Keon Coleman success by route - Not pretty

[NewEra]

28 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

I would absolutely argue against that notion. The offense scored the most point given up by the Chiefs in Arrowhead in 2 seasons, and the defense allowed the most points the Chiefs had scored all season. The Chiefs defense was top 5, the Chiefs offense was middle of the pack.

 

You can’t boil a 60 minute game down to a single crucial moment. All of the drives matter, and the offense performed extremely well in terms of points scored, and the defense played extremely poorly in terms of points allowed.

I don’t think the conversation is strictly based on this season.  Our offense has been better than our defense but hasn’t really lit it throughout the playoffs every year- although we’ve had some tremendous games. 
 

I do think the defense has been worse than our offense and should carry more blame

38 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Dion Dawkins is one of the best tackles in the world... And our offensive line is now one of the best 

 

 you can take plays from Joe Thomas where he looks bad

 

Calling out Dion is crazy because he is technique wise probably the best left tackle in the world and a top five left tackle.. you can't name five guys with more consistency over the last 6 years and that's what offensive line is about.. consistency

 

His technique is world class.. he has techniques that you don't see other linemen using

He is all of what you say….. but that doesn’t mean he can’t be called out for a bad play. If he didn’t get wrecked that play- we probably win the game.  That doesn’t mean he isn’t a great player

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I don’t think the conversation is strictly based on this season.  Our offense has been better than our defense but hasn’t really lit it throughout the playoffs every year- although we’ve had some tremendous games. 
 

I do think the defense has been worse than our offense and should carry more blame

He is all of what you say….. but that doesn’t mean he can’t be called out for a bad play. If he didn’t get wrecked that play- we probably win the game.  That doesn’t mean he isn’t a great player

That's very true.. and I've never had a problem being critical with Bills players who need to perform better 

 

But I think there's a lot more people you could point at before you point to Dawkins

 

 it's not easy to block The blind side of a player like Allen.. Tom Brady got the ball out in 1.5 seconds every play and you knew where he was going to be 

 

That's tackle-friendly 

 

Josh has escape ability that could make bad offensive lineman look better... But coming from The blind side they're trained to hold their block 1 2 3 quarterback has the ball out 

 

 I was a defensive back but it's probably not easy to be the left tackle for Josh Allen or Brett favre guys who like to ad lib... He had the widest split last year for a left tackle in the last 12 years 

 

And that's because they are running off the nine technique on Josh Allen to contain the pocket and he has a very hard block

 

 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

Last year (2023) was the o-line. It's a touchdown if Dawkins wasn't dog walked into Allen has he was throwing to a wide open Shakir in the endzone. We were about to take the lead but Dawkins got manhandled.

 

It was also Shakir. He gets held up in coverage and was late to the spot which makes Josh hold the ball a split second longer. 

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

Dion Dawkins is one of the best tackles in the world... And our offensive line is now one of the best 

 

 you can take plays from Joe Thomas where he looks bad

 

Calling out Dion is crazy because he is technique wise probably the best left tackle in the world and a top five left tackle.. you can't name five guys with more consistency over the last 6 years and that's what offensive line is about.. consistency

 

His technique is world class.. he has techniques that you don't see other linemen using

I wasn't crapping on Dion. Just calling a spade a spade.

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, Einstein said:

I wasn't crapping on Dion. Just calling a spade a spade.

Even Tom Brady has had bad plays.. Dion isn't perfect but I bet he would make that block 7-8 out of 10

Edited yesterday at 08:59 PM by Buffalo716

[DapperCam]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

I don’t think the conversation is strictly based on this season.  Our offense has been better than our defense but hasn’t really lit it throughout the playoffs every year- although we’ve had some tremendous games. 
 

I do think the defense has been worse than our offense and should carry more blame

Our offense in the playoffs the past 4 postseasons has scored: 47, 36, 34, 10, 31, 24, 31, 27, and 29 points. That is almost exactly an average of 30 points scored per game. That is actually insane for the playoffs. A lot of those games were against top-5 defenses for those seasons. In games we were eliminated we scored 36, 10, 24, 29. Obviously that Cincy game sticks out there, but that end of season was whack.

By the way, the KC offense has averaged 28.3 points scored per game in that same postseason time period, and they've never lost if they scored more than 24 points. I would argue the defense shoulders 100% of the blame for our playoff eliminations and close-calls (except for the Cincy game, which was a team effort, and the offense had bad turnovers in the Miami wildcard game).

Edited yesterday at 09:27 PM by DapperCam

[NewEra]

25 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

Our offense in the playoffs the past 4 postseasons has scored: 47, 36, 34, 10, 31, 24, 31, 27, and 29 points. That is almost exactly an average of 30 points scored per game. That is actually insane for the playoffs. A lot of those games were against top-5 defenses for those seasons. In games we were eliminated we scored 36, 10, 24, 29. Obviously that Cincy game sticks out there, but that end of season was whack.

By the way, the KC offense has averaged 28.3 points scored per game in that same postseason time period, and they've never lost if they scored more than 24 points. I would argue the defense shoulders 100% of the blame for our playoff eliminations and close-calls (except for the Cincy game, which was a team effort, and the offense had bad turnovers in the Miami wildcard game).

💯 of the blame isn’t really a thing in over the course of 4 playoff runs.  The offense had chances in a two of those losses and came up short- which takes some of the blame off of the D.  Not all.  Not the majority- but negates the 💯 blame comment imo.  

[MasterStrategist]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Your "feels" approach to the math is not congruent with the facts.

 

In 7 divisional round and championship games the Josh Allen Bills offense has averaged only 22.85 points scored.

 

So less than 23 points per game is supposed to beat Mahomes, Jackson and Burrow how often exactly?   

 

In that same span the defense has allowed 27.71 points per game.   And also chipped in 7 points with the biggest postseason play in Bills history.....the 99 yard Taron Johnson pick six.   

 

So the offense scores about 6 less per game than they do in the regular season from 2020-2025 and the defense allows about 8 more than they normally do(7 net if you factor in their scoring).

 

The reality is BOTH sides underperform by similar degrees in these huge games.  

 

BOTH.

 

And one of those sides has the only great player the Bills have on it.

 

So he either sucks when the chips are down or the talent around him isn't right.

 

I fall on the "talent around him" has failed him side.  

 

 

 

 

Like I said, you just repeated my exact comments --- both sides underperform.

 

And in big moments, we have ZERO defens8ve players up to the challenge/elite.

 

And yeah, Josh made some mistakes---  his talent gets away with it.  That picture shows a player with a torn PCL diving....what if Josh didnt adjust the protection to the left and actually looked playside/with the motion....we are talking a 1st down.

8 hours ago, FireChans said:

The thing about "clutch" plays, is that they all benefit from the result.

 

For example:

 

If Bass connects on the FG in 2023 or the Bills score a TD and stifle the Chiefs, not only is the offense clutch for their contribution, but the defense is clutch for saving the game with the Poyer punch out. 

 

If Josh scores the go-ahead TD last year, the Bills defense looks clutch for that massive stop late to give the offense the ball back with a chance to win it.

 

So, when you look at it from that perspective, those are two "clutch" defensive moments that ended up not being clutch because the offense didn't hold up on their end. 

 

Now of course, you play this game with 13 seconds and the opposite is true. The offense looked clutch, and the defense failed them, twice.

 

Unfortunately, when you have knocked on the door as much as we have, there are going to be a million things we can point to.  Reid having McD's number, the offense failing in clutch time, the defense failing in clutch time, the whole team not showing up to play for the 2020 AFCCG or the 2022 Bengals loss. 

 

But history is written by the victors. If the defense holds on in 2021, or the offense scores go-ahead points in 2023 and 2024 and the Bills may be the clutch "never say die" dynasty team of the era. 

Agree, clutch is clutch.  Meaning whoever makes the last big play in these close games become the victor....

 

We're saying the same thing.  Key thing is we have 1 elite player on offense and zero on defense, my point is we need to find a difference maker on that side of the ball--- or get alot more from DL and secondary units.

[BADOLBILZ]

On 6/5/2025 at 10:32 PM, NewEra said:

No- it’s not.  That’s not what I said as you continue to move the goalposts to fit whatever you’re trying to prove.

 

how many times has the defense played well in in season ending losses since we’ve been contenders?   Zero.  If the defense hadn’t put up absolute stinkers in those games, clutch plays by the offense may not even have to have been made as games are already over.  
 

How many points have we given up in season ending defeats?  The answer is more points than we’ve ever averaged-  but the O is supposed to outscore that number playing vs an all time DC coaching a very good D…. Got it

 

Regarding your last statement-  I never said the offense was good enough.  If you had read any of what I had said you’d realize that I said there is blame placed on the offense and the defense….   Not JUST the offense.  But move the goalposts and act like I’m trying to sell that it’s all on the offense.  Just blatantly making stuff up.

 

I’ve always said there are multiple reasons why we haven’t made a Super Bowl.  Playing terrible defense and allowing teams to put up 33ppg in season ending losses is the biggest reason- not the only reason

 

 

Again,  in the divisional and CG rounds where they face worthy opponents with comparable QB play......both the offense and defense have underperformed by about a TD verus their regular season points scored and points allowed numbers.  

 

 Calling one or the other the "biggest reason" or "main reason" implies that there is a significant gap between one area or the other.  

 

But there isn't.

 

Claiming otherwise is just a vague perspective-free argument that harkens back to the drought era bozo's constant lamenting about the Bills having deserved better than their final record because they lost a lot of games by one score.

 

But even if there was an actual huge discrepancy...........say the offense wasn't horrendous in the first AFCCG loss or the Bengals loss or the two Baltimore wins.......that "main/biggest reason" would STILL be trumped by the actual sequences that decided the close losses.    

 

Case in point.........Did you know that the Andy Reid Chiefs have been outscored 148-125 in their 5 Super Bowls?  

 

Those are hollow stats........because the f#cking Chiefs won 3 of those because guys like Mahomes, Hill, Kelce and Jones made big plays in the clutch to close those victories over SF and Philly out.

 

When these Bills get in those spots they have ALWAYS choked.    

 

We don't think of them in the same way as the SB choking Bills........but there is no signature game winning drive or stop in the divisional or CG round in the Allen era.

 

And, IMO,  it's because they lack difference makers in the passing game and the pass rush.   

 

And while many of us may agree in principle on THAT..........you aren't even within kicking distance of the goal posts if you are clinging to meaning from hollow, totally perspective-less numbers like "33 ppg allowed in 5 playoff losses".    

 

That's just looking for an EXCUSE when the answer is right in front of your face.   

 

Terrible performance in the final 13 seconds of regulation is why they lost 13 seconds.   Brady and Allen's stupidity on the final drive are why they lost the next Chiefs playoff matchup.  And the offense turning the ball over on downs on 2 consecutive drives to end the game is why they lost the last one.  

 

 

 

Edited 18 hours ago by BADOLBILZ

[Doc Brown]

12 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Even Tom Brady has had bad plays.. Dion isn't perfect but I bet he would make that block 7-8 out of 10

Tom Brady would've checked it down to Diggs.  

[NewEra]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Again,  in the divisional and CG rounds where they face worthy opponents with comparable QB play......both the offense and defense have underperformed by about a TD verus their regular season points scored and points allowed numbers.  

 

 Calling one or the other the "biggest reason" or "main reason" implies that there is a significant gap between one area or the other.  

 

But there isn't.

 

Claiming otherwise is just a vague perspective-free argument that harkens back to the drought era bozo's constant lamenting about the Bills having deserved better than their final record because they lost a lot of games by one score.

 

But even if there was an actual huge discrepancy...........say the offense wasn't horrendous in the first AFCCG loss or the Bengals loss or the two Baltimore wins.......that "main/biggest reason" would STILL be trumped by the actual sequences that decided the close losses.    

 

Case in point.........Did you know that the Andy Reid Chiefs have been outscored 148-125 in their 5 Super Bowls?  

 

Those are hollow stats........because the f#cking Chiefs won 3 of those because guys like Mahomes, Hill, Kelce and Jones made big plays in the clutch to close those victories over SF and Philly out.

 

When these Bills get in those spots they have ALWAYS choked.    

 

We don't think of them in the same way as the SB choking Bills........but there is no signature game winning drive or stop in the divisional or CG round in the Allen era.

 

And, IMO,  it's because they lack difference makers in the passing game and the pass rush.   

 

And while many of us may agree in principle on THAT..........you aren't even within kicking distance of the goal posts if you are clinging to meaning from hollow, totally perspective-less numbers like "33 ppg allowed in 5 playoff losses".    

 

That's just looking for an EXCUSE when the answer is right in front of your face.   

 

Terrible performance in the final 13 seconds of regulation is why they lost 13 seconds.   Brady and Allen's stupidity on the final drive are why they lost the next Chiefs playoff matchup.  And the offense turning the ball over on downs on 2 consecutive drives to end the game is why they lost the last one.  

 

 

 

When I say “main reason”- I’m referring to our season ending without a Lombardi.  Not sure what you are referring too in regards to “main reason”.   Each game is its own separate entity. The offense underperforming in the divisional games has ZERO bearing on our season ending.  
 

 

Side note-You refer to being clutch being a separate entity from the entire game…. Which I agree with…..yet are somehow lumping prior wins with eventual losses.  If executing in the clutch is different than executing in the 1st qtr or throughout the game, it’s fair to say that executing in the afccg or the SB is different than executing in the 1st and 2nd rounds. You’re playing both sides of the fence in order to make your point. 

Either you lump everything together in your argument….or you don’t.  You’re doing both. 

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Tom Brady would've checked it down to Diggs.  

 

Yep. This is the line of the entire thread. If anyone wants to make the comparison argument on that play the ball WOULD have been gone a second before Dion gets pushed back if that was Brady and Diggs would have the first down, clock still moving. Bills in position to win the game. 

 

I am not quite as harsh as some on the decision to take a shot there. But if you want to pull the what would Tom Brady have done (hell even what would Mahomes have done) the ball would be with Diggs wide open underneath because the KC defense had backed right off into soft zones and it would have been a first down.

Edited 6 hours ago by GunnerBill

[NewEra]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. This is the line of the entire thread. If anyone wants to make the comparison argument on that play the ball WOULD have been gone a second before Dion gets pushed back if that was Brady and Diggs would have the first down, clock still moving. Bills in position to win the game. 

 

I am not quite as harsh as some on the decision to take a shot there. But if you want to pull the what would Tom Brady have done (hell even what would Mahomes have done) the ball would be with Diggs wide open underneath because the KC defense had backed right off into soft zones and it would have been a first down.

💯 

[Billl]

29 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. This is the line of the entire thread. If anyone wants to make the comparison argument on that play the ball WOULD have been gone a second before Dion gets pushed back if that was Brady and Diggs would have the first down, clock still moving. Bills in position to win the game. 

 

I am not quite as harsh as some on the decision to take a shot there. But if you want to pull the what would Tom Brady have done (hell even what would Mahomes have done) the ball would be with Diggs wide open underneath because the KC defense had backed right off into soft zones and it would have been a first down.

 

Brady would have slid in the pocket.

 

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, Billl said:

 

Brady would have slid in the pocket.

 

 

Yea he would. I have said since that play any one of three things happens and the play works. Josh slides a couple of inches, ge can make the throw. Dion holds his block a split second longer, Josh can make the throw. Khalil clears the coverage a split second sooner (he gets kinda tangled with the safety you can see in that shot) and he makes the play. Any of those 3 things happen it's a touchdown. Which is why I don't hate the decision as much as some... the execution was off in 3 small ways that sink the play. They are the margins in the post season.

 

I think Brady actually would have had the ball out underneath before he needed to slide, but if he did decide to take the shot agree he manipulated the pocket better than any QB in history to find those split seconds that make all the difference.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, NewEra said:

When I say “main reason”- I’m referring to our season ending without a Lombardi.  Not sure what you are referring too in regards to “main reason”.   Each game is its own separate entity. The offense underperforming in the divisional games has ZERO bearing on our season ending.  
 

 

Side note-You refer to being clutch being a separate entity from the entire game…. Which I agree with…..yet are somehow lumping prior wins with eventual losses.  If executing in the clutch is different than executing in the 1st qtr or throughout the game, it’s fair to say that executing in the afccg or the SB is different than executing in the 1st and 2nd rounds. You’re playing both sides of the fence in order to make your point. 

Either you lump everything together in your argument….or you don’t.  You’re doing both. 

 

Do you actually think your vague, barstool logic works?

 

The "main reason" the Bills season has ended without a Lombardi is LITERALLY because they haven't even reached one.   It's not mainly the offense or defense.  

 

Who knows what the defense does if they reach a SB and don't have to face Mahomes, Burrow or Lamar in a big playoff game for once.

 

If the defense makes a play in 13 seconds or the offense makes a play at the end of the last two losses then maybe we'd have found out.

 

And yes, the Bills 29 ppg offense from 2020-2025 regularly underperforming in these games ABSOLUTELY has bearing on their season ending.

 

 How can you claim it doesn't when you watched that Bengals blowout or the Allen/Brady choke job at the end of 2023 season?    Ridiculous.

 

You guys have these vague conflations that represent the "excuses" that I am talking about.

 

Like @MasterStrategist claiming the Bills have to score 30+ points in these divisional or AFCCG matches is another one.    

 

It's hyperbole.  These underachieving Bills score just under 23 and allow just under 28 in the divisional and AFCCG rounds where they end up bowing out every year.

 

Maybe if their offensive scoring average is 26 in those games they win 2 or 3 of those 5 losses?

 

IF.........those scores are timely.   Specifically at the end of the several very close games.

 

Which brings us to the biggest thing your arguments lack.

 

Context.

 

The Chiefs allow 29+ ppg in SB's but have won 3 of 5 despite being significantly outscored overall.

 

And no, I'm not playing both sides of the fence when I don't consider the WC round and the divisional round in the same sense.  

 

There are only 4 teams that have mattered in the AFC since 2020.  

 

We speedboated Mac Jones?  

 

Who cares?  

 

Does it really matter that the Bills were struggling offensively for 3 quarters in the WC game against the Broncos last year?

 

 The Bills were clearly the overwhelming favorite and better team in all of these games.

 

The ONLY clutch end-of-game sequence that the offense or defense has ever had in the playoffs in the Allen era was the defensive stop at the end of that Colts WC game.    

 

But a tired Philip Rivers,  Mason Rudolph, the severely out-QB's divisional opponents and rookie Bo Nix?   What do we glean from parsing meaning from the Bills performances in the WC round?

 

And again, for context........the 2020 Tom Brady SB winning Bucs won a closely contested, one-score WC game against a lousy 7-9 Washington team.   

 

[Alphadawg7]

20 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It was also Shakir. He gets held up in coverage and was late to the spot which makes Josh hold the ball a split second longer. 

 

No disrespect, but for this play, this is not remotely accurate, Shakir had not even encountered a defender before Allen made the throw.  

 

Shakir had a free release from 26 yard line and didn't encounter a defender until the 6 yard line when the ball was already in the air.  Nothing at any point slowed Shakir or his route down prior to Allen putting the ball in the air..and had Allen not been stepped on the balls path was on the exact trajectory to hit Shakir exactly where he was open in the end zone.  Nothing Shakir did or didn't do impacted how long Allen had to hold the ball.  

 

This play failed Jones won the rep vs Dion combined with Allen not recognizing it and sliding or stepping up to avoid and get a clean throw off.  Shakir did his job.  

 

Play starts at 7:45 and then you can see the angle from behind Allen at 8:04.  

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No disrespect, but for this play, this is not remotely accurate, Shakir had not even encountered a defender before Allen made the throw.  

 

Shakir had a free release from 26 yard line and didn't encounter a defender until the 6 yard line when the ball was already in the air.  Nothing at any point slowed Shakir or his route down prior to Allen putting the ball in the air..and had Allen not been stepped on the balls path was on the exact trajectory to hit Shakir exactly where he was open in the end zone.  Nothing Shakir did or didn't do impacted how long Allen had to hold the ball.  

 

This play failed Jones won the rep vs Dion combined with Allen not recognizing it and sliding or stepping up to avoid and get a clean throw off.  Shakir did his job.  

 

Play starts at 7:45 and then you can see the angle from behind Allen at 8:04.  

 

 

 

 

Okay there isn't the contact that there was in my memory but he doesn't clear from Justin Reid quickly enough. He just wasn't precise enough in his cut. He is late to the spot.

Edited 3 hours ago by GunnerBill

[Alphadawg7]

13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Okay there isn't the contact that there was in my memory but he doesn't clear from Justin Reid quickly enough. He just wasn't precise enough in his cut. He is late to the spot.

 

Again, no disrepsect, but that is still not accurate, you said Shakir got held up and it made Allen hold the ball a second too long.  But Allen throws the pass before Shakir even encounter Reid or makes his cut. So again, no disrespect, but what you said is just not what happened.  And the result was Shakir was right where the ball was headed and open in the endzone for the TD catch had it not been short armed because Dion lost his rep against Jones and Allen failed to see/feel the pressure to slide and make a clean slow.  

 

Shakir made a move on Reid, won his rep and cut on Reid, and was wide open for the go ahead and possible game winning TD.  The entire failure of the play was on Dion and Allen, Shakir did his job on this play and that is a route you will take from your WR's 10 out 10 times.

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Alphadawg7

[Einstein]

12 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

This play failed Jones won the rep vs Dion combined with Allen not recognizing it and sliding or stepping up to avoid and get a clean throw off.  Shakir did his job.  

What in the world!? You wanted Allen to slide protection against a 4 man rush and a uniform defensive front with a blitzer threatening on the opposite side!? And you wanted Allen to step up into the pocket, which would have hastened him being hit by Jones? QB's step up in the pocket to avoid pass rushers coming on the backside. Not pass rushers bull rushing. If Allen steps up, Jones swims inside and blasts Allen into the turf

There is one person to blame on that play and his name rhymes with Peion Pawkins. Maybe an honorable mention to Shakir route running taking a tad longer than it should have.