2015 Carolina Panthers: Have we ever been as good?

[GoBills808]

The answer is no

[billsfan89]

The 2015 Panthers were an instance of a very good team getting really really lucky. Of their 15 wins 7 were by one score margins. Their division was also not that strong featuring 6, 7 and 8 win teams. The NFC in general also was not that great, there were only 6 teams with winning records (including the Panthers). The Panthers also got a lot of career years from a lot of different players who never achieved the same level of success. I think the Bills have gotten a much better level of consistency being an 11 win or better team from 2020-23 and having at least a playoff victory with each season along with a division title. 

[Thurman#1]

9 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

Was it really a drop-off though?  

 

He was an incredibly average QB in every other season, no?  ... by any measure.  

 

On that season his passing stats were skewed by three monster 5 TD games against the two worst ranked paying D teams and the 25th ranked.  Those were the the best passing games of his entire career.  

 

The rest of his season was also incredibly average.  

 

 

 

 

No, I don't think so, although I really hadn't remembered as well as I thought I had. Obviously I hadn't been watching him and the Panthers as much as the Bills.

 

His dropoff didn't really come after 2015. More 2017 or 2018. You're right that particularly in passing TDs, 2015 was the standout year. Average overall? No, I'd say he had plenty of good years till about 2017 when his running started to drop off and his passing wasn't too far behind. In 2017 he had the rotator cuff. In 2018 the shoulder injury that reduced his performance at the end of the year and his Lisfranc injury year in 2019 didn't look good either. He was never a great passer, but throw in the running and he was really effective. Until he wasn't.

 

As for variance and three five TD games, that's how stats work. Throw out the best three games and you can make just about any season look much more average. Throw out Josh's three highest TD games last year and he only threw 19 TDs in a 17 game season. He must suck. Again, throw out the best three games in Josh's 2022 and he only had 24 passing TDs. It's just how stats work. Yes, Cam had a lot of passing TDs that year, way above his average, but he was feared for a reason, he was a good productive effective QB through most of his career, till he dropped off. But yeah, he never had another year as good as that 2015.

 

He's an interesting player. I'm glad you gave me a chance to go back and take a look.

[BillsVet]

 

4 hours ago, FireChans said:

Are we living on the same TBD? The narrative was obviously that Mahomes would struggle and “let’s see him without 2 HoF targets” lol

 

I remember making fun of people here who claimed KC was done after trading Hill.  With Mahomes, Kelce, and yeah, even Reid that was absurd.    

 

KC then invested part of the money saved from not paying Hill on Juju and some other receivers.  And then won the SB.  

 

It's kinda like the people who pronounced KC done when they lost their starting multiple OLinemen from their 2020 bad OL ...and then picked up Joe Thuney and Orlando Brown at the start of UFA.  

[BillsVet]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

“Look, this game, it’s so hard to be good year in and year out and you just more than anything you have to have a roster that can handle the physicality of this game and the injuries. ... So when we thought about this opportunity long and hard and to infuse not just the picks but the cap space over the next few years, it just made a lot of sense to us and I think it worked out for both."

 

"We’re gonna have a lot of young guys play football for us this fall. There is going to be a transition period. But after the draft ended and from the time they’ve been here through the rookie minicamp, we’ve been certainly impressed with them and their attitudes."

 

Both of those quotes are Brett Veach after trading Tyreek Hill in the 2022 offseason. 2022 was supposed to be a transition year for them and they were not good a lot of the year. But they bucked the trend, their rookies balled out, they got a bit of luck with the Damar situation giving them homefield throughout the playoffs and Mahomes was clutch when they needed him to be.

 

Amazing how they led the league in points scored that season and a full point per game higher than the season before with Hill.  Maybe not as dominant, but still pretty good to win a SB for a transition year.  

 

Ironically, both KC and BUF have the same set-up with their HC's relationship to the GM.  In neither does the GM supervise the HC and the latter sets their vision for the roster.  KC, despite being somewhat cash poor, is still a better run organization than Buffalo.    

[PBF81]

6 hours ago, FireChans said:

That may be true. Calling them overrated after dismantling the 13-3 Cards and the beating the back to back SB team Seahawks is kinda wild though

 

Even the worst teams beat a good team or two many seasons.  The 1-15 Cowboys beat the 10-6 Skins as their only win in '89 I think it was.  

 

Otherwise, it's also wild calling a team that largely beat losing teams all season long with one of the easiest schedules in modern history as something other than overrated.  

 

It's arguable either way I suppose.  

 

The greater point is that Newton was a very average QB other than in a single season, and that season was carried by his three best career games against the two worst passing Ds in the league and the 25th ranked passing D, for 15 of his 35 TDs.  Newton was always a very average passer.  

 

The Panthers were a mixed bag under that coaching staff.  Hot 'n cold from one season to the next, never any consistency.  

 

 

Edited May 10 by PBF81

[FireChans]

Just now, PBF81 said:

 

Even the worst teams beat a good team or two many seasons.  The 1-15 Cowboys beat the 10-6 Skins as their only win in '89 I think it was.  

 

Otherwise, it's also wild calling a team that largely beat losing teams all season long with one of the easiest schedules in modern history as something other than overrated.  

 

It's arguable either way I suppose.  

 

 

Did those Cowboys do it in the NFCCG?

 

Like @GoBills808 said, the running joke that whole season was “the worst 15-1 team ever.” Yet they demolished  a 13-3 Cardinals team and then beat the two time defending NFC champion Seahawks. 
 

I wouldn’t categorize any team that made it to a SB and lost as “overrated.” I’d categorize them as one of the two teams that season that beat enough teams on their schedule to get to the Super Bowl. 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

No, I don't think so, although I really hadn't remembered as well as I thought I had. Obviously I hadn't been watching him and the Panthers as much as the Bills.

 

His dropoff didn't really come after 2015. More 2017 or 2018. You're right that particularly in passing TDs, 2015 was the standout year. Average overall? No, I'd say he had plenty of good years till about 2017 when his running started to drop off and his passing wasn't too far behind. In 2017 he had the rotator cuff. In 2018 the shoulder injury that reduced his performance at the end of the year and his Lisfranc injury year in 2019 didn't look good either. He was never a great passer, but throw in the running and he was really effective. Until he wasn't.

 

As for variance and three five TD games, that's how stats work. Throw out the best three games and you can make just about any season look much more average. Throw out Josh's three highest TD games last year and he only threw 19 TDs in a 17 game season. He must suck. Again, throw out the best three games in Josh's 2022 and he only had 24 passing TDs. It's just how stats work. Yes, Cam had a lot of passing TDs that year, way above his average, but he was feared for a reason, he was a good productive effective QB through most of his career, till he dropped off. But yeah, he never had another year as good as that 2015.

 

He's an interesting player. I'm glad you gave me a chance to go back and take a look.

 

We're not simply "throwing out three games ...", we're discounting them because they were the three best games of his career, his only three games with 5 passing TDs each.  

 

The difficulties come in that the teams against which that occurred, two were ranked DFL and 31st in passing D, which renders any performance less than stellar.  The other team had the 25th ranked passing D.  It just so happens that they all happened to be in the same season.  

 

Otherwise, and we can use varying metrics, but in terms of passing TD production, Newton has ranked accordingly; 

 

2011:  12th in TDs, 15th in Rating 

2012:  21st in TDs, 15th in Rating 

2013:  14th in TDs, 16th in Rating 

2014:  20th in TDs, 26th in Rating 

2015:  5th in TDs, 7th in Rating 

2016:  20th in TDs, 28th in Rating 

2017:  15th in TDs, 24th in Rating 

2018:  14th in TDs, 17th in Rating  

 

In his 13 other games against teams that weren't the two worst and one comparable, his per-season average in those games would also have placed him at 14th in TDs.  Even so, in 2015, in his proficiency metrics within that "remarkable" season were: 

 

27th in Compl. %

16th in Passing Yards 

12th in 1st Down production 

10th in Success%

26th in Sack%

23rd in Yards-per-Game

12th in Net Yards per Attempt  

 

The data suggest all but indisputably that Newton was always nothing more than an average QB, even in that 2015 season.  

 

 

20 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Did those Cowboys do it in the NFCCG?

 

Like @GoBills808 said, the running joke that whole season was “the worst 15-1 team ever.” Yet they demolished  a 13-3 Cardinals team and then beat the two time defending NFC champion Seahawks. 
 

I wouldn’t categorize any team that made it to a SB and lost as “overrated.” I’d categorize them as one of the two teams that season that beat enough teams on their schedule to get to the Super Bowl. 

 

OK

 

You have a point based upon scant data and you're immovable.  That's fine.  But there's no need to belabor the argument.  

 

It's also not particularly important.  

 

It's clear that both the Panthers under Rivera and our team under McD have both underachieved, perhaps them more so, particularly given some of the really standout talent on their team, but similarly in the playoffs.  

 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

3 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

So take Allen off the field and replace him with an average level QB and we still beat KC? We still beat the Chargers? We run all over the Cowboys? We come from behind vs Miami? Allen or the threat of Allen contributed to all of our wins. Newton playing like a below average QB is why Carolina didn't sustain success. You can only give this group so much credit for landing a single player. They have not been able to develop the roster even as well as they did almost 10 years ago. 

 

If I am to believe what is being sold in this thread than I would have to also know that Allen is criminally underrated. Underrated not just by the national media but by even Bills fans on TBD. Allen should be recognized as the alpha QB in today's game, even over Mahomes and perhaps by a wide margin.

 

Let's follow the logic laid out here.

 

1. Allen keeps the Bills contending year after year pretty much by himself because he hasn't been given the proper roster support by Beane and McDermott.

 

2. Mahomes, who everyone recognizes as the clear alpha QB in today's game, is surrounded by great talent and coaching over that same four year time period. Tyreek, GOAT tight end in Kelce, GOAT offensive coach in Reid, GOAT defensive coach in Spags and top 3 defensive player in the game today in Chris Jones. Just an absolute embarrassment of riches the KC ownership and GM have provided to Mahomes. Bravo. 

 

3. Despite the clear imbalance of riches between the two teams, Josh Allen, nearly by himself has managed to lead the Bills to the second most wins over that four year time period, trailing only the Chiefs. Josh Allen has gone a perfect 3-0 against the Chiefs and Mahomes in the last three regular season games and has played two nearly perfect playoff games against the Chiefs only to end up losing late due to circumstances largely out of his control. Literally one squib kick or one lucky bounce away from being 5-0 against the Chiefs and Mahomes in the last five contests between the two.

 

If all of the above is true, it's pretty clear who the alpha QB in today's game is. Or, more likely, the Bills roster these last four years has not been nearly as bad as some want to believe. 

 

[machine gun kelly]

On 5/9/2024 at 2:17 AM, GoBills808 said:

2015 Josh Norman is better than anything we've had secondary wise 

 

Absolute lockdown that season

Tre in his prime peor to the two injuries was just as good as Norman.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, machine gun kelly said:

Tre in his prime peor to the two injuries was just as good as Norman.

 

He was better. 

[PBF81]

8 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

If I am to believe what is being sold in this thread than I would have to also know that Allen is criminally underrated. Underrated not just by the national media but by even Bills fans on TBD. Allen should be recognized as the alpha QB in today's game, even over Mahomes and perhaps by a wide margin.

 

Let's follow the logic laid out here.

 

1. Allen keeps the Bills contending year after year pretty much by himself because he hasn't been given the proper roster support by Beane and McDermott.

 

2. Mahomes, who everyone recognizes as the clear alpha QB in today's game, is surrounded by great talent and coaching over that same four year time period. Tyreek, GOAT tight end in Kelce, GOAT offensive coach in Reid, GOAT defensive coach in Spags and top 3 defensive player in the game today in Chris Jones. Just an absolute embarrassment of riches the KC ownership and GM have provided to Mahomes. Bravo. 

 

3. Despite the clear imbalance of riches between the two teams, Josh Allen, nearly by himself has managed to lead the Bills to the second most wins over that four year time period, trailing only the Chiefs. Josh Allen has gone a perfect 3-0 against the Chiefs and Mahomes in the last three regular season games and has played two nearly perfect playoff games against the Chiefs only to end up losing late due to circumstances largely out of his control. Literally one squib kick or one lucky bounce away from being 5-0 against the Chiefs and Mahomes in the last five contests between the two.

 

If all of the above is true, it's pretty clear who the alpha QB in today's game is. Or, more likely, the Bills roster these last four years has not been nearly as bad as some want to believe. 

 

 

You missed one simple thing.  

 

Absolutely no one in our team besides Allen has consistently stepped up in the playoffs, not one player, as in zero.  

 

Since our primary problem isn't getting to the playoffs, aka not the regular season, it's our postseason performance in that regard, and where our defense folds and underachieves more often than not, what is the explanation for that in your assessment?  

 

Allen's a what, top-2 QB?  There aren't many, if any, top 5 or 6 QBs watching the playoffs come January.  

 

It's not difficult for teams with to QBs to simply make the playoffs today unless they have zero defense and few skill position players.  This past season the top 8 yardage and top 6 TD QBs all made the playoffs.  

 

 

[TH3]

On 5/9/2024 at 12:19 AM, Mikie2times said:

Dorsey was the QB coach, McD was the defensive coordinator, Beane was Assistant GM. They went to the Super Bowl that year losing to the Broncos.  Looking at the roster two thing concerned me. They seem to be constructed in similar fashion as we have been. Specifically the WR neglect seems pretty apparent in the make up of both teams.  They seem to be MUCH more talented than any version of the Bills we have seen thus far. It's nearly at every position. Beane has had a good amount of time working on our roster. This was a very good Carolina team but I don't like that it appears we have a deficit against them in nearly every position.

 

QB - This was Cams MVP season, but still would rather have Josh

 

Cam Newton

 

 

RB - Both went to the Pro Bowl that year, Stewart was actually a really good back at that time. This is close but nod to Carolina. 

 

Jonathan Stewart 

Mike Tolbert  

 

WR - It's possible our current WR room is better than the one they fielded in 2015 🤢. Ginn was very explosive but nobody had over 750 yards. Our WR units have been better the last few years which is really concerning as far as how Beane views the position. 

 

Ted Ginn Jr

Jerricho Cotchery

Devin Funchess

Corey Brown

 

TE - Olson was an absolute monster. Very high hopes for Kincaid but hard to put him in Olson's class at this stage

 

Greg Olson

 

OL- Two all pros and Michael Oher. Nod to Carolina

 

T Michael Oher

LG Andrew Norwell

C Ryan Kalil

RG Trai Turner

RT Mike Remmers

 

DL - Short was a pro bowler. This was the young version of Star. I would say DL is pretty close.

 

DE  Charles Johnson

DT Star Lotulelei

DT Kawann Short

DE Jared Allen

 

LB - One of the best LB cores of the decade. Not close. 

 

Shaq Thompson

Luke Kuechly

Thomas Davis

 

DB - When we had pre injury Tre and younger Poyer and Hyde we probably get that nod. That unit hasn't been intact for a bit though. 

 

CB Charles Tillman

CB Josh Norman

SS Roman Harper

FS Kurt Coleman

So you don’t like our roster…is that your point?

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

59 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

You missed one simple thing.  

 

Absolutely no one in our team besides Allen has consistently stepped up in the playoffs, not one player, as in zero.  

 

Since our primary problem isn't getting to the playoffs, aka not the regular season, it's our postseason performance in that regard, and where our defense folds and underachieves more often than not, what is the explanation for that in your assessment?  

 

Allen's a what, top-2 QB?  There aren't many, if any, top 5 or 6 QBs watching the playoffs come January.  

 

It's not difficult for teams with to QBs to simply make the playoffs today unless they have zero defense and few skill position players.  This past season the top 8 yardage and top 6 TD QBs all made the playoffs.  

 

 

I don’t disagree with the larger point that the defense has greatly underachieved, particularly once it reaches the divisional round.

 

what exactly are you supposed to do as a GM here? Blow it all up because of poor results in a small sample size of postseason games compared to great results over a much larger sample size in the regular season? The disastrous defense in the postseason has been a huge problem, no doubt. But the solution isn’t so simple. 

 

but you’re also only talking about one side of the ball here. Did the offense underachieve in the 13 second game? Even in this most recent loss to KC they scored what 24 points against what was a very good Chiefs defense? Believe the 24 points was the most the Chiefs gave up all postseason last year.

 

i’d say the punch out to cause the touchback and save a touchdown was as big a play as any in the game. Just as big as Jones rush against Dawkins.

[Mister Defense]

On 5/9/2024 at 12:19 AM, Mikie2times said:

Dorsey was the QB coach, McD was the defensive coordinator, Beane was Assistant GM. They went to the Super Bowl that year losing to the Broncos.  Looking at the roster two thing concerned me. They seem to be constructed in similar fashion as we have been. Specifically the WR neglect seems pretty apparent in the make up of both teams.  They seem to be MUCH more talented than any version of the Bills we have seen thus far. It's nearly at every position. Beane has had a good amount of time working on our roster. This was a very good Carolina team but I don't like that it appears we have a deficit against them in nearly every position.

 

 

 

Did anyone else laugh out loud at t how ridiculous this post was!?

 

I could not imagine almost anyone looking at the two rosters, and also having seen both teams play, come to your laughable, and frankly bizarre take--that the 2015 Panthers were "MUCH more talented than any version of the Bills we have seen thus far". 

 

But then I read  the line, "Beane has had a good amount of time working on our roster" and realized you are simply a hater, so will, like the others, just spew out nonsense to fit your irrational narrative. (In the future could you please state your hate as your first line--so readers know what is coming, so could save themselves some time and just skip the post?)

 

And then you end with "This was a very good Carolina team but I don't like that it appears we have a deficit against them in nearly every position."

 

Why on earth would you be concerned with how the Bills stack up to, of all teams, the 2015 Panthers??

 

To almost any objective observer, almost any version of this Bills team over the last 5 years would not only stack up well against that one shot wonder, but would clean their clocks in almost any game. But  somehow you see that team as not just better, but "MUCH more talented" and at nearly every position!  (I just giggled like a school girl again when I wrote hat line!)

 

Don't let your hate get in the way of the actual reality.

 

No objective Bills fan would ever think that one year aberration was even in the same category as our current Bills team, which has been a serious and legitimate championship contender for years...

 

But thanks for the laughs on this Friday!

 

Edited May 10 by Mister Defense

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

I don’t disagree with the larger point that the defense has greatly underachieved, particularly once it reaches the divisional round.

 

what exactly are you supposed to do as a GM here? Blow it all up because of poor results in a small sample size of postseason games compared to great results over a much larger sample size in the regular season? The disastrous defense in the postseason has been a huge problem, no doubt. But the solution isn’t so simple. 

 

but you’re also only talking about one side of the ball here. Did the offense underachieve in the 13 second game? Even in this most recent loss to KC they scored what 24 points against what was a very good Chiefs defense? Believe the 24 points was the most the Chiefs gave up all postseason last year.

 

i’d say the punch out to cause the touchback and save a touchdown was as big a play as any in the game. Just as big as Jones rush against Dawkins.

 

No real argument with most of that although the Packers put up 27 offensive and Denver matched our 24.  

 

In terms of yards gained, 1st-Downs achieved, and passing yards, we were very much in the middle of the stack vs. KC.  In rushing we were low-end against them.  There wasn't a lot of garbage time in most of KC's games either.  

 

But given what you said, you seem to imply that if there's a fault in our greater system, that it's on Beane, which is quite possible, t least partially.  

 

But given what you said, is there anything else that you would consider that might be an issue in the causation of that all?

 

 

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

We're not simply "throwing out three games ...", we're discounting them because they were the three best games of his career, his only three games with 5 passing TDs each.  

 

The difficulties come in that the teams against which that occurred, two were ranked DFL and 31st in passing D, which renders any performance less than stellar.  The other team had the 25th ranked passing D.  It just so happens that they all happened to be in the same season.  

 

Otherwise, and we can use varying metrics, but in terms of passing TD production, Newton has ranked accordingly; 

 

2011:  12th in TDs, 15th in Rating 

2012:  21st in TDs, 15th in Rating 

2013:  14th in TDs, 16th in Rating 

2014:  20th in TDs, 26th in Rating 

2015:  5th in TDs, 7th in Rating 

2016:  20th in TDs, 28th in Rating 

2017:  15th in TDs, 24th in Rating 

2018:  14th in TDs, 17th in Rating  

 

In his 13 other games against teams that weren't the two worst and one comparable, his per-season average in those games would also have placed him at 14th in TDs.  Even so, in 2015, in his proficiency metrics within that "remarkable" season were: 

 

27th in Compl. %

16th in Passing Yards 

12th in 1st Down production 

10th in Success%

26th in Sack%

23rd in Yards-per-Game

12th in Net Yards per Attempt  

 

The data suggest all but indisputably that Newton was always nothing more than an average QB, even in that 2015 season.  

 

 

 

 

I see. You're not throwing them out. You're "discounting" them. 

 

You do know those two are essentially synonyms, right? They both mean that some statistics don't fit your vision, they're harmful to your argument, so you don't want to be inconvenienced by them so you're not going to use them. You're absolutely throwing them out. And again, doing so is simply illegitimate in any context but a context where you also throw out the best three games of every other QB. You're not doing that, and for the obvious reason that it would hurt your narrative. 

 

More, those aren't particularly the best three games in his career, except for in terms of TDs. The next year, 2016, he had a game with more yards than any of those three, and four TDs. In 2017 two games where he outgained those three games you are talking about and put up 3 TDs each time. In 2018 two more, each one with 3 TDs. And those are only in the years after 2015.

 

You haven't got a single legit argument there for throwing them out. Beyond the fact that it suits you, that is. Again, every QB is going to tend to do well against poorer teams. And with every team playing 12 teams a year back then and 13 now, you'll play some crappy teams. This is just how statistics work, precisely what happens when you have football teams run through schedules against each other. They'll play some good teams and bad ones. They'll tend overall to do better against the bad teams. Each team will play some bad teams, and to "discount" by not considering the games against bad teams from one team will show nothing beyond the fact that you have some reason to make them want to look bad.

 

You seem to have forgotten to include all of Cam's running stats. And they're a big part of his effectiveness.

 

Your last group of stats there, where you throw out again his good games and pretend you're showing something useful ... again, it shows more about you than about Cam. You're making this bad argument even more bald-facedly. You take out his best three games. And then you try to use the resulting stats in rankings, rankings against QBs for whom you used all of their games, leaving their best games in, of course. Again, that shows far more about how far you'll go to make this argument than it does about Cam.

 

He was never a great passer. But a pretty good one, (until he wasn't any more) who like Josh multiplied his productivity and effectiveness by being a run threat on every play.

 

The OLs he played with were not very good, changing year after year, and the best one was absolutely 2015, though even then Remmers was a major weakness at tackle. Newton covered up a lot of below-average OL play during his tenure. Till the injuries ate away his effectiveness and dependability.

[PBF81]

2 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I see. You're not throwing them out. You're "discounting" them. 

 

You do know those two are essentially synonyms, right? They both mean that some statistics don't fit your vision, they're harmful to your argument, so you don't want to be inconvenienced by them so you're not going to use them. You're absolutely throwing them out. And again, doing so is simply illegitimate in any context but a context where you also throw out the best three games of every other QB. You're not doing that, and for the obvious reason that it would hurt your narrative. 

 

More, those aren't particularly the best three games in his career, except for in terms of TDs. The next year, 2016, he had a game with more yards than any of those three, and four TDs. In 2017 two games where he outgained those three games you are talking about and put up 3 TDs each time. In 2018 two more, each one with 3 TDs. And those are only in the years after 2015.

 

You haven't got a single legit argument there for throwing them out. Beyond the fact that it suits you, that is. Again, every QB is going to tend to do well against poorer teams. And with every team playing 12 teams a year back then and 13 now, you'll play some crappy teams. This is just how statistics work, precisely what happens when you have football teams run through schedules against each other. They'll play some good teams and bad ones. They'll tend overall to do better against the bad teams. Each team will play some bad teams, and to "discount" by not considering the games against bad teams from one team will show nothing beyond the fact that you have some reason to make them want to look bad.

 

You seem to have forgotten to include all of Cam's running stats. And they're a big part of his effectiveness.

 

Your last group of stats there, where you throw out again his good games and pretend you're showing something useful ... again, it shows more about you than about Cam. You're making this bad argument even more bald-facedly. You take out his best three games. And then you try to use the resulting stats in rankings, rankings against QBs for whom you used all of their games, leaving their best games in, of course. Again, that shows far more about how far you'll go to make this argument than it does about Cam.

 

He was never a great passer. But a pretty good one, (until he wasn't any more) who like Josh multiplied his productivity and effectiveness by being a run threat on every play.

 

The OLs he played with were not very good, changing year after year, and the best one was absolutely 2015, though even then Remmers was a major weakness at tackle. Newton covered up a lot of below-average OL play during his tenure. Till the injuries ate away his effectiveness and dependability.

 

Well, OK, of that's something more in your book than average passing, great, so be it.  

 

Similarly however, if three games out of 144 against dreadful Ds are what is required to prove that a QB is above average, isn't that the same thing.  

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Either way, let's chalk it up to different standards.  

 

 

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

You missed one simple thing.  

 

Absolutely no one in our team besides Allen has consistently stepped up in the playoffs, not one player, as in zero.  

 

Since our primary problem isn't getting to the playoffs, aka not the regular season, it's our postseason performance in that regard, and where our defense folds and underachieves more often than not, what is the explanation for that in your assessment?  

 

Allen's a what, top-2 QB?  There aren't many, if any, top 5 or 6 QBs watching the playoffs come January.  

 

It's not difficult for teams with to QBs to simply make the playoffs today unless they have zero defense and few skill position players.  This past season the top 8 yardage and top 6 TD QBs all made the playoffs.  

 

 

 

 

Just picking one, Milano was terrific in that playoff game against Cincy. He's consistently been good in the playoffs and sometimes very good. Another off the top of my head, Taron Johnson was very good consistently in the playoffs.

 

And Allen had some bad playoff games. His first, for one, against Houston, but also the first Kansas City loss was OK but far from great. The Cincy game too was not great at all, though almost the whole team was bad, really.

 

Generally, it hasn't been our playoff performance that's been bad. It's been our playoff performance against Kansas City, where we've generally been good but not quite good enough. Also the awful Cincy game.

 

As for your QB point, plenty of arguably top six QBs have had problems making the playoffs consistently. Top yardage and top 6 TD QBs aren't necessarily the best QBs, they're the most productive that year, which often means they're surrounded well by good teams, including good defenses that get them the ball oftener and in better position. How many times did Stafford make the playoffs before he got a good team around him in L.A.? Philip Rivers was terrific, but had on and off teams around him and on and off playoff attendance. Herbert? When Ryan had good teams around him he generally looked close to the top six.

 

 

[Thurman#1]

29 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well, OK, of that's something more in your book than average passing, great, so be it.  

 

Similarly however, if three games out of 144 against dreadful Ds are what is required to prove that a QB is above average, isn't that the same thing.  

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Either way, let's chalk it up to different standards.  

 

 

 

 

You've missed the point again with the three games. 

 

Those three games you referred to were NOT what is required to prove that a QB is above average. The same thing can be said about every QB. Take his top three games out of any season and he will look much worse particuarly when you then take those vivisected thirteen game numbers and try to compare them against all the other QBs sixteen game stats.

 

That ... is ... how ... stats ... work.

 

And yet again you want to leave Newton's running out of the picture for exactly the obvious reasons. Newton's runs made him a ton more effective and a ton more productive. You can't isolate Newton's passing numbers, ignore the runs and pretend you are fairly evaluating Cam Newton as a QB. You aren't.