John from Riverside Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 When you have a GM telling a agent that his player is on the verge of losing his chance at a starting spot over something that should be able to be worked out...the agent is doing him any favors..... I gotta say....this has the feeling to me of the agent trying to make a name for himself with upcoming clients then it does about looking out for Whitner.... Whitner needs to can this fool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 Whitner needs to can this fool 732258[/snapback] That's probably what Marv would tell Donte... if he had a working telephone number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayFinkle Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 This guy should be kissing Marv's ass for making his client a top 10 pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thailog80 Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 Ko Simpson loves DW holding out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 When you have a GM telling a agent that his player is on the verge of losing his chance at a starting spot over something that should be able to be worked out...the agent is doing him any favors..... I gotta say....this has the feeling to me of the agent trying to make a name for himself with upcoming clients then it does about looking out for Whitner.... Whitner needs to can this fool 732258[/snapback] Not knowing what the offer is nor what it is Whitner wants, I can't affix blame on the player, the agent or the GM. The offer might not be a fair one for all we know and if that were the case, that agent would be doing his client a disservice to tell him to sign anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 Not knowing what the offer is nor what it is Whitner wants, I can't affix blame on the player, the agent or the GM. The offer might not be a fair one for all we know and if that were the case, that agent would be doing his client a disservice to tell him to sign anyway. 732275[/snapback] According to an article in another thread, Marv said the offer is right in the middle of Huff's and Sims'. Doesn't really sound like much his agent has to argue with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted July 31, 2006 Author Share Posted July 31, 2006 Not knowing what the offer is nor what it is Whitner wants, I can't affix blame on the player, the agent or the GM. The offer might not be a fair one for all we know and if that were the case, that agent would be doing his client a disservice to tell him to sign anyway. 732275[/snapback] I dont know why Levy would have any reason to lie (I give Marv more credit then that) because he said that the offer was right in the middle of what the guy before him and after him got..... Sounds fair to me...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Baumer Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 I love the fact that Marv is not taking crap from anyone on this team. VERY VERY REFRESHING!!!!!!!!!!! It looks like this team is going to be a good bunch of guys who are willing to step into any situation asked of them. Too bad Whitner..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 When you have a GM telling a agent that his player is on the verge of losing his chance at a starting spot over something that should be able to be worked out...the agent is doing him any favors..... I gotta say....this has the feeling to me of the agent trying to make a name for himself with upcoming clients then it does about looking out for Whitner.... Whitner needs to can this fool 732258[/snapback] I love these types of posts. You know virtually nothing of the negotiations or of the contracts the players sign other than what gets printed in the paper, yet you're absolutely certain that it's the agent's fault and Whitner should can him. I want Whitner in camp too but I’m not going to take sides as I don’t have an f’in clue what’s going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted July 31, 2006 Author Share Posted July 31, 2006 I love these types of posts. You know virtually nothing of the negotiations or of the contracts the players sign other than what gets printed in the paper, yet you're absolutely certain that it's the agent's fault and Whitner should can him. I want Whitner in camp too but I’m not going to take sides as I don’t have an f’in clue what’s going on. 732297[/snapback] Bottom line....he should be in camp. Regardless of who is holding it up. I as a fan certainly dont want Bowen starting the season..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurlyBurly51 Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 Ko Simpson loves DW holding out. 732267[/snapback] Why? He'll be backing up Troy no matter what, maybe even Baker as well. I haven't heard any possible switch to SS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 I dont know why Levy would have any reason to lie (I give Marv more credit then that) because he said that the offer was right in the middle of what the guy before him and after him got..... Sounds fair to me...... 732281[/snapback] There is a lot more to a contract than just the amount. How much is guaranteed? Are there incentives and if so, what are they? If there is going to be a voidable year, under what terms? "The offer was right in the middle..." doesn't tell us much. I don't think his agent would be having him miss this much camp if there wasn't something significant missing from the contract. Guys don't hold out for nothing. There clearly is a problem that we aren't being told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saudi Arabia Rob Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 There is a lot more to a contract than just the amount. How much is guaranteed? Are there incentives and if so, what are they? If there is going to be a voidable year, under what terms? "The offer was right in the middle..." doesn't tell us much. I don't think his agent would be having him miss this much camp if there wasn't something significant missing from the contract. Guys don't hold out for nothing. There clearly is a problem that we aren't being told. 732349[/snapback] Maybe he's just emulating Nate Clements another Ohio alumnist...he's the best at the position and deserves the big contract! Too bad rookies are "slotted," however. I do agree, it would seem something significant is missing from the contract, if not, his agent is doing him a disservice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 That 6th year is very significant, if that is what the Bills are holding out for. The player is in his prime. If he hasn't lived up to expectations, the team will cut him and he gets nothing but is free to go elsewhere. If he DOES however, and surely every single one of these guys and their agents believe 100% that they will be better than advertised, the team has all the leverage. And it could cost the player millions. So it is not just a throwaway year. Especially, IIRC, that Huff and Sims both signed 5 year deals sandwiched around him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 Clearly Marv is negotiating through the press. You can go ahead and assume fault lies with the agent, but Marv is doing exactly the opposite with Whitner: playing mind games with him, pressuring him based on his falling behind, trying to make him lose his sense of security, etc. Why do you think the agent told him to can the 4 phone numbers? So Marv and Dick can't call him up and fill him full of fear and self-doubt. Without any info, you have no idea who is being the stinkers. Of course, the natural tendency is to believe Marv is being eminently fair and it is just that no good snake in the grass agent that is holding things up, looking out for himself. But it can just easily be Marv and the Bills playing a little hard ball, and then using the press to their advantage. The thing about any tough negotation is both sides think they are right, fair and reasonable. One could just as easily say, come on Marv, what's a few hundred thousand more, or an option year to get your #1 into camp! All Marv said about the deal is that it's somewhere in between, he didn't say it was heavily skewed toward the top rather than the bottom. And saying that it's somewhere in the middle is muddying the water just a bit. We need to just keep our panties unbunched for a few more days until both sides give a little to get it done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 Clearly Marv is negotiating through the press. You can go ahead and assume fault lies with the agent, but Marv is doing exactly the opposite with Whitner: playing mind games with him, pressuring him based on his falling behind, trying to make him lose his sense of security, etc. Why do you think the agent told him to can the 4 phone numbers? So Marv and Dick can't call him up and fill him full of fear and self-doubt. Without any info, you have no idea who is being the stinkers. Of course, the natural tendency is to believe Marv is being eminently fair and it is just that no good snake in the grass agent that is holding things up, looking out for himself. But it can just easily be Marv and the Bills playing a little hard ball, and then using the press to their advantage. The thing about any tough negotation is both sides think they are right, fair and reasonable. One could just as easily say, come on Marv, what's a few hundred thousand more, or an option year to get your #1 into camp! All Marv said about the deal is that it's somewhere in between, he didn't say it was heavily skewed toward the top rather than the bottom. And saying that it's somewhere in the middle is muddying the water just a bit. We need to just keep our panties unbunched for a few more days until both sides give a little to get it done. 732399[/snapback] Except that Marv says he doesn't even concern himself with the negotiations and the salary cap. Overdorf does it all. I'm sure Marv is kept abreast of virtually everything said, but I really do believe this is all Overdorf who is doing what he believes is best, in constant conference with Ralph and Marv. Although, yes, clearly Marv is negotiating through the press as part of his GM job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 This is gonna sound strange but how do we know it's not the Bills negotiator that is causing the problem? From many of the training camp reports around here it seems that Bowen is at least capable. How do we know that, as each day passes by, the Bills aren't saying "Hey, look at Bowen today, your guy isn't as important as you say"? The more days Bowen does well, the more difficult DW's bargaining position becomes. If Bowen keeps this up, time becomes DW's enemy. Or, I could be full of crap. I'm bettin on the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 If you draft a guy that high, you have to think the world of what he can do to help this team win. The job of the personnel people is get the best palyers they can lay their mitts on and jam them into a Bills uniform. I have no love lost for sports agents and I'm sure Whitner's is a piece of work but you know, that is the way of it in the modern NFL. Its why Ralph pays the personnel people what he pays them, to find a way through all the greed, self interest and contractual sideshows to get these guys in the locker room. Right now our top pick is playing video games and ordering out. Lets get this guy in camp. We don't know diddly about what is going on behind the curtain so lets not rush to label somebody as the villian...yet. Save something to post about for next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrite Gal Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 If what is going on here is that Whitner wants an amount of money that is anything different that being about equidistant from Huff taken just before him and Sims taken after him its Whitner's fault. If on the other hand the dispute is about the Bills wanting a contract for 6 years when Huff and Sims both signed for 5 years, the fault is on the Bills. If there is general agreement on the amount and on the time but debate between the two sides about the details (timing of bonuses etc, though the amounts are clear) then the fault is on both. Unless posters have some actual knowledge of what items are in dispute here their conclusions about who is at fault are pretty worthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sen. John Blutarsky Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 I love these types of posts. You know virtually nothing of the negotiations or of the contracts the players sign other than what gets printed in the paper, yet you're absolutely certain that it's the agent's fault and Whitner should can him. I want Whitner in camp too but I’m not going to take sides as I don’t have an f’in clue what’s going on. 732297[/snapback] right, but the way these things work is your money is slotted. #7 and #9 have signed, there really isn't that much to talk about anymore except length of the deal and since the BIlls can only ask for 6 years and #7 and #9 have gotten 5 it doesn't really seem like there's a big void to cross here. If the agent isn't making contact, or avoiding contact he's the one screwing it up. It has to be weird for Levy to come out and say in a PC that they have no working numbers to contact the player. The Bills really can't be at fault, they know the slotting as well as everyone else, it usually a stupid agent who thinks he can get more bank for the player in the form of a bonus, little does the player know that the agent's cut comes right off the top of any signing bonus so it's in the AGENTS interest to get as much cash up front as possible whether it's good for the player or not. Anyone who thkns agents really work for their client is crazy, agents work for themselves in the guise of helping the players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 right, but the way these things work is your money is slotted. #7 and #9 have signed, there really isn't that much to talk about anymore except length of the deal and since the BIlls can only ask for 6 years and #7 and #9 have gotten 5 it doesn't really seem like there's a big void to cross here. If the agent isn't making contact, or avoiding contact he's the one screwing it up. It has to be weird for Levy to come out and say in a PC that they have no working numbers to contact the player. The Bills really can't be at fault, they know the slotting as well as everyone else, it usually a stupid agent who thinks he can get more bank for the player in the form of a bonus, little does the player know that the agent's cut comes right off the top of any signing bonus so it's in the AGENTS interest to get as much cash up front as possible whether it's good for the player or not. Anyone who thkns agents really work for their client is crazy, agents work for themselves in the guise of helping the players. 732429[/snapback] Huff signed for 5 years, 22.5 million, 15 guaranteed, I don't think the numbers for Sims have been disclosed or leaked yet, just that it was a 5 year deal. The next contract we know of guys after Whitner is Cutler, a QB who got 48 million for 6 years then after him you have Ngata who got 11.9 for 5 years. Then Wimbley for 6 years and 23.7 million. You tell me, with numbers all over the place like that, where is this no-brainer slot that Whitner falls in to? Damned if I know. Maybe the uncertainty is staring us in the face and that is why they haven't been able to reach an agreement. Does he get 6 years like Cutler and Wimbley or 5 like Ngata and Huff? Do we ingore Cutler because he is a QB? If you do, then 22 million would "fall between" Huff and Ngata but so would 12 million. That leaves 10 million bucks to argue over within the "slot". This is a complicated negotiation, it isn't just an exercise in mathematics. It is why these agents get paid the big bucks, in this case to get Donte a lot closer to Huff's 22.5 million than to Ngata's 11.9 mil. Most agents get about 4%, on that 15 mil guaranteed to Huff, that is a fee of $880,000. Of course, that is just off his NFL contract, it doesn't include the endorsement deals, appearance fees, etc., etc. Players don't pay them that kind of cash for them to sit around and just to wait for their guy to get "slotted". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbyte Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Maybe the problem is that they did not save enough money for a player drafted #8. Each team is allocated only so much for signing rookies. Plus Marv and the Bills really have no leverage. Saying that Donte is fowling up his chance to start is crazy. If he does not start ,then Marv and the Bills will look stupid for drafting Donte #8. No one knows what the real facts are, since we do not know what the Contract each side has presented to each other. Marv saying it is fair, but to who? The Bills or Donte? Everyone knows that Donte will lose if he goes back to the draft, but the Bills will lose also since they would of wasted a top 10 pick, which they would not get back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarthur31 Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 I love these types of posts. You know virtually nothing of the negotiations or of the contracts the players sign other than what gets printed in the paper, yet you're absolutely certain that it's the agent's fault and Whitner should can him. I want Whitner in camp too but I’m not going to take sides as I don’t have an f’in clue what’s going on. 732297[/snapback] This contract shouldn't matter to Donte if he believes he's better than "the experts" have proclaimed so far. The really big money is his first free agent contract (or second if he's that good and lucky to get another). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrite Gal Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 This contract shouldn't matter to Donte if he believes he's better than "the experts" have proclaimed so far. The really big money is his first free agent contract (or second if he's that good and lucky to get another). 732524[/snapback] While the really huge big contract is the definitely irst FA contract, the first regular contract is merely huge big not really huge big. I do not think it is logical to be so dismissive about negotiations over 10s or 100s of thousands of dollars. Some could care less because they never had a dime so any contract is big $. Some could care less because they grew up wealthy and they know they will be taken vare of evem if they did not have football talent. Some are penny pinchers because growing up poor made them want every dime they can make. Some are penny pinchers because they had tons of money but learned the way you earn dollars is to keep track of the pennies. Some general rule applies but you can not know which one until you know the person. This contract any way you cut it is for more money than Whitner ever signed for in his life. For some players the game is more important than $100,000 this way or that way. However, I find it difficult to find fault with someone who judges a $100K. or $500K or whatever the difference is they are negotiating over to be a chunk of change worth doing the due diligence of being feisty about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 This contract shouldn't matter to Donte if he believes he's better than "the experts" have proclaimed so far. The really big money is his first free agent contract (or second if he's that good and lucky to get another). 732524[/snapback] Not when you're drafted in the top 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 This contract shouldn't matter to Donte if he believes he's better than "the experts" have proclaimed so far. The really big money is his first free agent contract (or second if he's that good and lucky to get another). 732524[/snapback] Of course it matters, we're talking millions of dollars here. Though you are right the really big money is with the next contract...which is why Whitner would want a 5 year deal instead of a 6. That one year could cost Whitner loads of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TC in St. Louis Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Marv saying that Whitner's chances of starting are in jeopardy for missing a few days of camp....that's really a moot point to Whitner, in my opinion. He is not going to leave any money on the table. The difference of "a few hundred thousand" would feed my family for the next 20 years. It's all about the benjamins. I think he'll be in by Wednesday. Starting by 3rd preseason game, if he's as good as they say he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 By all accounts Marv and the Bills have been generous with the FA contracts (some say too generous); they've also been fair with all the draft picks. Why would they suddenly decide to go cheap and screw their top pick? It doesn't make sense to me. For that reason, I'd have to say the hold out is more the blame of the agent/Whitner than the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generaLee83 Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 I love these types of posts. You know virtually nothing of the negotiations or of the contracts the players sign other than what gets printed in the paper, yet you're absolutely certain that it's the agent's fault and Whitner should can him. I want Whitner in camp too but I’m not going to take sides as I don’t have an f’in clue what’s going on. 732297[/snapback] Right on MDH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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