It was always play action.

[Warcodered]

 

Zero point Zero?

 

[Motorin']

46 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

It would be interesting to know what they mean by play action. Does that include in shotgun where they play RPO or fake a handful as well?

No matter what Rex says I have to believe play action is more effective when there is an actual threat of a run. 

Of course it is also more effective when you have the lead and the defense is more likely to expect a run.

Running play action down 10 in the fourth quarter can't do much. Up 10 in the fourth quarter and it has to be lethal. 

 

Aside from the fact that teams always run the ball to some degree (there's never been an NFL game with fewer than 5 rushing attempts by each team) it wouldn't be surprising if play action is effective when your running game wasn't. That means the defense is keyed in on stuffing your running game. And a defense focused on defending the run would be suspectable to play action. 

 

Not that you ever want your run game to be ineffective. 

 

You want to be able to run the ball effectively. 

 

And for all the guys saying you don't have to run at all, you don't want Josh Allen passing 50-60 times per game while running your rb's 9 times. That's how you lose to the Jacksonville Jaguars 6-9. 

 

And another thing to ponder. The Chiefs won the Super Bowl last year with Mahomes throwing 27 times for 180 yards while the Chiefs ran 26 times for 170 yards. 

 

I guess Andy Reid didn't get the memo that you don't have to run. 

 

 

 

[Thurman#1]

12 hours ago, FireChans said:

Prior to yesterday's beat down, Allen was 18 of 23 on play-action passes for 245 yards and two touchdowns.

 

Yesterday in play-action, Josh was 9/11 for 206 yards and 3 TD's. 

 

Need Dorsey to keep that going.

 

Some folks will say that the run game helps, which is understandable, but most of the data suggests that PA effectiveness is not predicated on run game success. So regardless, this is when Josh is at his most lethal.

 

 

We need Dorsey to keep that going?

 

What would make you think he's going to stop?

 

[Richard Noggin]

2 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

We need Dorsey to keep that going?

 

What would make you think he's going to stop?

 

 

Obviously it seems so...obvious.

 

Nevertheless, I had a bunch of friends and people near my seat gripe to me in-game, and also since the game, about all the running plays Dorsey calls on 1st down. So predictable and conservative. And predictably ineffective. And so on.

 

Except of course over the past two games I think at least 3 PASSING touchdowns were the result of play-action from under center. So...I don't know. Seems like compelling enough efficacy to maybe...NOT...whine about lazy cliches and otherwise be so rash to complain before we have proper context.

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

Aside from the fact that teams always run the ball to some degree (there's never been an NFL game with fewer than 5 rushing attempts by each team) it wouldn't be surprising if play action is effective when your running game wasn't. That means the defense is keyed in on stuffing your running game. And a defense focused on defending the run would be suspectable to play action. 

 

Not that you ever want your run game to be ineffective. 

 

You want to be able to run the ball effectively. 

 

And for all the guys saying you don't have to run at all, you don't want Josh Allen passing 50-60 times per game while running your rb's 9 times. That's how you lose to the Jacksonville Jaguars 6-9. 

 

And another thing to ponder. The Chiefs won the Super Bowl last year with Mahomes throwing 27 times for 180 yards while the Chiefs ran 26 times for 170 yards. 

 

I guess Andy Reid didn't get the memo that you don't have to run. 

 

 

 

 

 

IMO you're mixing up cause and effect here. 

 

It wasn't that the reason the Bills were terrible and lost to the Jags was that they only ran 9 times and threw it 47 times.

 

The reason the Bills lost to the Jags was that they couldn't run (22 yards on nine RB carries) and couldn't pass well (Allen's passer rating was 62.7). They sucked at both that game. They were terrible. That's why they lost. 

 

We only had 10 RB carries last year in the game we beat the Steelers 38 - 3. But in that game Allen played well, unlike his awful Jags game.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

Obviously it seems so...obvious.

 

Nevertheless, I had a bunch of friends and people near my seat gripe to me in-game, and also since the game, about all the running plays Dorsey calls on 1st down. So predictable and conservative. And predictably ineffective. And so on.

 

Except of course over the past two games I think at least 3 PASSING touchdowns were the result of play-action from under center. So...I don't know. Seems like compelling enough efficacy to maybe...NOT...whine about lazy cliches and otherwise be so rash to complain before we have proper context.

 

 

Yeah, some people complain about strange things. I don't see how people talking Bills offense can complain about anything about yesterday's game. The offense was nearly as good as the defense. And that's extremely good.

 

But again, it's been proven over and over again that you do NOT have to run a lot, or even run successfully, for play action to work.

 

People (some of them, anyway) maybe think Dorsey should stop running, you say. Not me, but some. But does that really mean that we think he will stop running play action when it's so successful?

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Thurman#1

[Sierra Foothills]

12 hours ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

I posted last week he needed to be under center a lot more and got blasted for it.

 

Shut up stupid face!!!

 

12 hours ago, McBean said:

Can you imagine Josh with Kyle Shannahan 

 

Let's try to stick to football.

 

12 hours ago, Motorin' said:

OMG, these people who think math is the real world, instead of an approximate of specific circumstances at specific moments.

 

Probably still the people that insist math is broken because Josh Allen was able to complete mor Ethan 50% of his passes. 

 

You leave @Ethan in Cleveland out of this!

 

11 hours ago, Julio Hopkins said:

Play action, pre-snap motion, and misdirection.  The absolute keys the Dolphins offense.  You know who else?  Literally every offense in football.  Defenses by nature are at a supreme disadvantage because they have to react to the offense.  

 

Shouldn't your last name also start with a "J"?

 

9 hours ago, NewEra said:

Agreed, but mix in some shotgun.  I think diversity is important. Anyone have a breakdown of shotgun to under center snaps from this game?

 

 

Wrong forum...

 

[Utah John]

Having two good guards for the first time while Josh has been in Buffalo means a whole lot of things have gotten better quickly.  Cook is the same guy who struggled most of last year, and now he's ripping off 8 or 10 yards at a go.  That added balance makes everything else harder to defend.  

[Motorin']

6 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

IMO you're mixing up cause and effect here. 

 

It wasn't that the reason the Bills were terrible and lost to the Jags was that they only ran 9 times and threw it 47 times.

 

The reason the Bills lost to the Jags was that they couldn't run (22 yards on nine RB carries) and couldn't pass well (Allen's passer rating was 62.7). They sucked at both that game. They were terrible. That's why they lost. 

 

We only had 10 RB carries last year in the game we beat the Steelers 38 - 3. But in that game Allen played well, unlike his awful Jags game.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, some people complain about strange things. I don't see how people talking Bills offense can complain about anything about yesterday's game. The offense was nearly as good as the defense. And that's extremely good.

 

But again, it's been proven over and over again that you do NOT have to run a lot, or even run successfully, for play action to work.

 

People (some of them, anyway) maybe think Dorsey should stop running, you say. Not me, but some. But does that really mean that we think he will stop running play action when it's so successful?

 

 

 

We ran the ball 18 times for 125 yards against the Steelers. The RB's averaged nearly 5 yards per carry. 

 

And completed 20 passes for 424 yards and 4 TD's.

 

That's not a very good example of not running the ball often or effectively. 

 

This Bills offense needs balance. It needs production from the running backs to take pressure off of Josh Allen's shoulders. And that's exactly what has propelled this team to back to back to back 28 points victories. 

 

I don't know about you, but I'd love to reduce the amount of contact Josh takes every single season moving forward. That's how we have him for another 10 years instead of him retiring in his early 30's. 

 

In any event, the point of the offense isn't for play action to be effective. It's to control and win games. 

 

Sure we're going to be able to blow out bad teams doing whatever we want. But against really good teams, in the playoffs and Super Bowl, we are going to need to control the line of scrimmage and run the ball effectively. 

 

And the better this Bills team is at running the ball, the better it will be for Josh and the passing game.

 

I don't care how many times people say "you don't have to run the ball for play action to be effective." It's a stupid point to make. 

 

Unless we're playing a team with a terrible defense in February, if we can't run the ball effectively, it's going to be a very long day for our QB. 

[RunTheBall]

The missing piece to this offense over the last years has been an effective running game. Yes, I know we’ve run the ball before but I think everyone can see with their eyes that we are more effective this year.

 

The main reason is 1) Upgraded guards 2) Year 2 of Kromer 3) Not trying to run wide zone when gap runs are more effective for us 4) Spencer Brown has not been the disaster everyone predicted (he’s always been good in run game tho) 5) Murray / Harris are awesome signings and I think both will get more involved as the season progresses.

 

As for play action, many were calling for more Josh under center and more PA and the results speak for themselves.

 

PA can be effective without a good running game. I believe it’s more effective, especially on 2nd/3rd and short, if you’ve been running the ball down their throats.

[Bookie Man]

I've wanted more commitment to the running game for years. Many disagreed bc they didn't want to take the ball out of Josh's hands. But what they don't understand is the quality of his play when the ball IS in his hands will outweigh the volume of him passing all the time. The offense hums when we establish the running game. 

[FireChans]

8 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

We need Dorsey to keep that going?

 

What would make you think he's going to stop?

 

Lots of coordinators get cute and try new things and get too far away from what’s working.

[HoofHearted]

I like that we're 4 pages in and OL blocking scheme hasn't been brought up once.

[Simon]

12 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

I like that we're 4 pages in and OL blocking scheme hasn't been brought up once.

 

Well, it has now.

It's probably because 90+% of the people here don't have a firm grasp of it, myself included.

 

Would you care to enlighten us?

In English?

[HoofHearted]

1 minute ago, Simon said:

 

Well, it has now.

It's probably because 90+% of the people here don't have a firm grasp of it, myself included.

 

Would you care to enlighten us?

In English?

The mesh is just one part of the formula for what sells the action as a whole. The blocking scheme up front is another part of that formula. You want your pass protection to mirror the same look as one of your run schemes. The easiest, and probably most prevalent in the NFL when under center, is to mimic stretch since the OL is moving horizontally. We did this a number of times this past week. Dorsey actually dialed up a really cool protection where they showed stretch blocking and after about a two or three count Morse spun back to pick up the free edge rusher (it was the big pass to Cook on the sideline). This is why RPOs are so successful though. You can scheme to get a linebacker to go wherever you want them to go, and if they don't then just hand it off because they won't have the numbers to fit the run.

[HappyDays]

7 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Dorsey actually dialed up a really cool protection where they showed stretch blocking and after about a two or three count Morse spun back to pick up the free edge rusher (it was the big pass to Cook on the sideline).

 

It was a cool protection except for the fact that Morse never got his feet set and got driven back into Josh's lap. Diggs was open for a deep curl about 20 yards downfield but Josh couldn't get a good platform. Luckily he is a magician and created a big play out of nothing.

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by HappyDays

[Mikie2times]

 

I remember posting about Josh and PA after we drafted him. A lot of people questioned his accuracy, timing, and mechanics. You would have a very difficult time finding any tape from Wyoming in which he wasn't in rhythm on PA. If Josh has a sliver he can fit it in. He doesn't have that much guess work on PA. It's usually simplified reads. More often than not he will get some window and he just rips it with no hesitation when it happens.