Fan in Chicago Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 14 minutes ago, Beck Water said: Apologies, but I'm not going to wade through the thread to find it. It really doesn't depend upon the "extent to which injury has affected his play lately". No NFL player's agent worth his salt is going to accept a falloff in skill on the part of his player when many other things can legit contribute - offensive scheme, quality of pass protection, usage, inaccurate throws from the QB. Diggs is currently a top-10 receiver in the league for receptions. His agents will argue he can't control how he is being used (all those stupid screens that don't work) or the accuracy of his QB's throws. They're not gonna go with "hey, he's being paid like a #5 but producing like a #15 for yards so sure, we'll take a salary cut we don't have to take". You don't have to dig back. I have already backed off on my initial suggestion to ask him for a paycut. So, there isnt anything for you and I to argue about. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEpsYtown Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Just now, Mr. WEO said: Davis at 4 seasons has only 600 fewer yards, more TDs than Samuel at 7. He'[s had one career season over 700 yards. Davis has had 2 in 4. The guy isn't in any way an upgrade over Davis. He's not even an upgrade over Shakir. This would be the typical dumb Bills WR off-season WR move: nearly dead Beasley/John Brown, Crowder, Sanders, Andre Roberts, Duke Williams, Kelvin Benjamin.. Just an endless stream of bums passing though. no thanks I think it is a fair argument. I am thinking about the offense overall. I think Davis has his ups and downs, but he isn't special and I think you can replace his production with mid-round guys. I like that he is big, but he doesn't play big. Maybe that can develop over time. Samuel isn't special either, but his speed is his standout trait that we don't have on the roster. I'd give him the money over Davis. I don't think they will be able to afford a Tee Higgins type. So wading into the next tier and Samuel makes sense to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: I know it's popular around here to invent or postulate injuries for when players start to hit the tank, but you're making that up. McD denied this was the case just yesterday when directly asked. "making that up" implies I am stating that as a fact. I am not. I said "leads me to believe" which means i see his history and cannot believe that he suddenly declined mid-season. Also, you dont know for sure that he is not injured. McD is not going to state that and tip the upcoming opposition. We will know for sure in the offseason. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vtnatefootball11 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 On 1/2/2024 at 2:23 AM, Aussie Joe said: I’m not arguing otherwise Is a good one going to be available though when they pick? we will see And they won’t be able to move up either Why the heck not? They damn well better move up if that's what takes to get one of the consensus top 5-6 receivers (assuming they like the guy). There certainly won't be 6 receivers taken in the top 15. If it can be had without costing a first round pick in 2025, it's an absolute must no hesitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 6 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said: You don't have to dig back. I have already backed off on my initial suggestion to ask him for a paycut. So, there isnt anything for you and I to argue about. Oh, C'mon. With a 53 man roster, practice squad, 32 teams in the league, and a Win-and-In game that's essentially "Win or Go Home", SURELY we can find something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 3 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said: I think it is a fair argument. I am thinking about the offense overall. I think Davis has his ups and downs, but he isn't special and I think you can replace his production with mid-round guys. I like that he is big, but he doesn't play big. Maybe that can develop over time. Samuel isn't special either, but his speed is his standout trait that we don't have on the roster. I'd give him the money over Davis. I don't think they will be able to afford a Tee Higgins type. So wading into the next tier and Samuel makes sense to me. what has Samuel's "stand ou" trait brought any team so far? why would you pay for that? his 4.31 was like 8 years ago. He's a downgrade at WR2 (like all the bums I mentioned that have taken a check from McBeane and are long gone). you have to do better than that... 2 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said: "making that up" implies I am stating that as a fact. I am not. I said "leads me to believe" which means i see his history and cannot believe that he suddenly declined mid-season. Also, you dont know for sure that he is not injured. McD is not going to state that and tip the upcoming opposition. We will know for sure in the offseason. he's not injured. I don't know even what type of injury you are imagining--something that had no obvious antecedent, caused no missed and has been kept off the weekly injury report for 3 months straight? why would anyone believe that? clearly the lack of a mentioned injury has NOT stopped every D he has faced from stuffing Diggs, so your argument also makes no sense. They are all already "tipped" on Diggs. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Davis at 4 seasons has only 600 fewer yards, more TDs than Samuel at 7. He'[s had one career season over 700 yards. Davis has had 2 in 4. The guy isn't in any way an upgrade over Davis. He's not even an upgrade over Shakir. This would be the typical dumb Bills WR off-season WR move: nearly dead Beasley/John Brown, Crowder, Sanders, Andre Roberts, Duke Williams, Kelvin Benjamin.. Just an endless stream of bums passing though. no thanks I know it's popular around here to invent or postulate injuries for when players start to hit the tank, but you're making that up. McD denied this was the case just yesterday when directly asked. Davis and Diggs can be evaluated and discussed separately---and Diggs performance since mid-October is what it is, it can't be "clouded" by thoughts about the performance of another receiver. It's a huge issue that everyone is talking about. It was noted that he had a back issue about the time that his production started to drop off. It's not something he can't practice and play thru obviously so they likely don't see the value in reporting it........but it could be significantly impacting his game. Pretty common for us to find out AFTER the season about these things. No advantage whatsoever to divulge unusual discomfort that might be slowing him down. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 5 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said: "making that up" implies I am stating that as a fact. I am not. I said "leads me to believe" which means i see his history and cannot believe that he suddenly declined mid-season. Also, you dont know for sure that he is not injured. McD is not going to state that and tip the upcoming opposition. We will know for sure in the offseason. Right. I pointed this out elsewhere, but it's worth re-stating here. In early 2020, Jerry Hughes posted on social media about having surgery to repair torn ligaments in his wrist which he had played through all 2019 season. He appeared on injury report, but only for "Vet Rest". The NFL investigated whether the Bills had violated their injury reporting policy - and concluded that the Bills had done nothing wrong This is for a documented, acknowledged by the player, honest to god "I was playing with torn wrist ligaments all season long" injury. I think McDermott's actual words were "nothing significant" or something like that. So we all need to calibrate that against the learning that apparently playing through actual torn ligaments requiring surgery is "nothing significant" per the Bills, and the NFL actually agreed with them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: It was noted that he had a back issue about the time that his production started to drop off. It's not something he can't practice and play thru obviously so they likely don't see the value in reporting it........but it could be significantly impacting his game. Pretty common for us to find out AFTER the season about these things. No advantage whatsoever to divulge unusual discomfort that might be slowing him down. every guy is playing hurt. As for the bolded, posters mention this a lot--but it makes little sense. It's up there with "bulletin board materail" and "trap games", "Santa Claus". Stuff fans like to talk about. obviously keeping the opposition "in the dark" about some presumed Diggs injury has has had "no advantage whatsoever" for Diggs or the Bills---he's getting shut down all the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 18 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said: "making that up" implies I am stating that as a fact. I am not. I said "leads me to believe" which means i see his history and cannot believe that he suddenly declined mid-season. Also, you dont know for sure that he is not injured. McD is not going to state that and tip the upcoming opposition. We will know for sure in the offseason. I will rephrase (see above)--I assume Diggs is as banged up as any player. I have no evidence or reason to believe he is debilitated to the point where he has declined for 3 months. His HC says his decreased snaps are not injury related and, specifically, that there is nothing medically wrong with him. As for his decreased snap counts--this mostly started when Brady took over----and it was explicitly by desing: "Look, I think there's times where we definitely tag him out of plays," Brady said. "I think it was something earlier in the season we talked about to get to where we want to get -- to just not playing (that many snaps)." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: It was noted that he had a back issue about the time that his production started to drop off. It's not something he can't practice and play thru obviously so they likely don't see the value in reporting it........but it could be significantly impacting his game. Pretty common for us to find out AFTER the season about these things. No advantage whatsoever to divulge unusual discomfort that might be slowing him down. Exactly. There is ample precedent for players, after the season, to report on actual surgery-requiring injuries (Hughes) or that the injury reported bluntly as "ribs" was actually multiple broken bones (Fitzpatrick, Beasley). These may or may not have appeared on the injury report, and if they did appear on the injury report, they may have disappeared more promptly than the typical course of healing for such an injury would suggest. I believe you're one of the guys who has pointed out that Diggs gets assaulted on almost every play. Opponents "accidentally" kick or knee or elbow his head, often while he's down, with no repercussions from the ref. It's why on some "mic'd up" segments you can see other players racing over after he's tackled yelling as they go "HEY HEY HEY HEY I'M HERE I'M HERE I'M HERE!" (Davis in one mic'd up segment). We all saw "Sauce" Gardner viciously supplex Diggs during the Nov. 19 Jets game. It's not hard to believe that at the least, that caused a massive contusion, even if the team (and Diggs) don't consider it significant enough to report. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: every guy is playing hurt. As for the bolded, posters mention this a lot--but it makes little sense. It's up there with "bulletin board materail" and "trap games", "Santa Claus". Stuff fans like to talk about. obviously keeping the opposition "in the dark" about some presumed Diggs injury has has had "no advantage whatsoever" for Diggs or the Bills---he's getting shut down all the same. Knowing that his back is hurting him might incline certain tacklers to risk penalty to body slam him to the turf in hopes of knocking him out of the game. Simple as that. Everyone is playing hurt.....generous of you to acknowledge that after denying the possibility prior..........but that doesn't account for to what degree it is impacting their ability to perform. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Just now, BADOLBILZ said: Knowing that his back is hurting him might incline certain tacklers to risk penalty to body slam him to the turf in hopes of knocking him out of the game. Simple as that. Everyone is playing hurt.....generous of you to acknowledge that after denying the possibility prior..........but that doesn't account for to what degree it is impacting their ability to perform. As everyone know, "hurt" isn't the same as "injury"--so why try to make such a point? Again, Defenders have needed no such "inside info" to slow down Diggs, so his decline has proven your premise false. Also, "body slamming" a player to "take him out of a game" is an option on any tackle. If it really had that result with any frequency, and for such a low cost (15 yarder), logic dictates that you would see guys taking the penalty on an opposing WR1 more frequently. But you don't. So that's another dumb argument that gets endlessly repeated here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 37 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said: I think it is a fair argument. I am thinking about the offense overall. I think Davis has his ups and downs, but he isn't special and I think you can replace his production with mid-round guys. I like that he is big, but he doesn't play big. Maybe that can develop over time. Samuel isn't special either, but his speed is his standout trait that we don't have on the roster. I'd give him the money over Davis. I don't think they will be able to afford a Tee Higgins type. So wading into the next tier and Samuel makes sense to me. Davis will get a bigger FA deal than Samuel. Without question. He isn't a bad suggestion as your "vet floor" for WR2 though. And then hopefully you find a draft pick who ultimately makes Samuel the first guy in off the bench who had inside / outside flex. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 45 minutes ago, Beck Water said: Oh, C'mon. With a 53 man roster, practice squad, 32 teams in the league, and a Win-and-In game that's essentially "Win or Go Home", SURELY we can find something? There is always "Josh doesnt take the easy throws" to fall back on 😃 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyBills Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) I love how shifty/twitchy Shakir is. Dude has massive upside. Curious what Shorter can do next year as well Edited January 3 by JerseyBills 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEpsYtown Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Davis will get a bigger FA deal than Samuel. Without question. He isn't a bad suggestion as your "vet floor" for WR2 though. And then hopefully you find a draft pick who ultimately makes Samuel the first guy in off the bench who had inside / outside flex. Yeah, Gabe gets more. I think that is going to be a crazy market. Not a lot out there so I think young guys like Gabe and Micahel Pittman are going to get seriously overpaid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: As everyone know, "hurt" isn't the same as "injury"--so why try to make such a point? Again, Defenders have needed no such "inside info" to slow down Diggs, so his decline has proven your premise false. Also, "body slamming" a player to "take him out of a game" is an option on any tackle. If it really had that result with any frequency, and for such a low cost (15 yarder), logic dictates that you would see guys taking the penalty on an opposing WR1 more frequently. But you don't. So that's another dumb argument that gets endlessly repeated here. That's meathead speak. I thought you were in the medical field. Usually you hurt because something in that area is injured. There are varying degrees of the same injury, no? You can also be injured but not "hurt". Thurman Thomas played his entire NFL career with a full torn knee tendon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) 33 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Knowing that his back is hurting him might incline certain tacklers to risk penalty to body slam him to the turf in hopes of knocking him out of the game. Simple as that. Everyone is playing hurt.....generous of you to acknowledge that after denying the possibility prior..........but that doesn't account for to what degree it is impacting their ability to perform. To your point: Diggs appeared on the Bills injury report Week 10 with an injury "back" after a collision with a security guard when he ran OOB Wk 9. In a rare move for him, he was limited in practice all that week. Gardner decided to pick him up and supplex him after the whistle Wk 11. He was penalized and fined 10k, to which he responded ambiguously "pain" I don't think one has to be a tin-hat conspiracy theorist to think that maybe Gardner knew Diggs had been on the injury report for a back injury the previous week, and maybe causing him some "pain" could aggravate it and knock him out. It's a fact that teams follow their opponents injury report and players go after known injured body parts with extra vigor. It's also a fact that Diggs big drop in productivity followed his Week 9, 6 reception on 7 target 86 yd game against Cincy - after which he showed up on the injury report. Edited January 3 by Beck Water 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 11 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said: Yeah, Gabe gets more. I think that is going to be a crazy market. Not a lot out there so I think young guys like Gabe and Micahel Pittman are going to get seriously overpaid. I hear that the upcoming draft is WR -rich. That may dampen the value of such second tier WRs ahead of the draft. I will be very surprised if any team gives Davis #1WR money like Peerless Price got many moons ago 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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