Alphadawg7

So youre telling me Sammy was too mentally weak then, meaning he was always doomed. He went on to play with 4 of the best coaching staffs in the NFL, 2 first Ballot HOFers, 3 multiple MVP winning QBs, and one of the best offense minds in football. Yet you want to pretend because his start in Buffalo didn’t go perfect he was ruined forever? Lol But forget about Sammy. Name one team in NFL history that won a Super Bowl from an expensive trade up (multiple premium picks) for a WR. In the last 20 years, only 2 SB winning teams had a WR1 taken in the first 20 picks…Mike Evans (taken after Sammy) and 18 years go Marvin Harrison. You want a cautionary tale, how about it’s worked 0% of the time in NFL history. And that includes trading a bunch of picks for a proven one, not just rookies. This is maybe the best WR draft in NFL history too.

Huh? He played with McVay and Goff, then Mahomes, Rodgers, and Lamar. How many MVPs does he have to play with to reach his potential? LOL

Best reply of the off season.

Thats not an equal comparison. WR has never been the missing piece on a Super Bowl team. QB almost always has.

Nice post, really good actually, and I’m on the same page with most of this and agree with what you are saying. Admittedly, I think the only major difference is I have a higher level of confidence in Shakir being able to be capable to make some of those down field plays moving forward. And to just make sure there is no confusion, I am not projecting him to be that boundary deep type WR or even that he would play a lot there. But I do think he can be a Deebo Samuel type WR with better hands. Someone who is a menace in the short to mid areas of the field who is a dangerous YAC player and has the speed and savvy to take it up field or even to the house. I have no delusion, our future boundary and WR1 is coming from this draft. And I think it’s plausible we take a second WR on day 3 who can play on the boundary.

Ok, show me a team that won a Super Bowl after investing multiple first round picks into a WR. Just find me one to show me it’s a worthy investment.

In the real draft, not all of those WR's will be gone before we pick at 60. There is a lot of positions that may not see any activity in round 1 or very little that come into play in round 2 like LB, S, and RB to go along with a plethora of the second tier guys on DL, CB, and OL. This is rich and deep draft at WR, teams are not going to feel the pressure to press for one and more teams will take another position than people think that is going to see more fall off than WR will. Totally get people are split on where Legette will go. And I am in the camp that thinks Legette is a 2nd rounder, but probably 2nd half of the 2nd round. Doesn't mean he makes it to 60, but I do think he would be in a trade up range that isn't too expensive if Beane went another direction in the first and looked to make a move up in the 2nd. To be clear, I much prefer getting a WR somewhere in the first and not waiting too. Only discussing since we know its possible we don't get a WR in the first.

I do think they could move up for Thomas too, how far is up for debate. My guess is the same as you, probably needs to get to 20 or later. If we don't move up, then I think in the post Diggs era now that someone like Ladd McConkey who has that elite route running ability we are losing with Diggs becomes much more in play than before. In fact, I have a feeling the only 2 we would look at with pick 28 is Mitchell or McConkey. We could also move back and try and pick up say a 3rd this year and maybe still get McConkey, although I don't think he would make it past both Balt and KC personally. I have been very high on McConkey but wasn't sure if he would be high on the Bills board with Diggs here. But Diggs trade I think elevates his potential to us and he is my WR5 on board behind Thomas. Followed by Mitchell as the 6 guys I think we could take in the first. Not sold they would stay at 28 and take one of the other WR's. Could see them trading back a little bit or taking another position and then making a move for a WR in the 2nd. Be awesome if we could trade back a little bit and get back a 3rd and still get one of McConkey, Legette, Mitchell, etc.

Ok...how about this. There has never been a team who traded multiple first round picks for any WR that then won a Super Bowl. Or, in the last 20 years, one 2 Super Bowl winning teams had a top 20 drafted WR1 on the roster (Mike Evans and 18 years ago Marvin Harrison). How good was Randy Moss? How about Calvin Johnson? What about Julio Jones? These are considered to be amongst the GOATS and the most unguardable as it gets at WR and none of them have a SB ring. We just had Diggs for 4 years who was top 3 or top 5 WR during that span and didn't get us to but one AFCCG. Don't get me wrong, I want an elite WR as much as anyone to pair with Allen. But you don't mortgage your future for one, it isn't the recipe to get over the hump. Plus, this is Buffalo, its much more important to win in the trenches in those bad weather games late in the season and playoffs then try and win through the air in that bad weather. Not saying we can't trade up at all, just can't pay QB level compensation, especially in a draft that is maybe the best ever in talent and depth for WR's.

We did that with Sammy Watkins and they he turned out to not be the Alpha stud his draft hype made him out to be in a loaded WR class. We traded for Diggs because we had no shot at the elite 3 of Ruggs, Jeudy, and Lamb just to see Ruggs go bye bye, Jeudy be meh at best, and the best WR to be the guy who was on the board when we would have picked in Justin Jefferson who has a case as the best WR in the NFL right now. So just saying, its a lot to risk when so often the most hyped guys are not the best ones to emerge from the draft when you are talking about a loaded class. Would I be excited to get MHJ, Nabers, or Odunze...absolutely. But I really have a hard time spending QB level draft compensation to go get a WR in maybe the best WR draft ever.

Gotcha...misunderstood what you were saying about that, so thanks for clearing that up. To be clear, I am pretty sure he only had 3 drops as a rookie not 4. 2 in the reg season and the one playoff one you mentioned that was overturned on replay. But the one everyone harps on is the playoff one. Except they forget that was a rookie who had just 20 regular season targets in a playoff game catching a bullet rope from Allen that traveled on a rope 60 yards in the air. Should he have caught it, definitely, and he almost did, ball touched the ground on the roll over. But should that play now define him forever in terms what he can or can't do? No. Make no mistake about it, catching passes from a cannon arm like Allen takes time to adjust to. Ball gets there way faster and harder than you expect, and it takes reps and time to build up that timing and chemistry. Ask any WR or QB they will not only tell you the same, but also tell you its even more important than even I am saying. Shakir got just 20 targets all reg season, he was behind McKenzie and then Cole all year and playoffs. He wasn't getting a lot of first team reps. And he was now in his first playoff game catching a 60 yard pass on a rope from Allen. Still should have caught it, just saying maybe lets not define his career arc on what he can or can't do on this one single play. Its not like Diggs, Hill, Jefferson, etc haven't dropped easier passes than this one too, it happens. As far as training camp...I know that you and I both know that camp reports are useless and people get overly excited or down every camp over them. Perfect example...Shakir vs Gabe Davis. Davis was once again the "star" of camp and an unstoppable monster this same camp. How did that play out for Davis? Still meh...still dropping passes. Still disappeared. Meanwhile couple drops were mentioned out of the thousands of reps and drills they run in camp by Shakir and now everyone was like he sucks, cant catch, is nothing but a 4th or 5th WR who then goes out and leads the NFL in catch rate and led the Bills in receiving under Joe Brady. So yeah...lets not talk about camp news as if that is any indicator of anything. I know you feel the same way about that because you get mad when people were believing the hype on Davis or amping up some camp fodder scrub. And for the record...I agree with the bolded too above. Keep in mind, I am not claiming him to be a boundary WR, just saying he will be more than a typical slot WR and can move around.

FWIW...Here is Josh Allen, Kyle Allen, and Jordan Palmer with high praise for Shakir and Allen talking about keeping his momentum going this year. From an interview last week. CLICK HERE FOR CLIP DISCUSSING SHAKIR The whole interview is a fun one if you want to watch the whole thing. I clipped the Shakir part which is about 45 seconds, but whole interview is just over 8 minutes. Josh talks about WR's in the draft, talks up Kincaid and Shakir, and there is a funny golf story between the 3 of them at the end as well. Below is a link to the full interview if you rather watch the full interview. High praise for Kincaid was good to hear too, another guy I am excited to see grow now with Diggs and his 160 target volume gone.

Absolutely fair points...the way I see it though is that this offense has more talent on it than people give it credit for now and will be adding more talent to the WR group here shortly. And with the spread the ball around offense we have, its going to be hard for them to key on Shakir maybe much more than they have because Kincaid is likely going to be even better, Samuel is still got to be considered, and whatever outside WR(s) we add are as well like in the draft or maybe by trade (but most likely early in the draft).

Lol...there is no point in discussing Rex with you because you aren't discussing Rex, you are just disguising this convo to be about Rex when its really about your disdain for McD. So because we are clearly not discussing the same thing lets just move on. There is a reason Rex was fired before the end of his second season and its not because he was good at his job.

I dont disagree with either of you, and I am totally team go get a WR, and have been before the Diggs trade. My only real point is that I am pretty sure there is no team that has ever won a Super Bowl from trading a bounty to get a WR. So while I am all for making a move up in this draft, I am just not for gutting our future to do so as many have suggested in other threads. I am even willing to use our first next year now that we have 2 second rounders to get someone like Nabers, Odunze, or Thomas if the opportunity is there. But I am seeing people wanting to send 1st and 2nd rounders both this year and next year, and even some with more picks than that included. That is a QB level trade up compensation. You only spend that kind of money to get franchise altering players like a QB.

Fair, but he didn't do much of anything as a rookie that he was expected to do. Admittedly, I was not high on him coming out of the draft, so I am more critical of his rookie year and off the field stupidity.

But he isn't a ball dropper, he led the NFL for all receivers in catch rate. He isn't that vertical outside threat, but neither is Deebo Samuel for example who is actually a ball dropper. But it is what Deebo can do with the ball in his hands that makes him different. Its also how dangerous he can be in that short to mid zone. The bigger issue is his shorter arms when it comes to his down field game, he has a lower margin of error on the throw with a smaller catch radius as he isn't the go up and get it WR Diggs was in his similar sized frame. But he can still attack the deeper part of the field, especially out of the slot. And as far as stopping his feet, not sure how a WR 40 yards down field stops his feet without the ball going past them unless its to catch an underthrown ball. If you haven't already, I encourage you to watch the highlight reel in my OP because he makes a lot of his catches in stride down field and he only stops or comes back on underthrown passes.

Yet the back to back reigning Super Bowl champs fielded one of the worst stable of WR's the past 2 years in the league. And no one wants to go cheap, where you get that from is beyond me. But you however do want to go nuclear and give away a bounty to get every aging WR potentially available or give up the farm to go get a rookie in what is the richest WR draft maybe ever. Speaking of giving up the farm to trade up...do you know how many Super Bowl winners had lead WR's drafted in the top 20 picks of the draft in the last 20 years? Just 2...Mike Evans and 18 years ago Marvin Harrison. Yet you have been wanting to mortgage our future to move up high in this draft for a WR in what is one of the best WR drafts ever despite that it does not correlate with the kind of success you think it does in the NFL. Just like how so many people wanted to mortgage our future to go get Henry Ruggs or Jerry Jeudy the year we traded for Diggs and were mad we gave up so much for Diggs instead of trading up for one of them. They sucked, and the best WR in that draft ended being a guy who would have been there when we picked in Justin Jefferson who did not have nearly as much support here as those guys did and most were not a fan of taking him in the first because he was a "slot" in college. People like Tee Higgins even less who was drafted in the 2nd round, also substantially better than both Ruggs and Jeudy. So is not about being cheap, its about you don't have to mortgage your future to get a WR either and doesn't automatically correlate to SB success. Its also about your draft slot means nothing once the pads go on. Look at Diggs, Antonio Brown, etc. Just because Shakir was a 5th rounder doesn't mean he has a low ceiling or we are going "cheap". Shakir has earned his role thus far, and will continue to have to earn more targets, it won't be handed to him. By no means should they count it or not go draft a WR early...We need to add boundary WRs this draft, and I think we might add 2.

I never said he wouldn't start, he was already the starter at that time. I said he was a gadget player who had no business starting and he wouldn't be anything more than what he had been. Again, all good though, its not like we were grossly apart on it. We don't often disagree like that, and it was just that this one disagreement stuck out for me given McKenzie wasn't all that interesting of a topic and we discussed it as much as we did. We don't often disagree, it was more that. So I guess it gave me more of an impression that you were higher on McKenzie than maybe you were. Again, all good though man.

Rex took over what was an underachieving team. There is a reason a coach get fired before the season is even over. He took over what I believe was the #4 Defense in the league and immediately sunk it to the bottom of the league. If you think the job Rex did is anywhere near the level of coaching McD has done, then I don't know what to say to that. That is pretty astonishing. One is one of the longest tenured coaches in the NFL with a great win/loss record and the other was fired in season before he finished his 2nd year here and hasn't had any HC interest since and only been sniffed around as a DC. If McD gets fired, he will have HC interest from other teams out the gate.

Haha all good. Been a fun topic regardless, enjoying everyone’s input. Best part about this, even if I am wrong, odds are he still proves to be a very good support player for us. But I just have this feeling I can’t shake that he has that extra something in him that sees him get to a higher level than most think he will be.

Lol…except that wasn’t what we were really discussing or disagreeing over in regards to McKenzie. But it’s all good, I certainly remember you being pretty active supporting and defending McKenzie that preseason against the criticisms being presented. You feel different, so be it. All good either way

Rex was a disaster as a coach. He took over a team he was supposed to elevate, not suck. Not just public perception, but even by players accounts. McD took over a team that immediately went into a tear down and full 100% rebuild...and McD made the playoffs with the roster Rex had after they traded away our #1 WR, starting corner, and best DT. I feel like this is when a girl leaves an abusive relationship and then forgets and gets back together again with them later. Like they just gloss over all the bad like it didn't happen.

I agree, I am not saying he is going to be the DeAndre Hopkins of the Bills, but I do think he will be more than the role people are limiting his ceiling too. I know there are others who have been high on him and a bigger season this year will be no surprise, but most aren't other than as a role player. Just read this thread.

All I remember is whenever I said McKenzie is not a starter you would disagree and say he is going to have a career year. Which is pretty easy to say when his previous career year is the equivalent of just 30 targets. All good though, we are on the same page on many topics, that one always stuck out with me as one you were oddly always disagreeing with me a lot on. I wasn't saying you compared Shakir to Cole, was referencing that comparison that has been said a lot in general. I don't have a significant issue with your stance on Shakir, its not overly negative by any means. Where I disagree is that he is solely this traditional "slot" guy only, even though I agree he will eat the most from the slot. Even in my post in May of 2022 I said I felt he had the potential to be the best slot WR in the NFL. And the reason I said that is because he can be very dangerous out of the slot attacking all 3 phases of the field.