Nextmanup Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 On 1/24/2024 at 7:59 PM, Ya Digg? said: Made it to the playoffs once You are evaluating a player with a team statistic. Herbert is huge, has a great arm, and can run. That's why he's highly regarded. Under better coaching he will flourish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Jimmy G and Brock are not even in the same league. CJ Beathard and Nick Mullens never looked good, I don't get this notion. And I don't buy they wouldn't be in the league without Shannahan when guys like Nathan Peterman hung around the league. The CJ Beathards and Nick Mullens of the world hang around the league all the time. And how can you say "he is top 15 guy" but playing at an MVP level because of Shannahan? There is no Pre-Shannahan period to establish what he is or isn't outside of Shannahan. All we have seen is him play at an MVP level in his first full season something no other QB in the past 7 years in SF has done or come close to doing. And as I showed before, Kyle and his QB expertise are grossly exaggerated. He passed on Mahomes, Watson, and Lamar when they badly needed a QB and instead rolled with guys like CJ Bethard and Nick Mullens. He passed up signing Tom Brady, Geno Smith (3 different seasons), and didn't pull the trigger on Stafford all to stick with Jimmy G. They invested 3 first rounders into Trey Lance just to have him unseated by Mr. Irrelevant because he couldn't develop him. Until Purdy came along, his entire tenure in SF since 2017 had been a total failure at QB. His track record with QB's and QB decisions in SF has not been good, and the lack of a QB is why they don't have 2 to 3 SB titles since he got there. IRT the bolded, to me, that's irrelevant. I'm not saying Shanahan is a some QB guru who is great at finding good QB's. I'm saying that his offense is to limited passing QB's what Greg Roman's offense is to limited running QB's. Put another way, you give Jimmy G the Shanahan system with talent, and he looks like a franchise QB in this league. You give it to Nick Mullens or Beathard, and they look like guys who are pretty good backups. You give to Matt Ryan and he's the MVP and sets records. It's the same thing with Roman's system. You give it to Tyrod, he looks solid. You give it to Kaepernick, and he looks really good. You give it to Lamar, and he's the MVP and sets records. That's not a perfect analogy and probably a bit too simple, but imo his system is the rising tide that raises all ships. None of that has anything to do with Shanahan's ability to find a franchise QB. In fact, that's Shanny's Achilles' heel. It's why they have a team that's top to bottom better than ours, but our guys found Josh Allen and they went for Trey Lance, which is why despite them having 7 All-Pros they have zero chips just like us. Here's another little piece of info from last year: W/L: 4-0 Pass YD: 231/game Comp %: 72.8 Pass TD: 1.75/game (7 in 4 games) INT: 0 RTG: 113.4 QBR: 73.1 W/L: 6-0 Pass YD: 218/game Comp %: 69.3 Pass TD: 2.16/game (13 over 6 games) INT: 0.5 (3 over 6 games) RTG: 115 QBR: 65.9 Do you know those two QB's? One of them is Jimmy G in SF with CMC and the other is Brock Purdy in SF with CMC last season. So while we don't have info on who Brock Purdy is without Shanahan, we do have info on a guy we can all agree was really a fringe franchise QB and in that system, Brock's numbers are really only moderately better. IRT CJ Beathard never looked good, he had 3400 yards 22 total TD's to 13 INT's in his SF career in 12 starts and 19 games total including spot duty. Do you think those numbers are an accurate reflection of CJ Beathard's skill as an NFL QB, or do you think his production was pumped up by a system built to give QB's training wheels? To me, the answer is very much the latter. CJ hasn't seen much time since, but if he started 17 games in Jacksonville next year, would he put up 3400 yards and 22 TD's? I doubt it. And the final rub is yes, Purdy is a great story. He has MVP numbers. If he was the first overall pick, he would be the hottest QB in the league. That's all true. But he wasn't the first overall pick for a reason. He does, IMO, have limitations, he does make a significant amount of mistakes, and despite having a great season, he's had moments where he's played closer to his draft status than MVP when he's missing just 1 of his many All-Pros. Suffice it to say, I think Purdy is closer to Mac Jones than he is to Josh Allen or Mahomes, for nothing more than I've watched him play. I like him, he does his job in that system, he is sneaky athletic, he's generally lucky or otherwise safe in regards to turnovers, and I'll be rooting for him this weekend. Really what it comes down to, is do you think Purdy would be the fifth or higher most paid QB in the NFL if they were all FA's tomorrow. I don't think he would be, which is why despite his MVP season, he ain't elite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beebe Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 (edited) Josh's playoff wins have come against the likes of retiring Phillip Rivers, Skylar Thompson, Mac Jones, Mason Rudolph and playoff choker Lamar. All of them were at home, with the Bills being the superior team or vastly superior. They were 10-point favorites vs Pitt, 14-point favorites vs Miami, 5-point favorites vs New England, 7-point favorites vs Indy and 3-point favorites vs Baltimore. The losses have come against Mahomes three times, Watson and Burrow. Football is a team game, and I hate how QB focused everything is these days. But at some point, you really do have to actually win something. Allen is 5-5 in the playoffs. As great as he was vs New England in the Wild Card round in 2021, his three turnovers in the Dolphins playoff game in 2022 put that game in peril vs a third-string QB. As good as he was in the 13 seconds game, he stunk in the 2020 AFC title game vs the Chiefs, and was equally ineffective in the playoff loss to the Bengals. In the Texans loss, the Bills scored a TD on their opening drive and then didn't score another touchdown the rest of the game (blowing a 16-0 lead in the process). This year vs the Chiefs, he had his team 1st-10 at the 27 yd line, with a chance at a walk off win, and he advanced his team only 1 yard closer before settling for a 44 yd field goal. Mahomes has won more playoff games (6) in the last 13 months than Allen has won in his entire career (5). Mahomes has six AFC title games in six years, 4 super bowl appearances, 2 super bowl wins (with a third possible in two weeks), and has beaten the Bills all three times in the postseason. Some people act like Mahomes is only good because he has Andy Reid, but last I checked, Andy Reid made one Super Bowl his first 19 years in the league, and has made four in six years since he got a unicorn at QB. The people that rate Mahomes as inferior to Allen are living in fantasy land. Edited January 30 by beebe 1 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st pete gogolak Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 7 minutes ago, beebe said: Josh's playoff wins have come against the likes of retiring Phillip Rivers, Skylar Thompson, Mac Jones, Mason Rudolph and playoff choker Lamar. All of them were at home, with the Bills being the superior team or vastly superior. They were 10-point favorites vs Pitt, 14-point favorites vs Miami, 5-point favorites vs New England, 7-point favorites vs Indy and 3-point favorites vs Baltimore. The losses have come against Mahomes three times, Watson and Burrow. Football is a team game, and I hate how QB focused everything is these days. But at some point, you really do have to actually win something. Allen is 5-5 in the playoffs. As great as he was vs New England in the Wild Card round in 2021, his three turnovers in the Dolphins playoff game in 2022 put that game in peril vs a third-string QB. As good as he was in the 13 seconds game, he stunk in the 2020 AFC title game vs the Chiefs, and was equally ineffective in the playoff loss to the Bengals. In the Texans loss, the Bills scored a TD on their opening drive and then didn't score another touchdown the rest of the game (blowing a 16-0 lead in the process). This year vs the Chiefs, he had his team 1st-10 at the 27 yd line, with a chance at a walk off win, and he advanced his team only 1 yard closer before settling for a 44 yd field goal. Mahomes has won more playoff games (6) in the last 13 months than Allen has won in his entire career (5). Mahomes has six AFC title games in six years, 4 super bowl appearances, 2 super bowl wins (with a third possible in two weeks), and has beaten the Bills all three times in the postseason. Some people act like Mahomes is only good because he has Andy Reid, but last I checked, Andy Reid made one Super Bowl his first 19 years in the league, and has made four in six years since he got a unicorn at QB. The people that rate Mahomes as inferior to Allen are living in fantasy land. So, let’s say Mahomes is traded straight up for Allen this offseason. Bills win the Super Bowl next year, right? Allen’s playoff numbers are great. In the last four playoff losses, the numbers for the Bills’s defense are staggeringly bad. If Allen and Mahomes had traded places five years ago, Allen would have a couple of rings and Mahomes wouldn’t have any. Mahomes may be better than Allen but the difference isn’t a gulf, it’s a puddle. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beebe Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 (edited) 5 minutes ago, st pete gogolak said: So, let’s say Mahomes is traded straight up for Allen this offseason. Bills win the Super Bowl next year, right? Allen’s playoff numbers are great. In the last four playoff losses, the numbers for the Bills’s defense are staggeringly bad. If Allen and Mahomes had traded places five years ago, Allen would have a couple of rings and Mahomes wouldn’t have any. Mahomes may be better than Allen but the difference isn’t a gulf, it’s a puddle. Mahomes would have taken the Bills to the Super Bowl this year, and for sure would have taken at least two previous iterations of the Bills to the Super Bowl. In part because he wouldn't be playing against Mahomes! The Bills D has been 'staggeringly bad' in part because they played Mahomes three times! Edited January 30 by beebe 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Digg? Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 13 minutes ago, Nextmanup said: You are evaluating a player with a team statistic. Herbert is huge, has a great arm, and can run. That's why he's highly regarded. Under better coaching he will flourish. That’s very true I am-but it’s the same standard every other QB in the league is held to. What’s been the conversation about Josh the last week plus - That he chokes in the playoffs. Obviously we all know better but at least Josh is making it to the playoffs to get that criticism. Like I said in my post I get it and I see it, he’s talented, but somehow he is not held to the same standard of scrutiny and criticism that other QBs are. If you look at the lists that everyone is putting out, all of the QBs (besides Stroud) have been in the playoffs multiple times….except for Herbert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyBillsFan Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 7 minutes ago, beebe said: Mahomes would have taken the Bills to the Super Bowl this year, and for sure would have taken at least two previous iterations of the Bills to the Super Bowl. In part because he wouldn't be playing against Mahomes! I disagree 100%. Do you think that the Bills defense would have held the Ravens to 3 points for two and a half quarters like the Chiefs did yesterday? And if Allen was on the Chiefs what do you think he would have done to the Bills defense two weeks ago? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paup 1995MVP Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 On 1/24/2024 at 8:08 PM, chongli said: 1. Mahomes 2. Jackson 3. Burrow 4. Allen 5. Rodgers 6. Herbert 7. Hurts 8. Stroud 9. Love 10. (tie) Prescott, Lawrence, Stafford Where is Goff? I will take him over Hurts Dak and Lawrence every day of the week. Herbert has done nothing. He is a baby B word who just loses. And Josh blows Lamar away. Stop watching ESPN. Where is Jameis Winston? Guy is a gamer. The black Fitzie. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chongli Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 3 minutes ago, Paup 1995MVP said: Where is Goff? I will take him over Hurts Dak and Lawrence every day of the week. Herbert has done nothing. He is a baby B word who just loses. And Josh blows Lamar away. Stop watching ESPN. Where is Jameis Winston? Guy is a gamer. The black Fitzie. Winston? Seriously? How many games did he start this year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beebe Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 (edited) 30 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said: I disagree 100%. Do you think that the Bills defense would have held the Ravens to 3 points for two and a half quarters like the Chiefs did yesterday? And if Allen was on the Chiefs what do you think he would have done to the Bills defense two weeks ago? The Bills D isn't as bad as they're being portrayed. Last I checked, they had essentially full access to their defensive line vs the Chiefs (Daquan Jones returned a week prior), they had their two starting safeties (Hyde and Poyer) and their two best CBs (Douglas and Johnson). Bernard was the biggest notable absence, and the Chiefs took advantage of Klein no doubt. But Mahomes/Kelce ran circles around the elite Ravens D, and I've seen them run circles around elite and fully healthy Bills defenses of the past (with Milano and Edmunds on the field). I don't know why it's assumed the Chiefs wouldn't have torched McDermott's fully healthy D in the playoffs this time just like they did the prior two times, and I don't know why it's assumed the Bills wouldn't have slowed the Ravens. The Bills D has been plenty good the last 4 years including in the playoffs except for when they play the Chiefs, or another elite QB like Burrow (in the snow). The Chiefs lost their best safety Bryan Cook to injury in early December, his replacement at safety Mike Edwards exited the first defensive series with concussion vs the Bills. The Chiefs had to roll the entire game with 4th-round rookie Chamarri Conner, who ultimately played a career-high (by far) 76 snaps vs the Bills. The Chiefs' best LB Willie Gay exited early with injury vs Bills (he was supposed to be the spy on Allen all day). The Chiefs were already without their best run-stuffing DL Derrick Nnadi. The way it's portrayed, you would think the Bills had a full roster of backups on the field. Edited January 30 by beebe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st pete gogolak Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 49 minutes ago, beebe said: Mahomes would have taken the Bills to the Super Bowl this year, and for sure would have taken at least two previous iterations of the Bills to the Super Bowl. In part because he wouldn't be playing against Mahomes! The Bills D has been 'staggeringly bad' in part because they played Mahomes three times! Can’t tell anymore. Is this sarcasm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beebe Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 (edited) 8 minutes ago, st pete gogolak said: Can’t tell anymore. Is this sarcasm? Buffalo's D in playoffs: vs Texans - 5.5 yards per play allowed vs Colts - 6.2 yards per play allowed vs Ravens - 4.7 yards per play allowed vs Chiefs - 6.9 yards per play allowed vs Patriots - 5 yards per play allowed vs Chiefs - 7.6 yards per play allowed vs Dolphins - 3.3 yards per play allowed vs Bengals - 5.8 yards per play allowed vs Steelers - 5.1 yards per play allowed vs Chiefs - 7.7 yards per play allowed Bills D vs non Chiefs: 5.0 yards per play allowed Bills vs Chiefs: 7.4 yards per play allowed The three worst playoff performances by Buffalo's D have all come against Mahomes and the Chiefs. They gave up 38 points and 36 points with fully loaded healthy defenses in prior years - defenses that rated out as top 5 units in the league. I'm not sure why Bernard's presence instead of Klein would have dramatically changed the calculus here. Edited January 30 by beebe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 4 minutes ago, beebe said: Buffalo's D in playoffs: vs Texans - 5.5 yards per play allowed vs Colts - 6.2 yards per play allowed vs Ravens - 4.7 yards per play allowed vs Chiefs - 6.9 yards per play allowed vs Patriots - 5 yards per play allowed vs Chiefs - 7.6 yards per play allowed vs Dolphins - 3.3 yards per play allowed vs Bengals - 5.8 yards per play allowed vs Steelers - 5.1 yards per play allowed vs Chiefs - 7.7 yards per play allowed Bills D vs non Chiefs: 5.0 yards per play allowed Bills vs Chiefs: 7.4 yards per play allowed The three worst playoff performances by Buffalo's D have all come against Mahomes and the Chiefs. They gave up 38 points and 36 points with fully loaded healthy defenses in prior years - defenses that rated out as top 5 units in the league. I'm not sure why Bernard's presence instead of Klein would have dramatically changed the calculus here. It’s almost like he’s the greatest QB in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy1 Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 Mahomes is great. In addition to his crazy good talent though, he is surrounded by an incredible organization with a Hall of Fame TE target. Their GM is one of the best in the league at identifying talent in the draft. Andy Reid and Spags are tops in their profession. All of that is what makes Mahomes and KC great. Coordinators leaving hasn’t impacted their team performance. it’s a tall, tall task for any team to match them as they continually rebuild their team each year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beebe Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 Just now, FireChans said: It’s almost like he’s the greatest QB in the game. That's been my thesis, but somehow it gets pushback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 1 minute ago, beebe said: That's been my thesis, but somehow it gets pushback. Folks used to call Brady a system QB, it was all Belichick, he's just lucky, etc etc. Really, the admission that Brady is the GOAT only happened here in Bills land after he left New England and stopped being our boogeyman. Now, they are afraid to say Mahomes is the best because he's our new boogeyman. 1 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 6 minutes ago, beebe said: That's been my thesis, but somehow it gets pushback. Here's a wonderful topic in 2019!!!!! Folks twisting themselves into knots that the 6 time SB champion (at the time) wasn't that important. Lmao. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsatlastin2018 Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 1. Mahomes 2. Allen 3. Burrow 4. Jackson 5. Herbert 6. Stroud 7. Love 8. Purdy. 9. Rodgers I don’t expect him to return anywhere near what he was- at his age. 10. Hurts Etc. Prescott, Stafford, Mayfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy1 Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 While I think Josh can match Mahomes at the talent level, I’m not sure if the Bills organization can support him to the same level the Chiefs do for Mahomes. I’m talking about finding talent, coaching, O and D game planning and game day strategy and play calling. Brady has to match wits with Spags for us to be successful. Eventually the injury bug should bite them and then maybe then we will be able to get by them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 15 minutes ago, FireChans said: Folks used to call Brady a system QB, it was all Belichick, he's just lucky, etc etc. Really, the admission that Brady is the GOAT only happened here in Bills land after he left New England and stopped being our boogeyman. Now, they are afraid to say Mahomes is the best because he's our new boogeyman. And KC is the new NE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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