Alphadawg7

Fair, but he didn't do much of anything as a rookie that he was expected to do. Admittedly, I was not high on him coming out of the draft, so I am more critical of his rookie year and off the field stupidity.

But he isn't a ball dropper, he led the NFL for all receivers in catch rate. He isn't that vertical outside threat, but neither is Deebo Samuel for example who is actually a ball dropper. But it is what Deebo can do with the ball in his hands that makes him different. Its also how dangerous he can be in that short to mid zone. The bigger issue is his shorter arms when it comes to his down field game, he has a lower margin of error on the throw with a smaller catch radius as he isn't the go up and get it WR Diggs was in his similar sized frame. But he can still attack the deeper part of the field, especially out of the slot. And as far as stopping his feet, not sure how a WR 40 yards down field stops his feet without the ball going past them unless its to catch an underthrown ball. If you haven't already, I encourage you to watch the highlight reel in my OP because he makes a lot of his catches in stride down field and he only stops or comes back on underthrown passes.

Yet the back to back reigning Super Bowl champs fielded one of the worst stable of WR's the past 2 years in the league. And no one wants to go cheap, where you get that from is beyond me. But you however do want to go nuclear and give away a bounty to get every aging WR potentially available or give up the farm to go get a rookie in what is the richest WR draft maybe ever. Speaking of giving up the farm to trade up...do you know how many Super Bowl winners had lead WR's drafted in the top 20 picks of the draft in the last 20 years? Just 2...Mike Evans and 18 years ago Marvin Harrison. Yet you have been wanting to mortgage our future to move up high in this draft for a WR in what is one of the best WR drafts ever despite that it does not correlate with the kind of success you think it does in the NFL. Just like how so many people wanted to mortgage our future to go get Henry Ruggs or Jerry Jeudy the year we traded for Diggs and were mad we gave up so much for Diggs instead of trading up for one of them. They sucked, and the best WR in that draft ended being a guy who would have been there when we picked in Justin Jefferson who did not have nearly as much support here as those guys did and most were not a fan of taking him in the first because he was a "slot" in college. People like Tee Higgins even less who was drafted in the 2nd round, also substantially better than both Ruggs and Jeudy. So is not about being cheap, its about you don't have to mortgage your future to get a WR either and doesn't automatically correlate to SB success. Its also about your draft slot means nothing once the pads go on. Look at Diggs, Antonio Brown, etc. Just because Shakir was a 5th rounder doesn't mean he has a low ceiling or we are going "cheap". Shakir has earned his role thus far, and will continue to have to earn more targets, it won't be handed to him. By no means should they count it or not go draft a WR early...We need to add boundary WRs this draft, and I think we might add 2.

I never said he wouldn't start, he was already the starter at that time. I said he was a gadget player who had no business starting and he wouldn't be anything more than what he had been. Again, all good though, its not like we were grossly apart on it. We don't often disagree like that, and it was just that this one disagreement stuck out for me given McKenzie wasn't all that interesting of a topic and we discussed it as much as we did. We don't often disagree, it was more that. So I guess it gave me more of an impression that you were higher on McKenzie than maybe you were. Again, all good though man.

Rex took over what was an underachieving team. There is a reason a coach get fired before the season is even over. He took over what I believe was the #4 Defense in the league and immediately sunk it to the bottom of the league. If you think the job Rex did is anywhere near the level of coaching McD has done, then I don't know what to say to that. That is pretty astonishing. One is one of the longest tenured coaches in the NFL with a great win/loss record and the other was fired in season before he finished his 2nd year here and hasn't had any HC interest since and only been sniffed around as a DC. If McD gets fired, he will have HC interest from other teams out the gate.

Haha all good. Been a fun topic regardless, enjoying everyone’s input. Best part about this, even if I am wrong, odds are he still proves to be a very good support player for us. But I just have this feeling I can’t shake that he has that extra something in him that sees him get to a higher level than most think he will be.

Lol…except that wasn’t what we were really discussing or disagreeing over in regards to McKenzie. But it’s all good, I certainly remember you being pretty active supporting and defending McKenzie that preseason against the criticisms being presented. You feel different, so be it. All good either way

Rex was a disaster as a coach. He took over a team he was supposed to elevate, not suck. Not just public perception, but even by players accounts. McD took over a team that immediately went into a tear down and full 100% rebuild...and McD made the playoffs with the roster Rex had after they traded away our #1 WR, starting corner, and best DT. I feel like this is when a girl leaves an abusive relationship and then forgets and gets back together again with them later. Like they just gloss over all the bad like it didn't happen.

I agree, I am not saying he is going to be the DeAndre Hopkins of the Bills, but I do think he will be more than the role people are limiting his ceiling too. I know there are others who have been high on him and a bigger season this year will be no surprise, but most aren't other than as a role player. Just read this thread.

All I remember is whenever I said McKenzie is not a starter you would disagree and say he is going to have a career year. Which is pretty easy to say when his previous career year is the equivalent of just 30 targets. All good though, we are on the same page on many topics, that one always stuck out with me as one you were oddly always disagreeing with me a lot on. I wasn't saying you compared Shakir to Cole, was referencing that comparison that has been said a lot in general. I don't have a significant issue with your stance on Shakir, its not overly negative by any means. Where I disagree is that he is solely this traditional "slot" guy only, even though I agree he will eat the most from the slot. Even in my post in May of 2022 I said I felt he had the potential to be the best slot WR in the NFL. And the reason I said that is because he can be very dangerous out of the slot attacking all 3 phases of the field.

Then maybe you haven't read this thread where most either are unsure about him or disagree he can be more than a role player.

Thank you sir

Rex wouldn't have the record McD has to keep him around this long. Have people forgotten how bad the Rex coaching era was?

Odunze is my favorite WR for this team of the top 3 to be honest and the one I hope falls to a range where we might go up and get him. He is the kind of WR that can be dominant in good or bad weather, something we need. His ability to go get the ball is best in class. I would be ecstatic if we ended up with him in this draft, but just don't want to pay QB level trade compensation to do so as that is crazy to do in a draft this good at WR. I think if Odunze can get into the mid to late teens he gets into realistic trade up territory where I can see Beane sending 28 and next years first for him, which is more palatable now that we got an extra second next year. But some of these trade ideas others have of sending like 5 picks to go up to top 10 to get him is insane. If it costs more than our first next year, its too much in a draft this good for WR's

Sorry Gunner, and again, no disrespect, but you disagreed with me a lot about McKenzie specifically. I wasn't saying you disagreed with Shakir back then as I know you liked the Shakir pick in the draft, and I know you agreed and felt he was the future of the position, as a lot of us did. But what I am talking about is my specific criticism of McKenzie. I repeatedly stated he is not a starter, that he won't give us much more than we had already seen from him. These are the things you kept disagreeing with on, specifically on McKenzie and his ability to contribute as a starter that season and what we would get from him that year. And I was exactly right about everything I said about McKenzie that whole offseason that so many disagreed about. He was so bad the team desperately signed back Cole to get McKenzie off the field with Crowder out and Dorsey not interested in getting Shakir on the field as a rookie. To be clear here on Shakir, I have not claimed Shakir can be a primary boundary player. What I have said is he is not a slot only guy, he can move inside and out, and already has for us last year alone. Even in my OP I said his biggest short coming is his shorter arms. And also, people pigeon hole "slot" WR's as if they are short area players only. Shakir can attack all the levels of the defense out of the slot and has the skills to do that. So even when lined up in the slot doesn't mean he is restricted to stereotype of what people think of when they think of a "slot" WR. Most people just picture the Cole Beasley role, but that is such a lazy and poor comparison for his style and skill set.

No disrespect Gunner, but you also heavily disagreed and defended McKenzie to me when I said all offseason and training camp he was not good enough to be a starter for this team and wouldn't do a whole lot more than he has done before. And I even said the team knows it which is why they drafted Shakir and signed Crowder after bringing McKenzie back on that 2 year deal. And this is another example where I think you are off again on the WR analysis here. Shakir is more than a slot only guy, he is a totally different player than Cole who was only capable of playing in the slot. And Shakir showed that last year already where he moved inside and out in this offense and wasn't just strictly a slot. But I do agree he will probably eat the most from the slot, but he isn't restricted there like someone like Cole was. And more importantly, Allen loves utilizing his slot WR, so he can be highly productive out of the slot for this team and at a higher degree then Cole because he can attack the seems and deep posts with his speed from the slot rather than just more those short area move the chain zones where Cole made his bread and butter.

So what you are saying is know nothing about Shakir then. Got it. He isn't small, he is the same size or bigger as a number of great WR1's including Diggs. He isn't slow, he is faster than Diggs and has a 4.43 forty which is faster than a lot of the WR's people want us to draft in round 1. Not good at YAC? Are you serious? Lol, he has been EXCELLENT at YAC and averaged over 15.6 yards per catch because of it. Drops? He had the highest catch rate in the league for a WR and had 0 drops. So yeah...another one of those "I know nothing but gonna respond with nonsense anyway just based on my uninformed opinion posts".

Why do you think he doesn't have those when he showed plenty of times he can do that last year alone and did it in college?

He is more than a slot WR. Same size, speed and build as a lot of great WR1's both now and historically. This notion he is only a slot WR isn't accurate, he can play inside and out. Cole was only a slot WR for example...Lance Moore was only a slot WR. These are not the same players as Shakir nor the same skill sets.

I didn’t say he’s getting to 1200 yards, I said based on his efficiency last year he would have reached 1200 yards on 90 targets.

I don't disagree with your premise here or the impact a rookie may have. Just prior to the Diggs trade, I was asked by a poster here to layout what I thought of Shakir. And I said I confidently will say he can be a 1000+ yard WR this year on a number of teams in the NFL, but he will likely never be in Buffalo as long as Diggs is here because of the 160 targets Diggs commands every year. You can't catch what isn't thrown to you, and outside of Diggs we still had Samuel, Kincaid, Cook, etc who will all get their own targets. So felt it was unlikely anyone outside of Diggs would breach 1000 yards with so many mouths to feed and Diggs target share. However, now we are post Diggs era earlier than expected. Shakir is now the only WR on the team with any rapport and experience with Josh. And we are coming off a year where Shakir was arguably the best WR down the stretch and in the playoffs and he led the team in receiving over that stretch. So there is going to be a bigger role and confidence to start the season unlike last year where he was only on the field 11% of the snaps early in the season under Dorsey (who is a fool). We also know that McD and this team prefer to ease Rookies along rather than lean on them hard out the gate. While I think it is plausible that we will see a rookie start as early as week 1 this year, I don't think it is plausible that he will see any where near Diggs target share. But there is still Samuel too along with Kincaid, Knox, and Cook too. So I think the floor for targets for Shakir is probably 60 targets and the ceiling is probably 120 targets this year with how many mouths we have to feed. Personally, I think he will finish personally between 90 and 110 targets in a spread the ball around offense, and based on last year, just 90 targets would have put him over 1200 yards with the level of efficiency he played with.

Its all good, and to be clear, I am not saying you are wrong about Lance. I am more saying I think you are wrong on limiting Shakirs potential to be what Lance was. Not saying Lance Moore was a scrub, but he was never more than a role player most of his career. Nothing against Lance Moore, but I do confidently believe Shakir has a higher ceiling than Moore and will have the better career. Doesn't mean Lance had a bad career, I just firmly believe Shakir has a higher ceiling than that. I will give you this...I would say I think Shakirs floor is more in line with Lance Moore. I think Shakir already showed he can handle that type of role last year moving forward. Where we differ is that I think his ceiling is higher than that and I have confidence he is going to show that.

Thanks, that is mainly because I have only done them when I had a very strong conviction about the topic I was discussing. If you haven't already, urge you to just watch the highlights of Shakir this season in my OP. I get highlight reels can make anyone look good, but these are not just routine plays he is making and he was the most reliable target on the team to boot. You can see the route running, the soft hands, the intelligence and quick feet to break off and get open for Josh to make a big play to him when Josh is moving around to extend a play, the toughness and speed after the catch, the way he gets extra yards on almost every catch, his great feet along the sidelines, etc. We will see...but yeah, I just feel it again with him and comfortable putting that out there with confidence again.

Yeah, what makes Kupp special is his sudden movement speed combined with how smart he is as a player. But, Puka Nacua is an interesting one to bring up. Having watched him all year, I kept saying (even posted on here) that if Shakir had been in LA this year instead of Puka, he would have put up a big season too with a target load like that. However, Puka plays bigger than Shakir, so not sure their styles line up as much as say their roles would. I think Shakir would have filled in that role in a similar fashion statistically, but Puka does use that size in his play and is a bit more physical in his game before the catch. Shakir is physical after the catch, but he doesn't have the size or arm length to play big before the catch.

Sorry that just isn't accurate. Kupp was not seen as a true WR1 prior to the Stafford season, that was the point. I live in LA, watch every Rams game. When he had 92 and 94 catches, he only broke 1000 yards once and Robert Woods operated more as the WR1 role, but most people kind of felt the Rams had two WR2 guys in Woods and Kupp. Kupp did not enter true WR1 and top end WR status until that monster year with Stafford that no one saw coming where he had 800 more yards than his best career season. By the way, Kupp only has 2 seasons in his career over 1000 yards. But see...here is the issue. STATS don't compare styles. You are comparing stats. I am talking about the style of play. Shakir and Kupp have a similar style of play and if you watch both long enough you can see it. Shakir openly discusses studying Kupp and patterning his game off how he plays too. Are they the exact same player no, but they have similar styles. And sorry, picking the 3 best stat lines (which are mostly mediocre) of a long career full of sub par stat lines for Moore does not at all translate into a fair comparison to Shakir. Again, I will with extreme confidence say he will have a better career and be a better player than Lance Moore was. He was a decent role player with a couple decent seasons in his career, but that was about it.