Report: Bills allegedly privately open to trading Diggs "under the right circumstances"

[Richard Noggin]

2 hours ago, first_and_ten said:

 

Those were voluntary. Why people like to criticize players for not showing up to voluntary practice has always perplexed me. But anyway, we will see this year if it was selfish or a desire to win. I saw a guy in the Cincinnati game who was upset about losing. I didn't see that same passion in the rest of the offense that day. I still think this whole thing might end up helping the team. Remember the bickering Bills?

 

I never criticize specific players for skipping voluntary "off-season" team activities. It's been collectively bargained, and it's their right to be elsewhere. Full stop.

 

However, I can empathize with those fans/pundits who DO criticize players for missing voluntary training, as it's easy to see how incredibly well-compensated they are especially in light of how many bargained days they have "off" each year. I'm sure the specifics are available online, but assuming NFL players officially "work" 6 days a week from August through January (or 6 months total starting in late July but usually ending in early January): that's roughly 156 days of mandated, on-site work. And we know that's a liberal estimate, given bye weeks and other breaks. (I'm avoiding the reality that serious, successful NFL players probably "voluntarily" choose to "work" (train) a little bit (2-3 hours) 6 days a week, almost every week of the calendar year.)

 

For comparison, the most days off I can think of for "normal" citizens is probably teachers, who around me, have bargained roughly 185-190 calendar days of work. So an additional month of on-site work days, and for approximately 1/10th-1/20th the salary at best. 

[first_and_ten]

20 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

This coming season is a critical one for him. His trajectory has taken a dip. Let’s see if he can turn it around in the right direction. 

 

I agree

[first_and_ten]

1 minute ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

I never criticize specific players for skipping voluntary "off-season" team activities. It's been collectively bargained, and it's their right to be elsewhere. Full stop.

 

However, I can empathize with those fans/pundits who DO criticize players for missing voluntary training, as it's easy to see how incredibly well-compensated they are especially in light of how many bargained days they have "off" each year. I'm sure the specifics are available online, but assuming NFL players officially "work" 6 days a week from August through January (or 6 months total starting in late July but usually ending in early January): that's roughly 156 days of mandated, on-site work. And we know that's a liberal estimate, given bye weeks and other breaks. (I'm avoiding the reality that serious, successful NFL players probably "voluntarily" choose to "work" (train) a little bit (2-3 hours) 6 days a week, almost every week of the calendar year.)

 

For comparison, the most days off I can think of for "normal" citizens is probably teachers, who around me, have bargained roughly 185-190 calendar days of work. So an additional month of on-site work days, and for approximately 1/10th-1/20th the salary at best. 

 

I would argue because of the nature of the sport, the bargained days of are a good thing for the players. We want players to be as healthy as possible when the season starts. I think it's possible that Diggs didn't show to make a statement. He saw the same offense as he saw in the Cincinnati playoff game and wants change. Ken Dorsey was badly outcoached by Cincy. I have no doubt that Diggs wants to win, badly. 

[Richard Noggin]

23 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Come on man.  You made the claim that Allen wasn't as focused and committed as he was before and Diggs was calling him out on that.  Allen showing up at voluntary OTA's and Diggs not showing up kind of throws a wrench in your theory.

 

Mostly I agree with this simple comparison, but then again...simply showing up for these practices is not evidence of a deeper, more focused grind and dedication to improvement that will actually net results.

 

I'd rather read about Allen immersing in a few weeks of Jordan Palmer's QB camp, working on specifically-identified facets of his game. He might still be doing that each summer, but I haven't seen it this summer (and maybe last?). Likewise, I don't mind if Stefon Diggs adheres to whatever private, off-season regimen has allowed him to rise to excellence and remain at that level for years.

[Nelius]

It's so hilarious how anybody thinks stuff like this leaks. Like some dude with a tape recorder pulls up to some unknown Bills "inside man" at the bar, who just happens to spill the beans, jack. This is so stupid. Watch Diggs go off for 2k this year.

[Doc Brown]

20 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

Mostly I agree with this simple comparison, but then again...simply showing up for these practices is not evidence of a deeper, more focused grind and dedication to improvement that will actually net results.

 

I'd rather read about Allen immersing in a few weeks of Jordan Palmer's QB camp, working on specifically-identified facets of his game. He might still be doing that each summer, but I haven't seen it this summer (and maybe last?). Likewise, I don't mind if Stefon Diggs adheres to whatever private, off-season regimen has allowed him to rise to excellence and remain at that level for years.

I understand that and I'd have no problem with Diggs missing voluntary OTA's because he's an established veteran who's work ethic has never been questioned.  However, whatever problem he had Allen/Dorsey/McDermott, he knew they were all going to be there at voluntary OTA's and it would've been a great time to resolve them in mid April instead of waiting to show up when you have to in mid June.  Seems like a logical move if he really wanted to win so much more than everyone else like first and ten is suggesting.

[Aimee75]

11 hours ago, first_and_ten said:

 

This is such a dumb take. He was never really in the MVP race. Josh Allen had the most turnovers in the NFL in 2022. Let that sink in, THE MOST!! I never said they weren't allowed to have lives. I'm just commenting on what I have observed this off season. To be the best at something, it takes hard work. It takes commitment. As I've said, I hope I'm wrong. Also, if you want to have a conversation, don't start off by calling the other person dumb. 

He was very much in the MVP race, are you serious right now? Are you really a Bills fan or just a troll in the guise of a Bills fan? I see a lot of that over here. People who show up to pick on Allen or the team. I can't help but side eye.

 

You do realize that Mahomes and Burrow also had a ton of INT's too, right? I could have sworn that Dak Prescott led the league in turnovers, but I could be wrong. Either way, people just use Josh's turnovers as an excuse to discredit him as a QB. It's all they have at this point. Josh is a gunslinger, and turnovers are a part of his play. I am not saying he can't clean those up or make better decisions, but he is the main reason the team is in these games, or winning them. Two 13-3 seasons and one 11-6. It's not like he is costing the team games with turnovers, aside from the Vikings game. He is high risk/high reward, and usually the reason the team is on the winning side of games. 

BTW I said your "take was dumb", not you. 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Aimee75

[Beck Water]

11 hours ago, 90sBills said:

This coming season is a critical one for him. His trajectory has taken a dip. Let’s see if he can turn it around in the right direction. 

 

"His trajectory has taken a dip", by what criteria?

 

-More passing YPG than 2021

-Higher TD%, and while slightly higher INT % (2.5 vs 2.3%) it's actually lower on a per game basis (0.875 vs 0.882)

-Higher passer rating (96.6 vs 92.2), higher AY/A (7.7 vs 6.9) and for those who care about it, higher QBR (71.4 vs 60.7)

-2nd in the league in total TD (42 vs Mahomes 45)

-2nd in the league in total Y/Sc per game (315.3 vs Mahomes 329.9)

 

By what criteria or criterion has his "trajectory taken a dip"?  He lost 2 more fumbles than 2021?  That's a botched snap and a botched toss to I-Mck behind the LOS

 

And let's skip the "Oh we can't criticize Allen on this board" baloney.  I'm on record criticizing Allen plenty.  He may be one of the best 3 QB in the league, but we'd like to see him take a step and become the best.  There are things he needs to improve to get there.  But Allen played at as high or higher level last season as he did in 2021, with a worse-quality WR corps, a worse line in front of him, and a 1st year OC who was not as good at scheming guys open.

 

So this "trajectory has taken a dip, let's see if he can turn it around in the right direction" is just crazy talk IMO until demonstrated otherwise by some objective metric.

Stand and Deliver.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, Aimee75 said:

You do realize that Mahomes and Burrow also had a ton of INT's too, right? I could have sworn that Dak Prescott led the league in turnovers, but I could be wrong.

 

You are mistaken. 

 

Josh did lead the league in turnovers last year.  14 INT and 5 fumbles lost:

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-players-with-most-turnovers-2022

 

Like most statistics, some context is needed to interpret them sensibly.  Of course all the league leaders in TO are QBs because, INT.  But, of the top 5 (Allen, Ryan, Mills, Cousins, Lawrence), Allen is the only one with a significant running component to his game. 

 

The 5 top rushing QB (Fields, Jackson, Hurts, Allen, Jones) all lost 2-3 fumbles.  Allen is an outlier there with 5 fumbles lost. 

But of those 5, only Jalen Hurts is a top passer (11th in YPG). The others are all <200 ypg guys.

 

So fundamentally, Allen combines the fumbles of a dual threat QB with the fumbles of a top passing QB who tries to extend plays and risks the strip sack.  Is it good, No, but understood in context, he's not some hideous outlier, either.

 

We'd like to see Allen replicate his 2020 season, when he had both Diggs, Brown/Davis as a deep threat, and Beasley as an "always open" slot outlet.  In that season, Allen was 8th in the league with 16 turnovers.  He threw 4 fewer INT, but he also lost 6 fumbles out of 9 total.  He can do better: 2021 lost 3 fumbles out of 8 total.

 

The point is, Allen will always likely be high on the "turnovers" list as long as he remains a dual threat QB who is contributing near the top 5 for YPG passing, AND is one of the top 5 rushing QB.  We want him to get back to the 2021 level of fumbles and the 2020 level of INTs.  BUT, he can't do that alone.  He needs receivers and a well-designed passing game that gives him options, he needs protection, and he needs to improve his decision making (McDermott said this),

 

2 hours ago, Aimee75 said:

Josh is a gunslinger, and turnovers are a part of his play. I am not saying he can't clean those up or make better decisions, but he is the main reason the team is in these games, or winning them. Two 13-3 seasons and one 11-6. It's not like he is costing the team games with turnovers, aside from the Vikings game. He is high risk/high reward, and usually the reason the team is on the winning side of games.

 

Josh did cost the team with turnovers other than the Vikings game.  We eventually won in GB - but it was much closer than it should have been due to Josh's dumb 2nd half picks taking points off the board for us and handing them to GB.  Our D bailed us out to get the W, and if they aren't as good next season (quite possible), we'll lose more of those GB like games.

Then we lost to the Jets and Josh was injured the following week.  Again, INT by Josh played a key role.  He was picked once on the Jets 13 yd line, taking points off the board.  He was picked a 2nd time and the play ended in the Red Zone for the Jets and resulted in 14 points 3 plays later.  That's the difference between losing 17-20 and winning 24-13 or 20-13 right there.  Maybe if Allen isn't pushing to make something happen at the end, he gets the ball out and his UCL isn't torn near the end.

Then there's the Miami playoff game, where we won 34-31, but Miami got 16 points (could have been 18) directly off Josh Allen turnovers (2 picks and a fumble).  It should never have been that close.  It left the team drained and exhausted.  Maybe if it were a cleaner win, we would have had more in the tank for the Bengals.

 

I don't buy this "he is a gunslinger, high risk/high reward thing.  Allen is capable of better - see above, in previous years he has done better. 

But as @Buffalo716 has said, he's also only 1/53 players and he needs some help offensively to get there.  He is pushing because he thinks he needs to press like that to win.  He needs better decision making, but he also needs an "Easy" button to push.

[Nextmanup]

So did we trade Diggs yet?

 

 

[BillsfaninSB]

6 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

So did we trade Diggs yet?

 

 

Yes but it is private. 

[first_and_ten]

9 hours ago, Aimee75 said:

He was very much in the MVP race, are you serious right now? Are you really a Bills fan or just a troll in the guise of a Bills fan? I see a lot of that over here. People who show up to pick on Allen or the team. I can't help but side eye.

 

You do realize that Mahomes and Burrow also had a ton of INT's too, right? I could have sworn that Dak Prescott led the league in turnovers, but I could be wrong. Either way, people just use Josh's turnovers as an excuse to discredit him as a QB. It's all they have at this point. Josh is a gunslinger, and turnovers are a part of his play. I am not saying he can't clean those up or make better decisions, but he is the main reason the team is in these games, or winning them. Two 13-3 seasons and one 11-6. It's not like he is costing the team games with turnovers, aside from the Vikings game. He is high risk/high reward, and usually the reason the team is on the winning side of games. 

BTW I said your "take was dumb", not you. 

 

I've been a Bills fan for over 40 years. Had season tickets during the Super Bowl years. Don't try to say that I'm not a Bills fan because I have an opinion on a certain topic. How long have you been a fan, 2 years? And yes, he had odd's on him to win MVP, but no real knowledgeable person thought he had any chance to win it. No one with the most turnovers would ever win it. Just because I didn't think he was ever a serious candidate to win the award doesn't mean I'm not a big Josh Allen fan. I am certainly a fan, and I would give anything to just win one Super Bowl. I suffered through a lot of lean years and then suffered through 4 Super Bowl losses.

Dak Prescott was second and he's been roasted because of it. Mahomes had 12, Burrow I believe had 15. I wouldn't say anyone had a ton of turnovers, even Josh didn't have , in your words, a ton. Yes, turnovers are part of his play, but go back and look at some of them. Even he admits many of them were preventable. He has to do better and he's the first to admit that. Kudos to him for saying that. 

 

I'd like to know how you turned my comments into me hating Josh Allen as our QB. I think he is probably going to go down as our best ever. I just questioned his total commitment based on what I see in the off season. This is why I think your take on my take is dumb. Because I questioned his total commitment this off season, not his ability as a quarterback. He's been great for the most part. Without him at his best, they have no shot. My initial point was saying that maybe Diggs was trying to make a statement concerning the commitment of the coaches and maybe even Josh. I said this spat may end up helping the team in the long haul. Look back on all my posts. I am not a troll. 

[first_and_ten]

7 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

You are mistaken. 

 

Josh did lead the league in turnovers last year.  14 INT and 5 fumbles lost:

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-players-with-most-turnovers-2022

 

Like most statistics, some context is needed to interpret them sensibly.  Of course all the league leaders in TO are QBs because, INT.  But, of the top 5 (Allen, Ryan, Mills, Cousins, Lawrence), Allen is the only one with a significant running component to his game. 

 

The 5 top rushing QB (Fields, Jackson, Hurts, Allen, Jones) all lost 2-3 fumbles.  Allen is an outlier there with 5 fumbles lost. 

But of those 5, only Jalen Hurts is a top passer (11th in YPG). The others are all <200 ypg guys.

 

So fundamentally, Allen combines the fumbles of a dual threat QB with the fumbles of a top passing QB who tries to extend plays and risks the strip sack.  Is it good, No, but understood in context, he's not some hideous outlier, either.

 

We'd like to see Allen replicate his 2020 season, when he had both Diggs, Brown/Davis as a deep threat, and Beasley as an "always open" slot outlet.  In that season, Allen was 8th in the league with 16 turnovers.  He threw 4 fewer INT, but he also lost 6 fumbles out of 9 total.  He can do better: 2021 lost 3 fumbles out of 8 total.

 

The point is, Allen will always likely be high on the "turnovers" list as long as he remains a dual threat QB who is contributing near the top 5 for YPG passing, AND is one of the top 5 rushing QB.  We want him to get back to the 2021 level of fumbles and the 2020 level of INTs.  BUT, he can't do that alone.  He needs receivers and a well-designed passing game that gives him options, he needs protection, and he needs to improve his decision making (McDermott said this),

 

 

Josh did cost the team with turnovers other than the Vikings game.  We eventually won in GB - but it was much closer than it should have been due to Josh's dumb 2nd half picks taking points off the board for us and handing them to GB.  Our D bailed us out to get the W, and if they aren't as good next season (quite possible), we'll lose more of those GB like games.

Then we lost to the Jets and Josh was injured the following week.  Again, INT by Josh played a key role.  He was picked once on the Jets 13 yd line, taking points off the board.  He was picked a 2nd time and the play ended in the Red Zone for the Jets and resulted in 14 points 3 plays later.  That's the difference between losing 17-20 and winning 24-13 or 20-13 right there.  Maybe if Allen isn't pushing to make something happen at the end, he gets the ball out and his UCL isn't torn near the end.

Then there's the Miami playoff game, where we won 34-31, but Miami got 16 points (could have been 18) directly off Josh Allen turnovers (2 picks and a fumble).  It should never have been that close.  It left the team drained and exhausted.  Maybe if it were a cleaner win, we would have had more in the tank for the Bengals.

 

I don't buy this "he is a gunslinger, high risk/high reward thing.  Allen is capable of better - see above, in previous years he has done better. 

But as @Buffalo716 has said, he's also only 1/53 players and he needs some help offensively to get there.  He is pushing because he thinks he needs to press like that to win.  He needs better decision making, but he also needs an "Easy" button to push.

 

Great post!! Maybe Kincaid can be that "Beasley" always open guy this year. 

[90sBills]

8 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

"His trajectory has taken a dip", by what criteria?

 

By championships criteria. He’s an elite qb as you noted. You said he’s top 3. I say he’s top 2. Regardless, many projected him to win multiple superbowls (some still do). He’s going into his 6th season and is getting further from that goal. Let recap so you see how the trajectory changed course.

 

First year: You can see his improvements and progress.

Year 2: Made the playoffs. Lost the wildcard round. Even though they didn’t advance far it’s a milestone making the playoffs. 
Year 3: Went even further in the playoffs. Advanced to the AFCCG. Lost to a better team. But the potential is palpable. Future looks bright. 
Year 4: Caught lightning in the playoffs. Even though the team was short of the AFCCG everyone understood because he was masterful in that divisional game. Future again looks bright. Everything set up for year 5.

Year 5: Lighting continued in the early part of the season but fizzled bad. Culminating in his worse playoff performance to date against the Bengals. Lifeless for both him and the team. Now there are questions if he can ever win 1 much less multiple superbowls.

 

So tell me again how his trajectory hasn’t dipped? You laid out a bunch of stats and that’s great. But Phillip Rivers accumulated a lot of stats in his career and will probably be a hof. No superbowl appearance for him. Are you good with Allen doing that?

 

So I stand by my statement. Very critical year upcoming. If the team gets bounced from the playoffs with another lackluster performance from Allen then it wouldn’t be good. Not saying he has to win the superbowl next season. But he has to show that ‘21 playoffs form.

 

[90sBills]

45 minutes ago, first_and_ten said:

 

I've been a Bills fan for over 40 years. Had season tickets during the Super Bowl years. Don't try to say that I'm not a Bills fan because I have an opinion on a certain topic.

Great post! I’ve been accused of not being a real fan as well for having criticisms of Allen when he played poorly. Some fans just can’t handle anything less than adulation of him. He’s not perfect. He’d be the first to say that. 

[first_and_ten]

17 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

Great post! I’ve been accused of not being a real fan as well for having criticisms of Allen when he played poorly. Some fans just can’t handle anything less than adulation of him. He’s not perfect. He’d be the first to say that. 

 

 

Exactly. It's not that we are not fans, right? We want them to win.  Thank you for your support. 

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, first_and_ten said:

Dak Prescott was second and he's been roasted because of it. Mahomes had 12, Burrow I believe had 15. I wouldn't say anyone had a ton of turnovers, even Josh didn't have , in your words, a ton. Yes, turnovers are part of his play, but go back and look at some of them. Even he admits many of them were preventable. He has to do better and he's the first to admit that. Kudos to him for saying that.

 

Agree on Josh's comments and on the fact that a number of Josh's turnovers were bad decisions

 

Not sure if we're talking turnovers or INTs here.

If we're talking turnovers (INTs plus fumbles) Dak was 7th, with 16 to Josh's 19.  Ahead of him Ryan, Mills, Cousins, Lawrence and (drumroll) Aaron Rodgers.

 

If we're talking INTs, Davis Mills and Dak were tied with 15, Allen tied for 2nd with 14 (with Cousins and Derek Carr)

 

1 hour ago, 90sBills said:

First year: You can see his improvements and progress.

Year 2: Made the playoffs. Lost the wildcard round. Even though they didn’t advance far it’s a milestone making the playoffs. 
Year 3: Went even further in the playoffs. Advanced to the AFCCG. Lost to a better team. But the potential is palpable. Future looks bright. 
Year 4: Caught lightning in the playoffs. Even though the team was short of the AFCCG everyone understood because he was masterful in that divisional game. Future again looks bright. Everything set up for year 5.

Year 5: Lighting continued in the early part of the season but fizzled bad. Culminating in his worse playoff performance to date against the Bengals. Lifeless for both him and the team. Now there are questions if he can ever win 1 much less multiple superbowls.

 

So tell me again how his trajectory hasn’t dipped? You laid out a bunch of stats and that’s great. But Phillip Rivers accumulated a lot of stats in his career and will probably be a hof. No superbowl appearance for him. Are you good with Allen doing that?

 

So basically you're saying Allen's trajectory dipped because of his performance in the playoffs?

 

I'm not going to argue with you, you're entitled to define "trajectory" any way you like, including defining it as "how the guy looked during the final playoff game"

 

I will note that numerous football coaches comment on neither annointing nor pillorying a guy because of one game.  And the point stands that there are 53 players on a team, 46 or 48 active on game day.  The whole team came out "flat as a pancake" and performed horribly during the playoffs.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Beck Water

[Dr.Sack]

Diggs for Jefferson straight up 

[90sBills]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

So basically you're saying Allen's trajectory dipped because of his performance in the playoffs?

 

I'm not going to argue with you, you're entitled to define "trajectory" any way you like, including defining it as "how the guy looked during the final playoff game"

 

I will note that numerous football coaches comment on neither annointing nor pillorying a guy because of one game.  And the point stands that there are 53 players on a team, 46 or 48 active on game day.  The whole team came out "flat as a pancake" and performed horribly during the playoffs.

No arguing here on my end. We’re just fans expressing our opinions. 😎

 

To me getting to the Superbowl and winning it is Allen’s trajectory. So not progressing towards that is a step back. You’re right it isn’t just 1 one. It’s a pattern. If you’re not progressing you’re regressing. Hopefully he and the team will take the next step this coming season. Cheers!

[Aimee75]

9 hours ago, first_and_ten said:

 

I've been a Bills fan for over 40 years. Had season tickets during the Super Bowl years. Don't try to say that I'm not a Bills fan because I have an opinion on a certain topic. How long have you been a fan, 2 years? And yes, he had odd's on him to win MVP, but no real knowledgeable person thought he had any chance to win it. No one with the most turnovers would ever win it. Just because I didn't think he was ever a serious candidate to win the award doesn't mean I'm not a big Josh Allen fan. I am certainly a fan, and I would give anything to just win one Super Bowl. I suffered through a lot of lean years and then suffered through 4 Super Bowl losses.

Dak Prescott was second and he's been roasted because of it. Mahomes had 12, Burrow I believe had 15. I wouldn't say anyone had a ton of turnovers, even Josh didn't have , in your words, a ton. Yes, turnovers are part of his play, but go back and look at some of them. Even he admits many of them were preventable. He has to do better and he's the first to admit that. Kudos to him for saying that. 

 

I'd like to know how you turned my comments into me hating Josh Allen as our QB. I think he is probably going to go down as our best ever. I just questioned his total commitment based on what I see in the off season. This is why I think your take on my take is dumb. Because I questioned his total commitment this off season, not his ability as a quarterback. He's been great for the most part. Without him at his best, they have no shot. My initial point was saying that maybe Diggs was trying to make a statement concerning the commitment of the coaches and maybe even Josh. I said this spat may end up helping the team in the long haul. Look back on all my posts. I am not a troll. 

No I have not been a fan for two years. I have been an avid Bills fan since 1988. 

 

No knowledgeable person thought Josh would win MVP? You serious? He came in 2nd in 2020, and quite frankly I think he should have gotten it that year. He was very much in the race last season, till his elbow injury. 

 

I don't understand fans of this team, who claim to be lifelong, bitching so much about a QB who has pretty much brought this organization back to life, especially after a 17 year drought. It's freaking strange to me. This team is not stacked like the 90's Super Bowl teams were. We got Allen, and we got Diggs. That is it. There are no Kent Hulls on this team, or Howard Ballards, no James Lofton type, no Thurman Thomas type RB's, certainly no Bruce Smiths. I don't get the comments about Allen over on this forum, and it's something I have noticed since the season ended.

 

I never said you "hated" Allen. I don't know you enough to know that. I just don't think his offseason has any bearing on how he will play. If he wants to golf and go on dates with Hailee Steinfeld, I don't think that is remotely an issue. He shows up at OTA's and all that, and aside from that, we literally have no idea what is happening behind the scenes as far as what he is doing in the off season. Just because we don't see it, doesn't mean it's not happening.