Doc Brown Posted September 17 Posted September 17 This last game was not on Caleb Williams. I thought he played pretty well besides the one bad decision of trying to make a play that led to a pick. The Bears defense got toasted. Quote
GoBills808 Posted September 17 Posted September 17 3 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said: I don't see Peterman as anything but a joke of a QB, insert placeholder QB here. Our leadership was of the philosophy that they didnt want to throw Josh to the wolves too early, until they realized the garbage they had in Peterman. they drafted and handpicked that garbage after two training camps lol they didn't have a plan. they were/are in the process of being saved by allen's greatness. it's ok to admit that Quote
Wayne Cubed Posted September 17 Posted September 17 1 hour ago, HappyDays said: I just couldn't disagree more with this. Daboll was a nobody that had spent his career as the OC for bottom ranked offenses. Allen's pass catchers were Kelvin Benjamin, Zay Jones, Andre Holmes, and Charles Clay. His starting OL was 2nd year Dion Dawkins, Vlad Ducasse, Russell Bodine, John Miller, and Jordan Mills. A lot of young QBs have a solid veteran in the room to help them learn - Allen had Nathan Peterman. We only retroactively say that the Bills set Allen up for success because he ended up a success. The reality is he had as bad a supporting cast as you could possibly formulate. Allen has a lot of superpowers that make him an elite QB. One that probably doesn't get enough credit nationally is his ability to confront his flaws and fix them ridiculously fast. Allen has had plenty of bad games throughout his career but he has very very rarely had two in a row. He completely rebuilt his mechanics from the ground up and recently changed his entire play style to fit a new scheme and philosophy. I credit McDermott and Beane for turning the culture around here but I don't credit them for Allen's ascension. His own mental and physical abilities made him who he is today. Also, are some suggesting it was McD/Beane who told Allen to seek out Palmer? That it wasn’t Josh’s idea and desire to improve that saw him go to Palmer in the offseason, 3 seasons in a row? That was all Josh and he would have done that wherever he landed in the NFL. Quote
34-78-83 Posted September 17 Posted September 17 3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: they drafted and handpicked that garbage after two training camps lol they didn't have a plan. they were/are in the process of being saved by allen's greatness. it's ok to admit that Thats the nature of drafting aye. Sure was an awful pick... I think it was just a longer term plan that they discussed with the Pegulas at the time and agreed on as an organization. They had to put lipstick on a pig for a while, and knew that was likely going to be the case. They made some business decisions on non-character guys that hampered them financially, along with some other limitations from previous contracts. They believed all along that Allen would eventually be great. And yes, very good to great QB's are always what keeps a franchise at the top on a multi-year approach. They are really zero exceptions to this any more. Some like the Rams-ish short term approach to winning. The Bills org isn't that. Some like it. Some don't. Quote
RkFast Posted September 17 Posted September 17 On 9/16/2025 at 9:40 AM, QCity said: It's not impetuous. Even Veruca Salt knows we're hitting the back end of Josh's career. In like 5 years. Hes 29, not 34. Quote
Logic Posted September 17 Posted September 17 Me stepping into this thread to see what people are saying about Ben Johnson and seeing what it has become instead Quote
Mr. WEO Posted September 17 Posted September 17 1 hour ago, GoBills808 said: well don't take it from me lol you can ask McVay or any nfl person in general who the better QB is McVay couldn't coach Goff. Stafford was a star for years when he rolled in. Team was loaded up for a SB. Won a single playoff game since (lost to Detroit after the SB year for a one and done). Goff has the most passing yards and TDs over the past 3 seasons. Quote
GoBills808 Posted September 17 Posted September 17 5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: McVay couldn't coach Goff. Stafford was a star for years when he rolled in. Team was loaded up for a SB. Won a single playoff game since (lost to Detroit after the SB year for a one and done). Goff has the most passing yards and TDs over the past 3 seasons. Say you think Goff is as good as Stafford lol I want to see it in writing 'couldnt coach goff'😂😂yes he's some unfathomable talent only the right hands can mold Quote
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted September 17 Posted September 17 58 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: they drafted and handpicked that garbage after two training camps lol they didn't have a plan. they were/are in the process of being saved by allen's greatness. it's ok to admit that It's my annual reminder that preseason is literally not at all comparable to actual NFL football. When the rookies look good I always remind myself that under the right circumstances, peterman looked good. Quote
GunnerBill Posted September 17 Posted September 17 1 hour ago, GoBills808 said: no rookie HC and staff plans two consecutive 'transitional years' there is no such job security in the NFL 2018 was a transitional year. The Bills middled 2017. They didn't go all in on a rebuild, they didn't go all in on winning. It worked out and McDermott coached his ass off that year. It was an odd and risky way to do it. But McDermott clearly wanted his buddy in situ as GM before he tied himself to a Quarterback. By 2019 they had to win and they did. 13 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Say you think Goff is as good as Stafford lol I want to see it in writing 'couldnt coach goff'😂😂yes he's some unfathomable talent only the right hands can mold He is as good as Stafford, right now. Peak Matt Stafford was a tier above peak Jared Goff. I know he had a good game Sunday, but Stafford isn't still that guy. 1 Quote
GoBills808 Posted September 17 Posted September 17 7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: He is as good as Stafford, right now. Peak Matt Stafford was a tier above peak Jared Goff. I know he had a good game Sunday, but Stafford isn't still that guy. we're very clearly not talking about right now lol 1 Quote
Buffalo716 Posted September 17 Posted September 17 (edited) 4 hours ago, Mikie2times said: We have debated this before, but as happy calls out, I think the great ones will be great anywhere. Perhaps coaching and circumstance allow that to come together sooner. But these guys we are seeing boomerang are not the very best. They will ultimately prove to be starting caliber and sometimes really good QB's. Take Allen for example. He started his rookie year as all these guys did and did so for a perennial loser. His QB whisperer was a guy in New York who couldn't make Daniel Jones work and now it appears like Jones could be the next Boomerang QB. I'm sure Dabs helped Josh, but I'm more sure Josh helped himself with Jordan Palmer and the rebuild of his mechanics. You have called out how much McD is responsible for Allen. Allen was inevitable and that was because of who he is. Not anybody else. I think the culture, team, and system matter more when the guy isn't at that level. Mentally or physically. They can't overcome a bad org and bad coaching. But I don't believe the elite ones would just all of sudden not be that way in other circumstances. Perhaps the progression would be impacted, but these guys just have drive, talent, and intelligence that is at another level compared to others. I think the great quarterbacks will probably be good anywhere I 100% don't agree that Patrick mahomes would be the exact same quarterback in 31 other teams.. if Josh Allen goes to the Jets I think he probably showed flashes and is good but again does not reach his height with the bills because of our organization being top-notch Same with Tom Brady If Tom Brady goes to the lions or browns at 22 I don't think he's anything close to the same player I think they could all be really good.. but I find it highly highly unlikely that Brady gets 7 rings if he doesn't start off his career with belichick I don't think mahomes has three super bowls if he doesn't start with Andy Reid The Buffalo Bills organization 100% has been a calming growing influence on Josh.. literally every single 22-year-old kid has a chance to be a bust.. it's not fair to coaching staffs to say they don't have an influence which is why they're around... To think Josh Allen would be an MVP if he was drafted by the Jets , it's not happening I think his career is much more Sam darnold trajectory then Patrick mahomes is regressing from what he was and he still has great coaching.. so it shows that even someone who is considered great can even start losing itba bit... Even with tremendous coaching...Kurt Warner was great with the Rams Didn't play good for years until he got to the Cardinals There's a lot of things with quarterbacks going on and to think every truly great quarterback.. could be as just as good in any situation I don't believe that Players would be coaching themselves and calling plays themselves if they didn't need people to help them develop... Josh Allen has been getting developed by the Buffalo Bills extremely well and the entire football world agrees with that Joe burrow certainly can be a lot less effective in a lot of other places just look at him now he already struggles to stay on the field... If he was in Chicago his career wouldn't be nearly as close and it still falling apart Situation matters For the elite quarterbacks to even reach that elite status they need to be in the right place with the right staff... Sure once you reach elite status it's hard to lose it because they knew what it took to get there But I don't think Patrick mahomes becomes elite Patrick mahomes if he's on the Chicago bears ... I don't believe that at all Edited September 17 by Buffalo716 1 Quote
Mr. WEO Posted September 17 Posted September 17 37 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Say you think Goff is as good as Stafford lol I want to see it in writing 'couldnt coach goff'😂😂yes he's some unfathomable talent only the right hands can mold i've already said it. right now he's better, to answer your specific question that we are clearly talking about. Quote
Buffalo716 Posted September 17 Posted September 17 (edited) 9 hours ago, FireChans said: I agree with largely all of this. The QB himself is 90% personally responsible for their own development and success. the old “how would Brady and Peyton have done if they were drafted in the opposite situations” question was easy to answer. Both may have had a slightly different number of Super Bowls, but both would have still been all time QBs Darnold is about to go back to being a backup after spending 2 seasons with two of the best offensive minds in the NFL who couldn’t hide his flaws forever. Sam Darnold was never going to be good. Seems like a nice kid so it sucks, but that’s the way it goes. Yeah but if Tom Brady was drafted by the Detroit Lions also not Tom Brady That's why good coaching could make somebody who's decent look good.. good look really good.. and make someone who's really good great Bad coaching will take someone who's good and make them look average There is zero world where if Tom Brady was drafted by plenty of teams he's anything close to getting developed by Bill belichick for 15 years Even Patrick mahomes is regressing right now.. just because you are really really good doesn't mean it's guaranteed forever In the NFL if you're not progressing you are regressing I have always said that.. Josh Allen's been steadily going up still to this day Patrick Mahoney's been slowly going down And Pat still has great coaching.. if Patrick mahomes got drafted by the Chicago bears he's not anything close to what he was.. not close To say situation doesn't matter is akin to saying coaches don't matter in the NFL.. players can train themselves players can coach themselves... Because nobody helps them and it's all them Kurt Warner is a Hall of famer who literally struggled for years.. when he was in the right situation he was amazing... When he wasn't it wasn't that great That could be any great quarterback... Joe burrow is going to be a footnote because the Bengals are ruining him and have ruined him... A great quarterback who in 10 years it's going to be what if he wasn't with them Because situation is everything Edited September 17 by Buffalo716 Quote
Coach Tuesday Posted September 17 Posted September 17 2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: Yeah but if Tom Brady was drafted by the Detroit Lions also not Tom Brady That's why good coaching could make somebody who's decent look good.. good look really good.. and make someone who's really good great Bad coaching will take someone who's good and make them look average There is zero world where if Tom Brady was drafted by plenty of teams he's anything close to getting developed by Bill belichick for 15 years Even Patrick mahomes is regressing right now.. just because you are really really good doesn't mean it's guaranteed forever In the NFL if you're not progressing you are regressing I have always said that.. Josh Allen's been steadily going up still to this day Patrick Mahoney's been slowly going down And Pat still has great coaching.. if Patrick mahomes got drafted by the Chicago bears he's not anything close to what he was.. not close To say situation doesn't matter is akin to saying coaches don't matter in the NFL.. players can train themselves players can coach themselves... Because nobody helps them and it's all them Tom Brady going to the Buffalo Bills is not changing the course of our history.. that skinny kid in 1999 who had the best defensive coordinator in the world shut down the greatest show on turf would not help the Buffalo Bills Part of the issue is the word "coaching" because it implies Xs and Os. I always stress on here - it's a team's overall Player Development Program, of which coaching is a part, but not the only part. There is so much that goes into teaching players how to become professionals and giving them the individual support they need in order to be great. Strength and conditioning, mechanics, other physical instruction and support are part of it - but sometimes it's even more wholistic than that. Helping them eliminate bad influences (friends and family members) who are interfering with their progress. Financial literacy. Teaching them to be good leaders and good colleagues. "Coaching" doesn't capture all of this stuff - and it varies wildly from organization to organization. Quote
Buffalo716 Posted September 17 Posted September 17 2 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said: Part of the issue is the word "coaching" because it implies Xs and Os. I always stress on here - it's a team's overall Player Development Program, of which coaching is a part, but not the only part. There is so much that goes into teaching players how to become professionals and giving them the individual support they need in order to be great. Strength and conditioning, mechanics, other physical instruction and support are part of it - but sometimes it's even more wholistic than that. Helping them eliminate bad influences (friends and family members) who are interfering with their progress. Financial literacy. Teaching them to be good leaders and good colleagues. "Coaching" doesn't capture all of this stuff - and it varies wildly from organization to organization. Exactly it's not all just x's and o's It's the entire building.. how do they set you up for success? Do you have a lot of people to lean on and trust? Do they allow you to make mistakes without fearing repercussion? Is the attitude of building upbeat and positive or mundane and negative? Do your coaches push you to be the best person in life? Like you said getting rid of negative influences and bad habits.. or are they okay with that if you just show up to work? Do they have a plan to fix your mechanics? Or are they just winging it... Can you take constructive criticism or not? There's so many little things throughout a NFL teams building that could make the experience really good or really bad for players... And how the organization is ran absolutely can impact development It 100% does 1 1 Quote
Mikie2times Posted September 17 Posted September 17 (edited) 2 hours ago, Buffalo716 said: I think the great quarterbacks will probably be good anywhere I 100% don't agree that Patrick mahomes would be the exact same quarterback in 31 other teams.. if Josh Allen goes to the Jets I think he probably showed flashes and is good but again does not reach his height with the bills because of our organization being top-notch Same with Tom Brady If Tom Brady goes to the lions or browns at 22 I don't think he's anything close to the same player I think they could all be really good.. but I find it highly highly unlikely that Brady gets 7 rings if he doesn't start off his career with belichick I don't think mahomes has three super bowls if he doesn't start with Andy Reid The Buffalo Bills organization 100% has been a calming growing influence on Josh.. literally every single 22-year-old kid has a chance to be a bust.. it's not fair to coaching staffs to say they don't have an influence which is why they're around... To think Josh Allen would be an MVP if he was drafted by the Jets , it's not happening I think his career is much more Sam darnold trajectory then Patrick mahomes is regressing from what he was and he still has great coaching.. so it shows that even someone who is considered great can even start losing itba bit... Even with tremendous coaching...Kurt Warner was great with the Rams Didn't play good for years until he got to the Cardinals There's a lot of things with quarterbacks going on and to think every truly great quarterback.. could be as just as good in any situation I don't believe that Players would be coaching themselves and calling plays themselves if they didn't need people to help them develop... Josh Allen has been getting developed by the Buffalo Bills extremely well and the entire football world agrees with that Joe burrow certainly can be a lot less effective in a lot of other places just look at him now he already struggles to stay on the field... If he was in Chicago his career wouldn't be nearly as close and it still falling apart Situation matters For the elite quarterbacks to even reach that elite status they need to be in the right place with the right staff... Sure once you reach elite status it's hard to lose it because they knew what it took to get there But I don't think Patrick mahomes becomes elite Patrick mahomes if he's on the Chicago bears ... I don't believe that at all This is beyond speculation and its just plan bad speculation. Both players entered the league with historically losing franchises. Both had low talent levels and roster support. Both had poor QB rooms. Dabs might be your shiny star, but that sort of fades given what Daniel Jones is doing. While also acknowledging the fact that Dabs did nothing prior. Your pushing the warm and fuzzies into the narrative years later, when Josh himself is the largest reason for the narrative. I'm sick of this mass credit to coaches for largely player driven, QB driven outcomes. Its the biggest farce in the NFL. You have 4-5 guys who are really good coaches and help the roster. You have a whole bunch who are average. Then you have 4-5 who likely hurt the teams they coach. Without that QB1 nobody is consistently over .500, if I'm wrong, show me the consistent playoff coach who isn't directly tied to a high output QB. Which you will likely say "because of coaching". Except when said QB leaves, the coach somehow never establishes the same level of success. It's a story as old as time yet people here actually think McD or Belichick or Reid are the glue. Even if they're top 5 guys, even of All Time, it falls apart without an MVP QB. 9 Super Bowls between them with the same two QB's. Edited September 17 by Mikie2times 1 Quote
Buffalo716 Posted September 17 Posted September 17 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Mikie2times said: This is beyond speculation and its just plan bad speculation. Both players entered the league with historically losing franchises. Both had low talent levels and roster support. Both had poor QB rooms. Dabs might be your shiny star, but that sort of fades given what Daniel Jones is doing. While also acknowledging the fact that Dabs did nothing prior. Your pushing the warm and fuzzies into the narrative years later, when Josh himself is the largest reason for the narrative. I'm sick of this mass credit to coaches for largely player driven, QB driven outcomes. Its the biggest farce in the NFL. You have 4-5 guys who are really good coaches and help the roster. You have a whole bunch who are average. Then you have 4-5 who likely hurt the teams they coach. Without that QB1 nobody is consistently over .500, if I'm wrong, show me the consistent playoff coach who isn't directly tied to a high output QB. Which you will likely say "because of coaching". Except when said QB leaves, the coach somehow never establishes the same level of success. It's a story as old as time yet people here actually think McD or Belichick or Reid are the glue. Even if they're top 5 guys, even of All Time, it falls apart without an MVP QB. 9 Super Bowls between them with the same two QB's. The Jets have not developed a franchise quarterback in 60 years The bills developed Joe Ferguson Jim Kelly and now Josh Allen .. that's three times as many quarterbacks who played for a decade The bears have not developed a franchise quarterback in 60 years... They traded for Cutler and never developed him more Remember Sam darnold got drafted ahead of Josh.. he has tons of talent and a good work ethic.. he is athletic he is accurate he was considered a top notch prospect ... And he went to Palmer's quarterback school too and works hard.. the difference was he was on the Jets.. and Baker was on the browns... Now does Josh have more talent than Sam? Yes, but Sam was much more polished.. and Josh needed to get polished.. which takes a team, it always has Josh Allen did not go to the bills organization which was in futile for 17 years.. he had McDermott right out the gate who is calm and level-headed and has a plan and allows players to grow... We know that now.. 8 years ago nobody knew what kind of long-term coach McDermott would be when it comes to player development McDermott built a culture which is a great influence on everybody on the team.. from Josh Allen to the lowest guy on the practice squad... Everybody respects everybody at one Bills drive from the coaches to the chefs to the mail guy that Josh Allen shouted out.. that is the culture that breeds winning and development Kurt Warner is a Hall of Famer and nobody can tell me he would be the same guy if he didn't go to the Rams... In fact most of his career is not that great... But with the right coaching and team around him he was an MVP Yes I 100% Believe Josh Allen if he got drafted by the Jets is not winning six straight AFC East titles because they are a dumpster fire... He could still be good.. he certainly doesn't become the cerebral, non turnover machine we have now He certainly is not an MVP.. that's literally taking credit away from everybody in the bills organization who has helped build him up Again if they didn't need coaches to make them better.. they wouldn't hire coaches... If Josh didn't think going to Palmer would help.. he wouldn't go to Palmer... McDermott has had a plan since day one and he's executed it... This site was filled with plenty of people who still were not sold on Allen one and two years in... There were plenty of people here Look at guys like Justin fields and Trevor Lawrence.. insane talent... to just say we lucked into the best football player of all time is kind of Silly... He had to be molded.. and he took the coaching and he became the best player in the world Edited September 17 by Buffalo716 Quote
Mikie2times Posted September 17 Posted September 17 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: The Jets have not developed a franchise quarterback in 60 years The bills developed Joe Ferguson Jim Kelly and now Josh Allen .. that's three times as many quarterbacks who played for a decade The bears have not developed a franchise quarterback in 60 years... They traded for Cutler and never developed him more Remember Sam darnold got drafted ahead of Josh.. he has tons of talent and a good work ethic.. he is athletic he is accurate he was considered a top notch prospect ... And he went to Palmer's quarterback school too and works hard.. the difference was he was on the Jets.. and Baker was on the browns... Now does Josh have more talent than Sam? Yes, but Sam was much more polished.. and Josh needed to get polished.. which takes a team Josh Allen did not go to the bills organization which was in futile for 17 years.. he had McDermott right out the gate who is the glue and gives players the best chance to develop McDermott built a culture which is a great influence on everybody on the team.. from Josh Allen to the lowest guy on the practice squad... Everybody respects everybody at one Bills drive from the coaches to the chefs to the mail guy that Josh Allen shouted out.. that is the culture that breeds winning and development Kurt Warner is a Hall of Famer and nobody can tell me he would be the same guy if he didn't go to the Rams... In fact most of his career is not that great... But with the right coaching and team around him he was an MVP Yes I 100% Believe Josh Allen if he got drafted by the Jets is not winning six straight AFC East titles because they are a dumpster fire... He could still be pretty good.. he certainly doesn't become the cerebral, non turnover machine we have now He certainly is not an MVP.. that's literally taking credit away from everybody in the bills organization who has helped build him up Again if they didn't need coaches to make them better.. they wouldn't hire coaches... If Josh didn't think going to Palmer would help.. he wouldn't go to Palmer... They are all humans... Look at guys like Justin fields and Trevor Lawrence.. insane talent It takes more than just pure talent... Who was the QB that these franchises ruined? Who did we ruin during the drought? Somebody that would have done something if McD was around 15 years ag with our culture? The comment about coaches makes no sense. Every position on earth has a leadership role people report to that provides basic structure and strategy. Every sport has a coach and even if you're elite in that role in Football, you quickly show your worth without your star QB. Meanwhile that QB leaves and just keeps on going. Calling out Fields or Lawrence as an example of guys to justify your point makes no sense. You have to have mental make up to be successful. By your definition we can blame the Raiders for ruining Jamarcus Russell or maybe Russell is the one that couldn't hack it. This run starts and ends with Allen. It is that simple. Once his time is done we will go back to the same pool of mediocre franchises searching for a QB that we can one day credit our coach for "grooming". Edited September 17 by Mikie2times Quote
Buffalo716 Posted September 17 Posted September 17 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Mikie2times said: Who was the QB that these franchises ruined? Who did we ruin during the drought? Somebody that would have done something if McD was around 15 years ag with our culture? The comment about coaches makes no sense. Every position on earth has a leadership role people report to that provides basic structure and strategy. Every sport has a coach and even if you're elite in that role in Football, you quickly show you're worth without your star QB. Meanwhile that QB leaves and just keeps on going. Calling out Fields or Lawrence is an example of guys to justify your point makes no sense. You have to have mental make up to be successful. By your definition we can blame the Raiders for ruining Jamarcus Russell or maybe Russell is the one that couldn't hack it. This run starts and ends with Allen. It is that simple. Once his time is done we will go back to the same pool of mediocre franchises searching for a QB that we can one day credit our coach for "grooming". There was plenty of people after one in two years on this own website who were not sold on Josh Allen Go back to the end of his second year and there was still plenty of people not 100% sold on Josh as the future of our team in this site lol This is not as cut and dry as we just lucked into the best player in the world.. Buffalo Bills did have to help develop him To think Josh Allen is the best player in the world on 31 other teams is honestly kind of crazy.. he might be on a couple teams.. on 24 other teams he's not the best player in the world because they would not have developed him correctly We can agree to disagree but it's crazy to think that if player x starts his career at spot y he's exactly the same Edited September 17 by Buffalo716 Quote
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