America's Ten Fastest Dying Cities!

[kegtapr]

How come the Ontario shore in Rochester smells so bad?...uggggh that beach near Charlotte....its greenish brown and smells like a Bombay sewage treatment plant.

 

Something to do with the Genesee River meeting the water and the pier cutting of the circulation. At least those are the parts I remember from yearly news reports about it.

 

I was out near Sodus Bay yesterday and the water was clear and odor free.

[Whites Bay]

Yes and no - there are cracks in the dikes from which some are trying to divert and once it is diverted once there will be no end to the diversions. The example you mentioned Nevada is not the immediate danger but communities like NYC & Cincinnati which are outside of Great Lakes basin but want to tap into the water. In Wisconsin the western communities are already starting to fight to have access to the water.

 

Fair enough. "Starting to fight" is one thing. "Succeeding" is another. The legislation that is the Great Lakes Compact started out of an episode in (?) 1997 or 1998 when a company - I believe a Canadian company - started selling water from the Great Lakes to China. That schit got stompted upon in a New York Minute. But it still took 10 years for all 8 states (apologies, Pat Leahy and Vermont, but you don't count with Lake Champlain) and two Canadian Provinces to sign off on the agreement, and to have said agreement passed in the Federal Legistlature of both countries.

 

Okay, so there are a few Wisconsin communities that are pissed off and are going to light the torches and pitchforks and march on the collective capitals to change a law that took a decade for TWO NATIONS JUST TO GET TO THE POINT OF SIGNATURE.

 

Hello, Satan speaking. Not a lot of snow down here, but I'm waiting.......

 

"Libby" - Carly Simon

[Whites Bay]

Something to do with the Genesee River meeting the water and the pier cutting of the circulation. At least those are the parts I remember from yearly news reports about it.

 

I was out near Sodus Bay yesterday and the water was clear and odor free.

 

You're correct. A million years ago I worked a summer job with the Monroe County Environmental Services Department. As a 20-year-old. I got to take water samples from streams and beaches around Monroe County and check them for turbidity and bacterial content. Such a most-excellently-cool job. I was the "Richard" who got to call WBBF and WCMF to close down Charlotte. That's right - ME. I'm the dick that did that to you several decades ago, and ruined so many parties. And I loved it.

 

The reason Charlotte can be such a schit hole is that the piers were designed in a time when no one thought about current flow. The Rochester harbor was designed to allow freighters to move in and out, and to provide shelter during line squalls - not mitigating algal growth. So the piers were built of steel-reinforced concrete with steel plating that interrupted the normal west-to-east current. The result? All that Cladophora piles up on the west beach next to the pier. And rots. It's not as bad as it was back in the 1960s and 1970s with all the dying alewives (Pseudoharengus sp.), but it's still pretty gruesome. Structures like that wouldn't be allowed anymore. Anything that even approximates those piers would have channels built into the to allow cross flow. That won't help Charlotte. It's always going to be downwind from hell because of those piers.

 

Drink up!

[/dev/null]

Buffalo-Rochester-Syracuse: The Buffalo Bills main US fan base. I wonder how Toronto, CN is doing!?!

 

America's Fastest Dying Cities

 

1. Flint, MI

2. Cleveland, OH

3. BUFFALO, NY

4. Pittsburgh, PA

5. Dyaton, OH

6. Hialeah, FL

7. Toledo, OH

8. ROCHESTER, NY

9. SYRACUSE, NY

10. Jackson, MS

 

http://realestate.aol.com/pictures/finance/dying-cities?pg=1

 

The only surprise there is a Florida and Mississippi city listed

 

The PA/OH/NY/MI cities on the other hand, there's a reason it's called the Rust Belt

[Tcali]

You're correct. A million years ago I worked a summer job with the Monroe County Environmental Services Department. As a 20-year-old. I got to take water samples from streams and beaches around Monroe County and check them for turbidity and bacterial content. Such a most-excellently-cool job. I was the "Richard" who got to call WBBF and WCMF to close down Charlotte. That's right - ME. I'm the dick that did that to you several decades ago, and ruined so many parties. And I loved it.

 

The reason Charlotte can be such a schit hole is that the piers were designed in a time when no one thought about current flow. The Rochester harbor was designed to allow freighters to move in and out, and to provide shelter during line squalls - not mitigating algal growth. So the piers were built of steel-reinforced concrete with steel plating that interrupted the normal west-to-east current. The result? All that Cladophora piles up on the west beach next to the pier. And rots. It's not as bad as it was back in the 1960s and 1970s with all the dying alewives (Pseudoharengus sp.), but it's still pretty gruesome. Structures like that wouldn't be allowed anymore. Anything that even approximates those piers would have channels built into the to allow cross flow. That won't help Charlotte. It's always going to be downwind from hell because of those piers.

 

Drink up!

thanks for the explanation...altho i was there 2 years ago at that beach and the water wasa horrible sewage brown green and the smell would drive off buzzards or large lizards

[Tcali]

Something to do with the Genesee River meeting the water and the pier cutting of the circulation. At least those are the parts I remember from yearly news reports about it.

 

I was out near Sodus Bay yesterday and the water was clear and odor free.

i loved sodus bay when i was a young buck.....ahh them nice young chikkies

[DieHardFan]

The truth hurts. The longer the reply the more in denial.

[zazie]

The truth hurts. The longer the reply the more in denial.

The world population skyrockets. It is odd that ANY city is dying actually. IMO Buffalo will recover as the world runs out of fresh water. But that may take awhile and if the can lessen the cost of water desalinization, that time may never come. Maybe it is lucky for those who stay, less population is certainly something many other cities badly need.

[JPicc2114]

So basically all the manufacturing cities......

 

 

Everything is going overseas, so if you want a job go to college and get an office job.

[TheChimp]

Could you imagine a WNY like this? Stop the sprawl, and rededicate to the City. Be unified, and maximize the area for what it has.

 

But who am I?

Um, someone destined for a career in planning and development for the city of Buffalo, I hope. Heck, I'd move back for that.

[PearlHowardman]

All very interesting responses.

 

But if Buffalo and Rochester are anything like here in Syracuse, the people aren't leaving the cities for the suburbs. They're leaving for North Carolina, Florida, Texas, etc.

 

Sorry!

[John Adams]

The world population skyrockets. It is odd that ANY city is dying actually. IMO Buffalo will recover as the world runs out of fresh water. But that may take awhile and if the can lessen the cost of water desalinization, that time may never come. Maybe it is lucky for those who stay, less population is certainly something many other cities badly need.

 

The third world pop skyrockets. In the developed world, most populations are on the decline. The US population is holding steady because of immigrants.

[JohnC]

Casinos would bring in tourists. It would keep money IN Buffalo. It would boost local business, it would generate revenue, period. Pittsburgh has built a casino, because they see the benefit. Have it all right in downtown. Why incur the cost of all of that infrastructure?

 

I hope you are not using Atlantic City as an example to make your point???? Having Casinos located in one area such as Niagra Falls is a better direction to take rather than having them spread around the region, depleting the customer base of one another.

[JohnC]

Cleveland and Pittsburgh have populations high enough that their respective NFL teams can handle the loss.

 

The combined populations of Buffalo-Rochester-Syracuse don't give the Bills any kind of luxury.

 

The Steelers win because they have quality ownership and organization. The Bills lose because they have poor ownership and an inept organization. No matter what the population base is for these two cities, each gets exceptional fan support.

[rpcolosi]

Buffalo-Rochester-Syracuse: The Buffalo Bills main US fan base. I wonder how Toronto, CN is doing!?!

 

America's Fastest Dying Cities

 

1. Flint, MI

2. Cleveland, OH

3. BUFFALO, NY

4. Pittsburgh, PA

5. Dyaton, OH

6. Hialeah, FL

7. Toledo, OH

8. ROCHESTER, NY

9. SYRACUSE, NY

10. Jackson, MS

 

http://realestate.aol.com/pictures/finance/dying-cities?pg=1

 

 

theres this thing called the suburbs. buffalonians move there

[ExiledInIllinois]

Don't worry, scientists predict that in the next 50 yrs there will be a HUGE fresh water crisis in the USA, especially in the South, Soutwest and West. Places that have huge fresh water lakes sitting next to them like Buffalo, Cleveland, Toledo, Detroit, Rochester, etc.. are poised to make giant comebacks when the populations and large businesses move towards that direction.

 

I know what you said about populations moving TOWARDS the water... That we will have to wait and see. Yet, will put added stress on a very fragile ecosystem where water seems to be dwindling (even through a lake like Lake Michigan seems to be rebounding with higher water levels for the first time in about 10 years).

 

For the people who think that the water will move towards them, fat chance IMO. Do you think Canada and states like Michigan... They (especially Michigan) already piss and moan and throw up every obstructionist barrier against Illinois. Like I said a ton of times... Water only leaves the Great Lakes forever in mass in TWO places... The St. Lawrence and at Chicago. At Chicago that level is set around 3,600 CFS by the US Supreme Court. I even heard rumors that diversion might be cut down to ZERO by 2020 for stuff like navigation.

[Mr. WEO]

How come the Ontario shore in Rochester smells so bad?...uggggh that beach near Charlotte....its greenish brown and smells like a Bombay sewage treatment plant.

 

Took my son to Detroit Auto Show this winter. That is the strangest town I have ever been to. Saturday Morning. Noon. Downtown. No one around. Street level shops vacant. Whole buildings--right downtown, 20 stories---abandoned. Stayed at the GM tower hotel. Beautiful view of the city. No cars on the street on Saturday night. There was this massive old hotel seen from the highway to and from the airprot on the edge of town---just an empty hulking structure. No windows intact.

 

It was very strange.

 

 

 

 

I live on the Lake Ontario. Smells fine and a beautiful sunset (on the water) shines into every room in my house every nite.

 

Awesome.

[ExiledInIllinois]

The water's going nowhere. Last year, amidst absolutely zero fanfare (thank God) the Great Lakes Compact was passed and signed into law. The water of the Great Lakes can only be used by those COUNTIES in those states which border the lake, and which are part of the drainage basin. So, for example, Lake Ontario water can't even be diverted to Sullivan or Rockland Counties. I'm sitting here looking at a beautiful bay in the Eastern Basin of Lake Ontario.....and it's going to be here forever. NOT watering some goddamn golf course in Nevada.

 

 

Not true to a certain point. At work everytime I open the gates to the controlling lock to let a vessel downbound, I divert about 2 millions gallons of water (about 1 million gallons per foot of head or difference between Lake Michigan and our lower pool (Lockport pool). On a busy Sunday... We are locking every 15-20 minutes NON-STOP... That can be about 60 lockages a day... Cut that in half and that is how much we are approximately diverting of the Great Lakes never to return.

 

Nice thing about Lake Ontario is that the water elevations are controlled through the SeaWay... Ontario hasn't really seen the decline in water levels the others have seen... Yet, that can be a bad thing... The lakes have been going through cycles like this for thousands of years... And sometimes the lakes need that "regeneration." Right now Lake Michigan has been int he + elevation (zero being the lake's elevation off of mean sea level datum) for the better part of this year... Actually, this is the first time it has done that in about 10 years!

[zazie]

All very interesting responses.

 

But if Buffalo and Rochester are anything like here in Syracuse, the people aren't leaving the cities for the suburbs. They're leaving for North Carolina, Florida, Texas, etc.

 

Sorry!

It's cold up there. And you are not required to stay, it is not soviet era siberia.

 

I had a buddy from South Carolina there a few yeare ago in the winter and he was astonished anyone would stay, why would they? I do understand why people stay in those cities, but he had a point too. And that is the point that is being taken by more and more Buffalonians, Rocherterians, Clevenders, et al.

 

It will get worse, before it gets better, the population declines.

 

Hopefully the cities will adjust appropriately to being smaller. I guess they will have too.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Yes and no - there are cracks in the dikes from which some are trying to divert and once it is diverted once there will be no end to the diversions. The example you mentioned Nevada is not the immediate danger but communities like NYC & Cincinnati which are outside of Great Lakes basin but want to tap into the water. In Wisconsin the western communities are already starting to fight to have access to the water.

 

Which is rightly so. Only place I can see it (more diversion) actually get through the system. Of course a big factor is that Lake Michigan is the only lake that is 100% United States... Yet, Lake Huron is at the same elevation... And Superior's flow through the Soo (Sault Ste. Marie) can be kept in check... Unless the water in Superior starts getting really high.

 

Again... Michigan would make a holy stink about any further diversion say by a state like WI... Just as they have been fighting with Illinois for better half of the last 100 years.

 

Will we witness a tragedy of commons when it comes to certain stuff like this??

[zazie]

Which is rightly so. Only place I can see it (more diversion) actually get through the system. Of course a big factor is that Lake Michigan is the only lake that is 100% United States... Yet, Lake Huron is at the same elevation... And Superior's flow through the Soo (Sault Ste. Marie) can be kept in check... Unless the water in Superior starts getting really high.

 

Again... Michigan would make a holy stink about any further diversion say by a state like WI... Just as they have been fighting with Illinois for better half of the last 100 years.

 

Will we witness a tragedy of commons when it comes to certain stuff like this??

The real situation is sadly like the oil in Alaska or the water in CDolorado.

 

Eventually, when needed, there will be a breakdown in sensible controls and the great lakes water will be exploited, by federal decree if that what it takes, by large dry cities in this nation.

 

Look at what China is doing to the poor Mekong river.

 

We don't even need that oil really but they are making a big mess. Same coming soon as the mississipi declines and all the cities need that water; it will come from the great lakes, then the finger lakes, etc.

 

Mans inhospitality to earth will not allow those lakes to stand for more than 50-100 more years, no matter what laws are in place now.

 

Sorry. Really.

[ExiledInIllinois]

What an idiotic article. Have these ignaramuses ever been to Gary, IN? ... the state of Indiana... Worst Verginia (spelled with the backwoods accent)? Come on.

 

I spent yesterday morning in Rochester and the afternoon in Buffalo. Unemployment and NY Welfare pay very well these days (at my exp). Both towns we're bustling, busy and well-watered from 20+ consecutive days of rain.

 

Gary and the Port of Indiana still have ships coming into harbor... You'd be surprised what comesin and out of there... Now BFLO is TOTALLY dead. Amoco has a big refinery in Whiting, Indiana... Indiana harbor is bustling compared to BFLO... Maybe not what once was... But, ships call port from all over the world... It is still a big break in bulk port. Just a rough estimate I would say over a million ton of chemical, crude, and other similar types of products makes its way through the Illinois WaterWay headed to or from Indiana.

 

Indiana is BOOMING COMPARED TO BFLO. Of course you don't see it, because modern methods have been so streamlined.

[Heart Throb]

30 years ago is calling and wants it story back.

 

True that

[ExiledInIllinois]

The real situation is sadly like the oil in Alaska or the water in CDolorado.

 

Eventually, when needed, there will be a breakdown in sensible controls and the great lakes water will be exploited, by federal decree if that what it takes, by large dry cities in this nation.

 

Look at what China is doing to the poor Mekong river.

 

We don't even need that oil really but they are making a big mess. Same coming soon as the mississipi declines and all the cities need that water; it will come from the great lakes, then the finger lakes, etc.

 

Mans inhospitality to earth will not allow those lakes to stand for more than 50-100 more years, no matter what laws are in place now.

 

Sorry. Really.

 

BS. Lake Michigan is actually on a rebound. The real harm is Lake Ontario, where they are not letting it run its course like the other lakes... Just think of the invasive species of plants that took over for a while, now in other lakes outside of Ontario they are being choked out by the rising water.

 

Chicago is the worst culprit in exploiting it... They charge an arm and a leg the more communites you get further down the line. I live just outside of lake water and love it... My town gets the water from wells in town (supposedly from a depth that can sustain the community for 100's of years... My bill is only about 70 bucks a quater with sewer... The only bad thing is that the water is hard... So I use a softener...

 

Now in Chicago... If you have an old residence, one doesn't even have a water meter... They judge by estimate. Supposedly if you rehab the residence then you must get a meter.

[trolls_r_us]

I feel like I've read this discussion somewhere before.

 

Buffalo was a steel, railroad, shipping, automobile and manufacturing town. With those 5 strikes against us we shouldn't even exist anymore. Yet 1.2 million people live in this metro area. I had a long response typed up but experience has taught me that it is pointless to try and highlight the positive things that are going on in Buffalo in a thread like this.

 

I can just go by my experience. In the past few weeks I have hiked the Niagara gorge trail (beautiful), visited the gardens in Delaware Park, did a free tour of the Art Gallery on Friday, went over to a friend's house for a nice Rock Band party (we are all in our 20's AND we're not college students so we don't even exist here!), took my fiance to see Letchworth, went camping in the Southern Tier for a week, walked through the botanical gardens, went to a couple of free concerts, rode my bike along the miles of nice bike trails almost daily, hiked in Sprague Brook and Chestnut Ridge, and I plan on visiting Bills training camp and spending the fall attending Bills and Sabres games, hiking, fishing, biking, hanging out with friends, and all sorts of other fun things that come up. I haven't even mentioned the festivals this summer.

 

It boggles my mind that anyone could be bored living here. I guess if your only idea of a good time is partying in a 23 story luxury condo with a group of shallow millionaires flashing all their wealth then you might have a tough time.

[Griswold]

Nothing to see here w/this article. Please move along.

 

The article is quoting population specs from inside city limits... not greater metro areas.

 

Bflo is 270K

 

Erie County is more like 920K (incl the Bflo 270K).

[bufferman]

I sometimes do a double take when I read these posts. Buffalo is in the middle of the fifth largest population base in North America The Buffalo Bills are part of Buffalo, a natural resource if you will. For the purpose of football, Buffalo is a primary marketplace and Toronto is the secondary marketplace. Toronto wants to acquire the Bills "lock stock and barrel". They will make every effort to bring the team north and will manipulate all of the census data to their advantage. The truth is that it is primarily immigrants who have absolutely no interest in North American football. Those who want to bring the team ito Toronto look at Buffalo and Buffalonians like there a joke. Years ago when the Blue Jays sold out every game the parking lots were filled with NY State plates. The Blue Jays now have one of the lowest attendance figures in the league. Toronto is all for and about Toronto. They do not care about any support that may have come from NYS. Part of the problem is that Buffalo and its' media market continuously puts itself in a box which sees itself as a dying urban jurisdiction. They use this to their advantage and will seize upon this mentality when "push comes to shove". So quit your whining and your self perpetuated inferiority complex. You are and always will be a football town like very few on the planet. Stand up and be heard. Do whatever needs to be done but stop putting yourself down.

[ganesh]

Buffalo-Rochester-Syracuse: The Buffalo Bills main US fan base. I wonder how Toronto, CN is doing!?!

 

America's Fastest Dying Cities

 

1. Flint, MI

2. Cleveland, OH

3. BUFFALO, NY

4. Pittsburgh, PA

5. Dyaton, OH

6. Hialeah, FL

7. Toledo, OH

8. ROCHESTER, NY

9. SYRACUSE, NY

10. Jackson, MS

 

http://realestate.aol.com/pictures/finance/dying-cities?pg=1

 

Pittsburgh is not a dying city....I live here and know for sure that house prices in and around here have actually gone up. Medical insurance companies and giants such as Heinz, UPMC, etc will keep its growth. It may not be the best place for "High Tech" IT opportunities, but people do other stuff too.

[Gordio]

I believe the Lake Erie water is actually fairly clean, isn't it?

 

Back in the heyday of Bethlehem Steel, Republic Steel, Hooker Chemicals, General Mills, or whomever - crap was dumped in the great lakes in ungodly amounts, with profit, rather than pollution foremost on the minds of the offending companies.

 

On the wave of the environmental movement of the late 60s and 70s, didn't a slew of new EPA regulation lead to drasictally cleaner great lakes? Anyone know? How clean are the lakes now? I know there's been some algae problems attributed to mussels, or something like that.

 

When I recently flew above the Lake Erie shoreline, upon descent into Buffalo, I was awestruck by the magnitude and beauty of the lake as the sun reflected off of the water and power boats and sailboats floated below me. Funny how many facets of the area we take for granted growing up there, and never realized, until being transplanted elsewhere, how truly beautiful the landscape is in WNY.

 

Speaking of lakes and fresh water....

My water bill last month was $118 (including sewer). In Buffalo, I believe you still only get a bill like every 3 months. Since the fee is so low, it wouldn't be unusual to pay around $50 for the quarter for water. We have lower taxes here, but when you start adding it all up, I'm not sure we're really any better off, particularly when you consider all the amenities (bike paths, numerous parks, Mighty Taco, etc) available to many WNYers.

 

 

The lake is actually almost too clean now & that does create the Algae problem.

 

Your right about the water expenses. I pay about $45 every 3 months for water.

[bufferman]

Pittsburgh is not a dying city....I live here and know for sure that house prices in and around here have actually gone up. Medical insurance companies and giants such as Heinz, UPMC, etc will keep its growth. It may not be the best place for "High Tech" IT opportunities, but people do other stuff too.

The study is purely emperical and based upon people leaving the city of Pittsburgh. It is a statistical urban study of population. I will say it again, there are very few cities in the world that have the logistical population at its disposal for trade, commerce and tourism that Buffalo has. The problem is, that it can't count the millions of people across the border and therefore this cosistently paints a negative picture instead of a true picture.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Took my son to Detroit Auto Show this winter. That is the strangest town I have ever been to. Saturday Morning. Noon. Downtown. No one around. Street level shops vacant. Whole buildings--right downtown, 20 stories---abandoned. Stayed at the GM tower hotel. Beautiful view of the city. No cars on the street on Saturday night. There was this massive old hotel seen from the highway to and from the airprot on the edge of town---just an empty hulking structure. No windows intact.

 

It was very strange.

 

 

 

 

I live on the Lake Ontario. Smells fine and a beautiful sunset (on the water) shines into every room in my house every nite.

 

Awesome.

 

Sounds like Buffalo. I once drove through town, north to south on a beautiful early September Saturday afternoon, like 1 or so. made it all the way through town in 15 minutes. Unbelievable. Can't even do that here in the Lehigh Valley.

[ricojes]

America's Ten Fastest Dying Cities! Buffalo...

I would consider it more of a slow painful death...

[ExiledInIllinois]

The lake is actually almost too clean now & that does create the Algae problem.

 

Your right about the water expenses. I pay about $45 every 3 months for water.

 

Primarily due to the fact that Lake Erie's residence time is a whopping 5 or so years! Quite a great natural attribute to have when you consider the other lakes like Superior and Michigan you are talking 100-200 years! Amazing that Ontario's is 6 years even after the Seaway was built... Without looking at any data, I think the SeaWay may have helped with flushing! Yet the SeaWay has been shown to keep Lake Ontario's elevations pretty static... Which in regard to the Great Lakes' ecosystem (invasive species) can hurt.

 

Of course this is all in my non-professional opinion.