A note on the base nickel vs the 4/3

[MasterStrategist]

2 hours ago, Simon said:

 

The Bills have spent about a third of every game so far running in a 4/3 with Williams or Shaq Thompson as the other 'backer.

That is a significant increase in how much they've used 3 LBs in the past.

I know that this has been partly a result of matchups and injuries (Taron), but I'm not sure that's the entire reason.

Is this trend going to continue going forward? And if so, why?

I think alot is due to Tarons health - coupled with playing Ravens then Jets and their heavy personell/rungame.

 

Taron is better than any 3rd LB on our roster

[Simon]

8 minutes ago, 17islongenough said:

I saw Cam Lewis in there yesterday.  We're they running a defense with 1 LB?

 

Yeah, when Lewis comes on when they go into a dime they'll often only leave Bernard on the field at LB.

[TheBeaneBandit]

2 hours ago, Simon said:

 

The Bills have spent about a third of every game so far running in a 4/3 with Williams or Shaq Thompson as the other 'backer.

That is a significant increase in how much they've used 3 LBs in the past.

I know that this has been partly a result of matchups and injuries (Taron), but I'm not sure that's the entire reason.

Is this trend going to continue going forward? And if so, why?

I'll go with lack of a true "effective" 1 tech. Daquan is doing his best at his age and Walker while flashing isn't consistent because obviously he's a rookie in technique and still must build a more powerful base. That's probably the #1 reason although I'm sure there are layers lol

[Simon]

3 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

I think alot is due to Tarons health - coupled with playing Ravens then Jets and their heavy personell/rungame.

 

Taron is better than any 3rd LB on our roster

 

I agree that was a factor in the first two weeks, but last night with a healthy Taron against a fast team against whom they have run almost 100% nickel over the last couple years, they suddenly ran a 4-3 for about a third of the game again. 🤷‍♂️

[RunTheBall]

I think it’s an acknowledgement that the defense we’ve had for the last few years isn’t getting it done in the playoffs. We are seeing more 4-3, more 5 man fronts, more DE’s rushing over guards. We will be playing a lot more man coverage once Hairston gets up to speed. This defense is going to look significantly different once the guys who are injured/suspended come back into the fold. I think we are seeing them experiment with multiple looks/fronts so we aren’t as predictable as we have been.

 

[chris heff]

19 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

I agree that was a factor in the first two weeks, but last night with a healthy Taron against a fast team against whom they have run almost 100% nickel over the last couple years, they suddenly ran a 4-3 for about a third of the game again. 🤷‍♂️

I guess the question is how healthy is Taron? Probably not 100%. And then Cam is his backup, how healthy is he? 

[EmotionallyUnstable]

Even Solomon got a snap at LB yesterday. Babich out here just drawing up scheeeeeet

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, WotAGuy said:

When the d-line isn’t doing the job, beef up the backer line. Run game is making a resurgence in the league. I’m just spitballing here. 

Exactly,  it's not like our front 4 are getting home.   

[SoonerBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

 

Agreed in regards to protecting Taron, since he won't protect himself (did you see him trying to pick up another concussion last night with about 10 seconds left in a two score game) and agreed about the Ravens and Jets. But I do not agree at all about the Dolphins.

That is one of the fastest offenses in the league and over the last two years the Bills have played virtually zero 4-3 against them; they've run a base nickel (or a dime) against them at a rate of nearly 100% of their defensive snaps.

Now, even with a healthy Taron Johnson and an injured Milano, they're suddenly playing a full third of a game in a 4-3 they haven't shown them at all?

Something different is going on here and I'm curious what it is.

McDermott said in the offseason changes needed to be made.  He went with Bigger DT's.  

 

 

[Simon]

5 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Even Solomon got a snap at LB yesterday. Babich out here just drawing up scheeeeeet

 

They've also been kicking him inside at DT on some passing downs 

[JerseyBills]

Shaq is a low key great acquisition,  familiar with McDermott,  was elite with him , he probably lost a step but it's a luxury to have him in this defense for a low price 

We have depth damn near everywhere,  especially when Max, Hoecht and Ogunjobi get back ! 

SB caliber for sure

[Simon]

31 minutes ago, RunTheBall said:

I think it’s an acknowledgement that the defense we’ve had for the last few years isn’t getting it done in the playoffs. We are seeing more 4-3, more 5 man fronts, more DE’s rushing over guards. We will be playing a lot more man coverage once Hairston gets up to speed. This defense is going to look significantly different once the guys who are injured/suspended come back into the fold. I think we are seeing them experiment with multiple looks/fronts so we aren’t as predictable as we have been.

 

 

Maybe it's just hope messing with my head, but this is pretty much what I am leaning toward as well.

[boyst]

Good thoughts and all so far.

I also think it's that we trust Thompson, Bernard, and to an extent Williams.

 

Thompson is a very smart player. He is the guy who took AJ Kleins job in Carolina, to those who didn't know.

 

It was Thomas Davis, Luke Keuchly, and AJ Klein who was replaced by Thompson. Thompson struggled early but learned a lot from Davis, Keuchly, Klein. 

[Simon]

2 minutes ago, boyst said:

Good thoughts and all so far.

I also think it's that we trust Thompson, Bernard, and to an extent Williams.

 

Thompson is a very smart player. He is the guy who took AJ Kleins job in Carolina, to those who didn't know.

 

It was Thomas Davis, Luke Keuchly, and AJ Klein who was replaced by Thompson. Thompson struggled early but learned a lot from Davis, Keuchly, Klein. 

 

I didn't realize that's how he fit in there.

I bet Sam Mills enjoyed looking down on that corps.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

29 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

They've also been kicking him inside at DT on some passing downs 

Zion Logue

Joey Bosa

Javon Solomon

 

What does this list have in common? Aside from being defensive lineman, they all also dropped into zone coverage yesterday. 
 

I’m still working through this film but between some bizarre play calling and guys just not making plays, it is a tough watch on D sometimes. 
 

My favorite so far is an achane run which was an attempt at power. Daquon Jones complete beats his guy across from him off the ball, and blows up the pulling guard who was en route to kick out Rousseau. That left both 50 and Shaq unblocked on the edge and yet they somehow both get beat to the outside when it bounces for a cool 10+ yard gain. 

 

 

[blizzardman]

Miami was running some 4 D tackle with two edge and two backers. I saw someone post about it.

 

thats too outside the box for Sean. 
 

woukd like to see some creativity as opposed to giving up 80% third down conversion rate 

[Simon]

2 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Zion Logue

Joey Bosa

Javon Solomon

 

What does this list have in common? Aside from being defensive lineman, they all also dropped into zone coverage yesterday. 
 

I’m still working through this film but between some bizarre play calling and guys just not making plays, it is a tough watch on D sometimes. 
 

My favorite so far is an achane run which was an attempt at power. Daquon Jones complete beats his guy across from him off the ball, and blows up the pulling guard who was en route to kick out Rousseau. That left both 50 and Shaq unblocked on the edge and yet they somehow both get beat to the outside when it bounces for a cool 10+ yard gain. 

 

 

 

This is a great post.

I don't know whether to drop a Wow emoji for the Zion Zone, a chuckle emoji for Shaq and Groot both somehow getting frozen simultaneously in the midst of good games or a thanks emoji for watching film and giving us all some solid insight. 

[Simon]

7 minutes ago, blizzardman said:

Miami was running some 4 D tackle with two edge and two backers. I saw someone post about it.

 

The few times I've seen them over the last couple years I've definitely noticed them loading it up and coming after people with numbers.

[boyst]

6 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

I didn't realize that's how he fit in there.

I bet Sam Mills enjoyed looking down on that corps.

It was a controversial decision to put Thompson in at the time because Klein was a solid realible veteran. The thought was Klein was a little bigger than Thompson, too. But, as we saw Klein doesn't play like he is 240, he plays lighter. Thompson was thought to play heavier but faster. They both ran similar 40's, I just checked. And Klein is 3 yrs older.

 

Thompson, of course, being a first round pick was going to get in there and see time. He was drafted after Shane Ray and Dupree from Pittsburgh.  He started the first game and had injuries regularly over the first 3 seasons iirc

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

1 hour ago, Rat-boy said:

 

Agree. He’s widely considered one of, if not the best, nickel CBs in the game. One dude on the Fish last year was quoted as saying he is the key to the Bills’ D and they have to game plan specifically for him.

 

I get that there is recency bias and he may not be playing at the same level that last couple games, but there are so many lazy takes here.

Very rarely can a defensive player win games all on their own. Taron Johnson pick 6 on Lamar Jackson remains one of the best Buffalo sports moments of all time.
 

Going into the 4th quarter the Offense was sputtering and Baltimore on a long back breaking drive in the red zone about to tie the game up. Taron jumps the route and FLOORS it. Took a risk taking it out of the end zone, but delivered. 14 point swing just like that. What a moment. This was before the Bills were perennial playoff contenders too so the moment was even better because I wasn’t used to the success yet. 

Edited September 20 by ChronicAndKnuckles