do on our own time with less access, but he took an approach that many people over time did not like and in the end he could not change back to what he was in the early 90’s a true journalist with a fair approach.

Yes, but 20 years ago he actually was more objective and did actual work on columns. If he still did that he would still have a job. His worth is very little not just because o his age, but his attitude and ethics at this point.