Bills are just 4 games away from being the most patient fanbase in the Super Bowl era.

[bills_fan]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

How many of those fired a coach who at the time was top 15 all time win percentage?

 

That is the point. There really is no equivalent for where the Bills are at.

 

 

There is one "sort-of" equivalent.  Tampa.  When they fired Dungy and hired Chucky.  And Chucky took them to win the SB.  But that Tampa team rode an all time great defense.  Absent adding a Justin Jefferson or CeeDee Lamb, we don't have an all time great offense to ride.

[hondo in seattle]

1 hour ago, Lionel Hutz said:

And it will never change because winning the division and making the playoffs is good enough for the Pegulas. 

 

I'm not sure how any of us know what's good enough for the Pegulas, unless you happen to know them personally.

Since I don't, I can only guess.  I think they want to win a Lombardi with all their hearts.  But I think their attitude is that getting to the playoffs - as far as the AFCC game - shows that the team is close.  So instead of blowing the organization up, they look to get better the following year with the same main leaders in place.  A small staff change, a better draft, a good FA acquisition, etc. could conceivably put this team over the top.     

[Chaos]

17 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Winning is the name of the game.

The rub is a disagreement on what "winning" is.   Lets say Reid retires after this season.  The expectation for the next coach will be that winning means winning super bowls, as long as Mahomes is QB.  Many Bills fans, who don't post on fan forums think the bar for "winning" with Josh Allen on the team is at least an appearance in the Super Bowl.  If you look at the chart of the top 10, all but one of those combos won more than they lost.  None are really remembered as an era of great success. 

[Mikie2times]

The combination of Allen and the AFC east being atrocious has allowed Beane and McD to largely run it back for many years, which shockingly, has largely led to identical outcomes.  Our complacency is rarely seen in a non Super Bowl winners. But since we win and win a lot, the perception is we are close and larger changes aren’t needed. 
 

It’s all just flat out sad to me. Considering what could have been or what could be. McD will not consider any mass changes to his defense or his coordinator selection. Both are likely to be inexperienced guys who will fall in line.
 

Just like Beane, his earlier decisions were just better. You certainly don’t have to love Frazier or Dabs, they weren’t perfect by any stretch, but they were both very experienced guys. They didn’t fall in line all the time.
 

He’s not hiring A coordinators. It will never happen. Those guys don’t want to work for people where they don’t have full control. So from a scheme standpoint Sean has just boxed us in. Other coaches just don’t give a F. Best man for the job. Not Sean. You could argue it’s unproven that either of our coordinators are long term options in the league. Dorsey didn’t end up being such. Brady had Allen and is struggling of late. Babich just isn’t the guy. Almost no experience. Good luck facing Andy Reid. My god….
 

Then Beane refusing to invest more assets at WR. Awful planning at LB and DB. Over committing to average assets. Are Bernard and Groot guys we want taking top 10 caps the next few years? I don’t want that but here we are. 
 

But again, a great QB against a division of not great QB’s are going to give you a really high floor. Which isn’t the only things that allowed this run to happen, and the first build was fairly good. This one just hasn’t been.  This team has basically been in a perfect cocktail of circumstances that allow for what is happening. For Beane and McD to have faults shielded and in many ways celebrated as master architects. It is the greatest fraud in Bills history. These guys are very competent professionals, but they fall short in schematics and player evaluation at a level where it is unlikely we will go any further. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Mikie2times

[Chaos]

Just now, hondo in seattle said:

 

I'm not sure how any of us know what's good enough for the Pegulas, unless you happen to know them personally.

Since I don't, I can only guess.  I think they want to win a Lombardi with all their hearts.  But I think their attitude is that getting to the playoffs - as far as the AFCC game - shows that the team is close.  So instead of blowing the organization up, they look to get better the following year with the same main leaders in place.  A small staff change, a better draft, a good FA acquisition, etc. could conceivably put this team over the top.     

Its a false choice to say changing coaches is "Blowing it up" or retaining the head coach..  There have been 10 different coaches who made it to the Super Bowl in their first or second season.  The change in head coach seem to be the "change" needed in those cases.  

1 minute ago, Mikie2times said:

But again, a great QB against a division of not great QB’s are going to give you a really high floor

This era may have ended with the arrival of the Vrabel/Maye duo.  Early returns as a Bills fan are not promising.  But they are early.   

[Mikie2times]

3 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Its a false choice to say changing coaches is "Blowing it up" or retaining the head coach..  There have been 10 different coaches who made it to the Super Bowl in their first or second season.  The change in head coach seem to be the "change" needed in those cases.  

This era may have ended with the arrival of the Vrabel/Maye duo.  Early returns as a Bills fan are not promising.  But they are early.   

And I would say in a messed up way it could be the best thing for this franchise. Iron sharpens iron. Maybe getting knocked out of first will send a clear message to Beane that we aren’t a player away right now. 

[Boatdrinks]

2 minutes ago, Chaos said:

The rub is a disagreement on what "winning" is.   Lets say Reid retires after this season.  The expectation for the next coach will be that winning means winning super bowls, as long as Mahomes is QB.  Many Bills fans, who don't post on fan forums think the bar for "winning" with Josh Allen on the team is at least an appearance in the Super Bowl.  If you look at the chart of the top 10, all but one of those combos won more than they lost.  None are really remembered as an era of great success. 

Sure, and the Hunt family will probably have a different definition than the Pegulas. I don’t disagree at all. Maybe the Pegulas definition is winning championships, but they feel staying the course is best. I’m not sure. That’s how it appears. Their opinion or definition along with maybe a few other key advisors is the only one that matters. I can see the argument for both, but I’m starting to think a major overhaul is necessary as the current model is looking shaky and hasn’t managed to stop Reid and Mahomes when it mattered most. 

[BlazinBill]

Sweet- yet another NFL record JA17 can break!

[strive_for_five_guy]

Finally, we’ve almost made it.  Been waiting very patiently to break this record.

[NewEra]

3 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 Disagree tremendously. 
 

plug in any top 30 coach and really how far backwards do you go? Minimally at most 

 

 

Something no one has any clue about whether or not they think they do….. they don’t 

[Paup 1995MVP]

3 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 Disagree tremendously. 
 

plug in any top 30 coach and really how far backwards do you go? Minimally at most 

 

 

I agree.  What has McDermott done to help Josh's career?  Do the two ever even talk?  McDermott is not an offensive guru.  He doesn't call offensive plays.  And I doubt gives instruction to Josh.  

 

I think with a fresh reset of a new coaching staff and GM, Josh and the entire team will rejuvenated, and play with much more reckless abandon.  I personally think McDermott has sucked the life and the joy out of the organization.

[NoSaint]

48 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Something no one has any clue about whether or not they think they do….. they don’t 

plug in… I don’t know…. John harbaugh, tomlin, stefanski, vrabel, coen, Ben Johnson… 

 

do we think any of them cause the team to fall off a cliff? 
 

we aren’t going 20 years sans playoffs cycling through those guys with Josh at the helm. 

[Zerovoltz]

My unwanted 2 cents.

 

1.  Some here mention the Broncos firing Fox and brining in Kubiak who won the SB his first year.  Some mention Chucky replacing Dungy and winning his first year.

....the 2015 Broncos were a defense that doesn't get the same pub as that Buccs D or the Ravens great D...but it should....Go look at the box score...they drug the corpse of Peyton Manning to a SB Win.  

 

In Dungy's case, his starting QB was Sean King...and he almost made that work.  Chucky, by coincidence or design...brought in a better QB in Brad Johnson who was better than king and he won with a combo of good O and GREAT D.  Dungy would go on to win the SB himself once he had a great QB in Manning.  I don't really think either of these two situations apply to the Bills.

 

2.  I've said in another thread somewhere around here that McD is a fine coach...and he really deserves a TON OF CREDIT for overseeing the development of Josh Allen.  Allen was the ultimate project.  Think of how many teams have tried and failed on thise same sore of gamble.  They tend to run out of patience way too quickly.  The Bills and McD had a plan to develope Allen...they followed it patiently and it's paid off.  McD and Beane have had ample to time to get all the way over the hump.  Sometimes you've got the right people in place to take you from A to B or even C...but it becomes clear to get from C to D....you need different people, with different ideas and skill sets.

 

Dan Reeves was a good coach who brought John Elway along to the point where they could get deep into the playoffs but couldn't win big.  Nothing against Reeves..he was a good coach...but the wrong guy to get a star QB to the next level.  Reeves proved his coaching prowess by taking the Falcons and a mediocre journeyman QB to the SB...and lost to the Broncos.  The Broncos hired Mike Shanahan...who hadn't done much as a HC with Raiders, but was known to have a good offensive mind....and they eventually won back to back.

 

Firing McD and finding....as some have suggested....a HC with an offensive mind.....may well be what the Bills need.

 

3.  It is worth noting at this point, McBeane has not drafted or FA'd well enough.  Not trying to be a dick here, but another reason KC keeps getting over the hump is due in part to the fact KC (NOT AT ALL PERFECT..plenty of errors) has drafted and FA'd at a good clip to keep things in good enough order to compete.

 

Wanting to move on and put some different folks in at GM and HC to see if a better result can be achieved is very rational, and reasonable....and it doesn't mean the guys who took the Bills from the toilet to (almost) the top are bad.....it's just time for a change.

[MPL]

3 hours ago, 90sBills said:

4 hours ago, Chaos said:

I think Madden/Stabler did in the 70's

 

I believe they got it done in their 4th year together. 

This is correct. Stabler was the backup QB from 70-72. He made 2 spot starts during those 3 seasons. Stabler becomes the starting QB in 73 and the Raiders win the Super Bowl in 76. It's Madden's 8th year as coach, but only his 4th with Stabler as the starting QB. 

History suggests that if we're keeping McDermott, maybe we should give Mitch a shot? 🤮🤮🤮

There's a couple of other deceiving instances: Lombardi and Starr and Stram and Dawson. In both cases, those Coach/QB combos had been together for more than 5 years before appearing in a Super Bowl. But that's only because the Super Bowl didn't exist when their careers began. And when you dive deeper, you'll find that Lombardi and Starr won their first NFL Championship in their 2nd year together, and that Stram and Dawson won the AFL Championship in Dawson's rookie year. So, both combos reach the highest peak available to them at the time. 

But otherwise, it's pretty cut and dry. You're head coach and starting QB combo has a 5-year window. 

[billsfan714]

Well at the end of the year and if they haven't reached the SB, I guess the question to ask is has any coach/qb combo who have been together 140 games got to their first superbowl together after that?   If the answer is no, then I think the decision is easy.   How about a championship pre-superbowl has it ever be done after that many games?  I dont know.

Edited 1 minute ago by billsfan714