The Frankish Reich Posted September 7, 2023 Share Posted September 7, 2023 5 hours ago, JaCrispy said: Agreed- as should the American government… If US cuts off its funding, the war ends tomorrow… Helluva way to "end" a war. And yeah, that won't embolden Putin at all. 7 hours ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: https://www.thedailybeast.com/musk-secretly-used-starlink-to-foil-ukrainian-drone-attack-on-russian-ships-report CNN and NYT also reporting on him turning off Starlink when Ukranian drones approached Russian ships. An unelected crazy MAGA playing actual master of the universe. Feel free to comment. As I understand it, Musk isn't saying he's doing it to favor Russia or disfavor Ukraine or any such thing. He simply doesn't want his company to get involved in the hostilities at all. If he provides Starlink access to Ukraine to facilitate civil communications, and continues to do so, that's still a good thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted September 7, 2023 Author Share Posted September 7, 2023 6 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: Helluva way to "end" a war. And yeah, that won't embolden Putin at all. As I understand it, Musk isn't saying he's doing it to favor Russia or disfavor Ukraine or any such thing. He simply doesn't want his company to get involved in the hostilities at all. If he provides Starlink access to Ukraine to facilitate civil communications, and continues to do so, that's still a good thing. He ordered his starlink engineers to turn it off destroying a Ukrainian drone mission that he was concerned would look like Pearl Harbor. Not his place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 7, 2023 Share Posted September 7, 2023 14 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: Helluva way to "end" a war. And yeah, that won't embolden Putin at all. As I understand it, Musk isn't saying he's doing it to favor Russia or disfavor Ukraine or any such thing. He simply doesn't want his company to get involved in the hostilities at all. If he provides Starlink access to Ukraine to facilitate civil communications, and continues to do so, that's still a good thing. Embolden him to do what? Invade another country? Not even remotely possible now. And I agree with you on Musk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted September 7, 2023 Share Posted September 7, 2023 2 minutes ago, Doc said: Embolden him to do what? Invade another country? Not even remotely possible now. And I agree with you on Musk. Here's what I learned a long time ago. I believe it still holds true today. 1. In the modern world, democracies don't got to war with democracies. Really. Try to find a counterexample. At least one side is some type of authoritarian government. This is called "the democratic peace." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_peace_theory#:~:text=The democratic peace theory posits,better than democratic peace theory. 2. Wars are therefore explained by two factors: (a) the existence of an aggressive dictatorship or other undemocratic regime; and (b) the lack of effective deterrence. We can easily see that with Russia and Ukraine. Factor (a) is self-evident. Factor (b) is seen in the weak - in reality, nonexistent - consequences of Putin's invasion/annexation of Crimea, and in the tepid expressions of support for Ukraine in the international community, including the United States. With respect to the USA, this is not a Republican/Democrat or Obama/Trump/Biden issue. The support for the independence of an intact Ukraine was tepid under all administrations. There was likewise a lack of clear support from Europe; imagine something formal from Finland and Sweden saying that they are beginning negotiations to join NATO with an eye toward doing so if Russia does not respect the territorial integrity of the (non-Crimea) Ukraine. Sometimes the theory does explain everything, but we only recognize that in the rear view mirror. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted September 7, 2023 Author Share Posted September 7, 2023 6 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: Here's what I learned a long time ago. I believe it still holds true today. 1. In the modern world, democracies don't got to war with democracies. Really. Try to find a counterexample. At least one side is some type of authoritarian government. This is called "the democratic peace." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_peace_theory#:~:text=The democratic peace theory posits,better than democratic peace theory. 2. Wars are therefore explained by two factors: (a) the existence of an aggressive dictatorship or other undemocratic regime; and (b) the lack of effective deterrence. We can easily see that with Russia and Ukraine. Factor (a) is self-evident. Factor (b) is seen in the weak - in reality, nonexistent - consequences of Putin's invasion/annexation of Crimea, and in the tepid expressions of support for Ukraine in the international community, including the United States. With respect to the USA, this is not a Republican/Democrat or Obama/Trump/Biden issue. The support for the independence of an intact Ukraine was tepid under all administrations. There was likewise a lack of clear support from Europe; imagine something formal from Finland and Sweden saying that they are beginning negotiations to join NATO with an eye toward doing so if Russia does not respect the territorial integrity of the (non-Crimea) Ukraine. Sometimes the theory does explain everything, but we only recognize that in the rear view mirror. Perfect...unless you desire authoritarianism. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaCrispy Posted September 7, 2023 Share Posted September 7, 2023 3 hours ago, cle23 said: A good way to end a home invasion sooner is to let the invader do as they please. Home invasion is different…The Ukraine situation is about the US creating the problem, and then using tax payer dollars to keep it going- pushing us closer and closer to WW3…. Make no mistake, if WW3 ever does come about, it was by choice… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted September 7, 2023 Author Share Posted September 7, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: Home invasion is different…The Ukraine situation is about the US creating the problem, and then using tax payer dollars to keep it going- pushing us closer and closer to WW3…. Make no mistake, if WW3 ever does come about, it was by choice… The US wanted Russia to invade Ukraine killing 100's of thousands, destroying crops and infrastructure and kidnapping their kids? Really? Used to be that R's worried about communist creep. This time it's a jump with most of Eastern Europe within reach. What is wrong with you? I think the Russian's do. And they'll be totally annihilated if they use nukes. I don't believe they want that any more than we do. We could use that excuse to abstain should they enter Poland or the next country. The possession of nukes can't be a free pass... Edited September 7, 2023 by Joe Ferguson forever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaCrispy Posted September 7, 2023 Share Posted September 7, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: The US wanted Russia to invade Ukraine killing 100's of thousands, destroying crops and infrastructure and kidnapping their kids? Really? Used to be that R's worried about communist creep. This time it's a jump with most of Eastern Europe within reach. What is wrong with you? I think the Russian's do. And they'll be totally annihilated if they use nukes. I don't believe they want that any more than we do. We could use that excuse to abstain should they enter Poland or the next country. The possession of nukes can't be a free pass... The Military Industrial Complex does not care about how many Ukrainians die in this conflict…I know that may be hard for some to swallow, but it’s true… Ukraine is the sacrificial lamb in America’s economic proxy war with Russia…It has NOTHING to do with democracy, liberty, or any of the other cute catch phrases our captured msm wants to propagandize to you to get you to support the war (just like the Iraq War)…But it has everything to do with the US wanting to be the main energy supplier to Europe, instead of Russia…is that worth 500,000 Ukrainian lives? How about 1 million? And why stop there? And all you have to do is look at our foreign policy history over the last 75 years…we’ve done this all over the world time and time again… If you cannot start with this very simple and basic fact, there is nothing I can do for you by continuing this conversation… There has to be a foundation by which we both agree, to ever think of having a dialogue…Otherwise, we are communicating with languages from two different planets…👍 Edited September 7, 2023 by JaCrispy 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted September 7, 2023 Share Posted September 7, 2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlBUNDY4TDS Posted September 7, 2023 Share Posted September 7, 2023 2 hours ago, Tiberius said: Which one? At this point, all of your posts........ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted September 7, 2023 Share Posted September 7, 2023 14 minutes ago, AlBUNDY4TDS said: At this point, all of your posts........ Regarding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted September 7, 2023 Share Posted September 7, 2023 8 hours ago, JaCrispy said: Good! Maybe it will help end the war sooner… You do realize that one side attack the other first, right Sometimes I get a maze the people have to have this explain to them 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted September 7, 2023 Share Posted September 7, 2023 9 hours ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: https://www.thedailybeast.com/musk-secretly-used-starlink-to-foil-ukrainian-drone-attack-on-russian-ships-report CNN and NYT also reporting on him turning off Starlink when Ukranian drones approached Russian ships. An unelected crazy MAGA playing actual master of the universe. Feel free to comment. this is my world and can tell you this is garbage. Fact- Musk directed his teams to alter their carriers almost overnight in unprecedented fashion and deploy free service to connect the Ukraine people to unadulterated uncensored information (internet). Which evaded the Russian jamming that was in place. this allowed the people access. if the Ukrainian army abused this effort to attempt a military drone strike using that same infrastructure then it’s on them. He’s not a party of the military network architecture. It would be like the us army using at&ts network to attack china … stupid hit piece by dumb people that hate real free speech advocates that aren’t puppets of the state. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted September 8, 2023 Share Posted September 8, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: He ordered his starlink engineers to turn it off destroying a Ukrainian drone mission that he was concerned would look like Pearl Harbor. Not his place. Why are they using a residential internet service to deliver a military attack? did they sign a contract with starlink saying we are using your satellite constellation to attack a sovereign country? what if Russia starts blowing up starlink satellites ? You’re jumping to conclusions in a world far removed from your expertise Edited September 8, 2023 by Over 29 years of fanhood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaCrispy Posted September 8, 2023 Share Posted September 8, 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: You do realize that one side attack the other first, right Sometimes I get a maze the people have to have this explain to them You mean back in 2014 when American backed Nazis were slaughtering the ethnic Russians that lived in eastern Ukraine? Maybe you can help explain that story to me…😉 Sorry, man, but if we’re being fair, we have to tell the WHOLE story, and not just the part that fits a narrative or an agenda… Edited September 8, 2023 by JaCrispy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted September 8, 2023 Share Posted September 8, 2023 nonsense ☝️ Putin propaganda 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted September 8, 2023 Share Posted September 8, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Buffalo Posted September 8, 2023 Share Posted September 8, 2023 To @Tiberius and @John from Riverside what does minimal acceptable peace look like to you? At this point the war have destroyed the Russian ability to start another war, the war has decimated the young male population of both Ukraine and Russia, and we now know that Russians are not going to turn on Putin soon. What will more war account? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaCrispy Posted September 8, 2023 Share Posted September 8, 2023 56 minutes ago, ALF said: nonsense ☝️ Putin propaganda Which part? Can you be specific? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted September 8, 2023 Share Posted September 8, 2023 24 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: Which part? Can you be specific? No. Putin 'propaganda' is all they got. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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