Bills hire new WR coach Adam Henry

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Joe Brady was WR coach at LSU when they had Justin Jefferson and JaMarr Chase. Pretty impressive.

[Augie]

12 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Joe Brady was WR coach at LSU when they had Justin Jefferson and JaMarr Chase. Pretty impressive.

 

I suspect you could be WR coach at LSU for a year or two and get an NFL job. You might have to show up for some practices and probably attend game days. What a CRAZY WR factory! 

[boyst]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

 What recent stuff?

Coaching changes that did and did not change. 

 

Diggs is big on loyalty and being genuine. He's not happy right now. He's becoming a distraction. 

6 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

not happy with Chad Hall or?

With anything related to the bills right now. He wants to win. 

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, boyst said:

Coaching changes that did and did not change. 

Diggs is big on loyalty and being genuine. He's not happy right now. He's becoming a distraction. 

With anything related to the bills right now. He wants to win. 

 

You know that Diggs is unhappy about coaching changes (or lack of changes) how?

You know that Diggs is unhappy with anything related to the Bills right now how?

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Beck Water

[boyst]

27 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

You know that Diggs is unhappy about coaching changes (or lack of changes) how?

You know that Diggs is unhappy with anything related to the Bills right now how?

 

Do I have to answer twice?

 

Just from what has been said aloud by him publicly and then to teammates. They saw him change during the year. He's not alone in the frustration. 

 

I'm going to go get the papers, get the papers. 

[Beck Water]

6 minutes ago, boyst said:

Do I have to answer twice?

 

Just from what has been said aloud by him publicly and then to teammates. They saw him change during the year. He's not alone in the frustration. 

 

I'm going to go get the papers, get the papers. 

 

“Coaching changes” 

 

“Anything related to the Bills” 

 

Two different statements, suggesting that two different answers may be required.

 

I don’t think he’s said anything publicly that indicates unhappy about “anything related to the Bills” or coaching changes/lack of coaching changes.  With how the season ended, sure.

 

I have no idea what he’s said to teammates - how would I know?

 

For that matter, how would you know?

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Beck Water

[boyst]

20 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

“Coaching changes” 

 

“Anything related to the Bills” 

 

Two different statements, suggesting that two different answers may be required.

 

I don’t think he’s said anything publicly that indicates unhappy about “anything related to the Bills” or coaching changes/lack of coaching changes.  With how the season ended, sure.

 

I have no idea what he’s said to teammates - how would I know?

 

For that matter, how would you know?

 

He has shown distress publicly and been overheard making statements.

 

To put it different for now. He's not invested in this process, doesn't believe in it is perhaps best said. 

[Figster]

50 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

“Coaching changes” 

 

“Anything related to the Bills” 

 

Two different statements, suggesting that two different answers may be required.

 

I don’t think he’s said anything publicly that indicates unhappy about “anything related to the Bills” or coaching changes/lack of coaching changes.  With how the season ended, sure.

 

I have no idea what he’s said to teammates - how would I know?

 

For that matter, how would you know?

 

How do you think Ken Dorsey matches up with Andy Reid? All our innovation went out the door with Daboll. Why do you think Diggs is so angry? Its the QB, the OC, or both since their joined at the hip now. I knew this was a mistake. We did the same damn thing not replacing Ted Marchibroda for Kelly...

Edited February 17, 2023 by Figster

[Beck Water]

11 hours ago, Figster said:

How do you think Ken Dorsey matches up with Andy Reid? All our innovation went out the door with Daboll. Why do you think Diggs is so angry? Its the QB, the OC, or both since their joined at the hip now. I knew this was a mistake. We did the same damn thing not replacing Ted Marchibroda for Kelly...

 

Dude, first off, we have some serious revisionist history going on with Daboll. 

 

Could Daboll be creative?  Sure. 

 

Was he too cute for his own good in 2018, his first year here?  Absolutely he was.  I spent literally hours watching all-22 trying to figure out what the hell he was trying to do with certain run plays, begging some of the knowledgeable guys here to help me sort it out.

 

Did he stay too cute for his own good at times?  Sure!  Consider 2021 - we opened the season unable to get any offense going against a Steelers game plan we had no answers for.  Daboll's idea to foil teams bracketing Beasley was to add Sanders so teams couldn't bracket both and go 5 wide, well Keith Butler had a plan for that.  We got blown out against the Colts, stalled out against the Jaguars, and had some questionable play calling against the Titans.  There were times when people had "solved" us and we had no answers.

 

I can remember people here, last year, complaining that Daboll's offense had become too predictable, no creativity, we weren't able to scheme guys open in the intermediate passing game, etc etc.  Let's not pretend that with Daboll at OC the Bills were an infalliable juggernaut of offensive perfection.  Let's also not pretend that there wasn't a sizeable contingent of fans here ready to move on from him as OC.

 

Second, a team simply doesn't go 13-3 in the regular season, #2 offense, lose the 3 games we lost by a combined 8 points, if "all our innovation went out the door with Daboll".  Sorry, you do need some innovation on offense to do that.  Did our offense have flaws, sure, but Josh wasn't hurling moon shots down the field too much at times because he had no other options. 

 

Are you right that Dorsey may be a mistake at OC?  Perhaps.  I'm with Joe Buscaglia, who opined that running it back with Dorsey as OC may be the biggest risk the Bills are taking this season.  Dorsey needs to take a step, especially in the red zone and with crafting sequences of plays.  But Josh may need to take a step there too.  I think sometimes Dorsey does have things schemed up for Josh, that he doesn't see or take, including in the RZ.  That's my real question - I feel there's a coaching disconnect between Josh and Dorsey and Brady at times, where Daboll had smacked Josh with a board between the eyes as a young raw QB that Josh would listen to him, while Dorsey and Brady don't have his attention.  I don't know if that's fixable.  

 

I do believe we need more OL talent and more WR talent, and that's not on Dorsey.  With Brown and Beasley (younger and higher level of skill) in 2020 and with Sanders and Beasley in 2021, Daboll had more to work with.

 

But let's quit with the "Daboll great infalliable innovator Dorsey no innovation at all bletch puke" line, it doesn't pass the memory check.

 

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Beck Water

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

On 2/15/2023 at 4:01 PM, Success said:

 

This board would do a 180 if we signed OBJ - everyone would be excited about it.  And that's because it would be exciting. 

 

When healthy, he is still a top receiver, and would solve our problem at WR2 - allowing us to focus on the O-line and other needs in the first few rounds of the draft.

 

I've bolded the "when healthy" part, he's only been healthy twice since 2014 when he was drafted and now has 2 surgically repaired knees. I wouldn't be all that excited but of course I'd root for him to succeed but the odds are against him closing out the season imo.

[BCAS Baritone]

The one thing that stood out to me this year, was the number of times Josh would throw the ball to a spot and there were 2 WR's within a few feet of each other there.   And the two were usually Davis and McKenzie To me, that's most likely a coaching issue.  It could be the design of the play by Dorsey and the reads the receivers are making, which would be a Dorsey problem, or it could be what the WR coach is telling them, or it could be that the receivers are incapable of making the correct reads.  But there was a clear problem with people not running the correct routes.

[Big Turk]

Maybe he can #FreeShakir?  

 

 

[Not at the table Karlos]

20 minutes ago, BCAS Baritone said:

The one thing that stood out to me this year, was the number of times Josh would throw the ball to a spot and there were 2 WR's within a few feet of each other there.   And the two were usually Davis and McKenzie To me, that's most likely a coaching issue.  It could be the design of the play by Dorsey and the reads the receivers are making, which would be a Dorsey problem, or it could be what the WR coach is telling them, or it could be that the receivers are incapable of making the correct reads.  But there was a clear problem with people not running the correct routes.

I think it was Greg Cosell that said it was the play design. The routes on one side of field didn't mesh with the routes on the other side and we'd end up with multiple players in same area. 

[Beck Water]

6 hours ago, BCAS Baritone said:

The one thing that stood out to me this year, was the number of times Josh would throw the ball to a spot and there were 2 WR's within a few feet of each other there.   And the two were usually Davis and McKenzie To me, that's most likely a coaching issue.  It could be the design of the play by Dorsey and the reads the receivers are making, which would be a Dorsey problem, or it could be what the WR coach is telling them, or it could be that the receivers are incapable of making the correct reads.  But there was a clear problem with people not running the correct routes.

 

Yes, that stood out to me as well

[Beck Water]

6 hours ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

I think it was Greg Cosell that said it was the play design. The routes on one side of field didn't mesh with the routes on the other side and we'd end up with multiple players in same area. 

 

Negative, I heard that interview, and I'm pretty sure that's not what Cosell was talking about at all.

 

I believe what Cosell was talking about would be we'd have man-beater routes on one side and zone-beater routes on the other, but the timing of the reads wouldn't match up OR Josh would start his reads on the wrong side (zone side if it was actually man, man side if it was actually zone) - either way, guys weren't coming open in sequence as the reads progressed, so that by the time Josh would get to the other side of the field receivers who had uncovered were covered again.

 

I think a better interview on it was one McKenzie did where he talked about he and Davis having "option routes" where they could both choose their routes based on defensive coverage provided they didn't interfere with each other.  But, either the two of them weren't on the same page about route choice or how the routes were run so that they DID interfere with each other, or one or both of them weren't reading the defensive coverage correctly (thus not choosing a good route for the coverage), or, something else - but it clearly wasn't working correctly and they would wind up in the same area of the field, bringing defenders with them.

 

6 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Maybe he can #FreeShakir?  

 

 

 

OK, now maybe he can chart how often Shakir faced single man coverage?  Because I think he faced a lot of zone (the Bills in general faced a lot of zone), and he wasn't open too much there.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Beck Water

[3rdand12]

On 2/16/2023 at 5:54 PM, Warriorspikes51 said:

Many won’t like the idea….but OBJ + Landry would work for me.

 

- Diggs is buddies with both.

- Both likely want to prove a lot

- Landry is a nasty, physical blocker who can catch. All things the Bills desperately need.

- Landry said our new WR coach was like a father to him 

 

Diggs

OBJ

Landry & Shakir slot

Davis

draft pick

You pull that off and you have your pick of my daughters, or son depending>

That way we can draft O LINE

3 guards and one who is the center of the future
 

[3rdand12]

On 2/16/2023 at 7:04 PM, Beck Water said:

 

My $0.02.  Could be completely wrong.  History first:

 

In 2019, when Hall was promoted to WR coach, he had experienced WR John Brown, Cole Beasley and then Zay Jones and Isaiah McKenzie, who couldn't run routes at the time and was strictly a "gadget guy".  Brown could get taken away by physical coverage and Beasley could be bracketed; Daboll tried to compensate with Duke Williams and others in the playoffs but it wasn't enough

 

 2020, Stefon Diggs, John Brown, Cole Beasley - very experienced group.  Gabe Davis excelled at blocking and started to see some routes, as did McKenzie.  All of the WR raved about Chad as a coach, and bought him a truck for Christmas.  Receivers did get taken away in the AFCCG

 

2021, Stefon Diggs, Emmanuel Sanders, Cole Beasley - again, very experienced group now with Gabe Davis really coming on and McKenzie showing up against man coverage.

 

2022, now we have Diggs and a much less experienced group who need to be coached up - Davis as the #2, McKenzie/Crowder as the slot guys, Hodgins, Gentry

The end result was bringing Brown and Beasley off the sofa.  Now, injuries to Crowder and Kumerow aren't Hall's fault.  But just maybe, he was too close to the "squad" to give them the hard coaching they needed at times - to run crisper routes (Davis), to do wet ball drills more if that's what they needed to catch better in cold, wet weather.    Davis and McKenzie both failed to take the expected step.   Why were they the guys we were counting on?  Did Hall go to the matt that they could get the job done, only to see them squib? 

 

And, it was a different dynamic with Diggs as the only established, high quality veteran.  Maybe that produced a dynamic that was harder for Hall to deal with constructively?  Was getting a gift console from McKenzie as "one of the squad" an indication of a coach who fell into the trap of being too close to the players?

 

I think it may very much have been a mutual decision for Hall to move on.  I think the Bills wanted a more experienced WR coach who they had more confidence in developing a rookie and some younger players while maintaining the respect of veteran guys.  Also, if Hall pounded the table for Gabe as #2 and McKenzie as his slot, the Bills may have lost a bit of confidence in his player personnel e v a l.

 

All speculation, but Henry has coached some pretty big names:

"Henry came to IU from the Dallas Cowboys and he brought some clout to the role in Bloomington.  He coached NFL Pro Bowlers Odell Beckham Jr., Anquan Boldin, Amari Cooper, CeeDee Lamb, Jarvis Landry, and Zach Miller.  Henry also coached Beckham and Landry at LSU."

 

I don't think there's a question that he's both a more experienced WR coach than Hall, and has developed some guys.

 

 

Thank for taking the time here to put 2 cents into our Gumball machine 😏

And know I love ya when  I respond.
 You look at these matters deeply enough , and the trajectory certainly has merit.

 Are you suggesting that Hall might have unable to adjust to the changing of the guard in regard to the WRs room ?
  I struggle with that a bit. But not discounting the formula by any means, it happens for sure.
Dynamics are real in a Team environment
 

 This past season our receivers looked kinda crappy to me with route running and awareness. Does that suddenly happen? Davis is a fine example. As you mentioned he was doing some pretty good stuff. Brown had some fine moments and Beasley was a Josh Favorite till injuries brought him to a crawl.

 McK was a gadget player not a WR per se.
Diggs has always been Diggs. Till he got pretty PO'ed this season more than once
I feel there is more to the story and it culminated this last season.
 

and we all know, at least I hope by now I will have a dead horse to beat still in Dorsey. No offense to horses, they are awesome animals by far
But that is what changed post Brian Daboll (who played a horizonal passing game that included vertical routes to success ) More holistic game ?
 

Now

beyond that 

I am really learning to look forward to this new fellow as WRs Coach as I read a bit more

 and as Always

 Thank you Beck Water 😆

 

 Go Bills
 

 

[3rdand12]

6 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

Thank for taking the time here to put 2 cents into our Gumball machine 😏

And know I love ya when  I respond.
 You look at these matters deeply enough , and the trajectory certainly has merit.

 Are you suggesting that Hall might have unable to adjust to the changing of the guard in regard to the WRs room ?
  I struggle with that a bit. But not discounting the formula by any means, it happens for sure.
Dynamics are real in a Team environment
 

 This past season our receivers looked kinda crappy to me with route running and awareness. Does that suddenly happen? Davis is a fine example. As you mentioned he was doing some pretty good stuff. Brown had some fine moments and Beasley was a Josh Favorite till injuries brought him to a crawl.

 McK was a gadget player not a WR per se.
Diggs has always been Diggs. Till he got pretty PO'ed this season more than once
I feel there is more to the story and it culminated this last season.
 

and we all know, at least I hope by now I will have a dead horse to beat still in Dorsey. No offense to horses, they are awesome animals by far
But that is what changed post Brian Daboll (who played a horizonal passing game that included vertical routes to success ) More holistic game ?
 

Now

beyond that 

I am really learning to look forward to this new fellow as WRs Coach as I read a bit more

 and as Always

 Thank you Beck Water 😆

 

 Go Bills
PS

I did not feel Brian D was the end all be all. Although he has made it to HC and done nicely in the position his 1st year
 But i do sincerely feel we played a smaller game offensively this year. Sean always talked about multiples on offense and defense from week to week.
By mid season i felt some kind of desperation to put the game on Josh's back.

 

 

[Beck Water]

12 hours ago, 3rdand12 said:

Thank for taking the time here to put 2 cents into our Gumball machine 😏

 

Might be about all my contributions are worth

 

12 hours ago, 3rdand12 said:

And know I love ya when  I respond.
 You look at these matters deeply enough , and the trajectory certainly has merit.

 Are you suggesting that Hall might have unable to adjust to the changing of the guard in regard to the WRs room ?
  I struggle with that a bit. But not discounting the formula by any means, it happens for sure.
Dynamics are real in a Team environment

 

I'm not sure that's exactly what I'm suggesting.  But different teaching and different coaching styles work better for different guys. 

 

Let's suppose, as a WR coach, Hall is excellent at coaching up some fine points for experienced WR - better release, better fake, better footwork at the cut.

 

Let's suppose he's not so good at something else, like teaching a young WR how to identify the defense and adjust his route to find the soft spot in a zone, or how to dissect coverage tendencies and choose an option route.  (Now I don't know that's the case, but on one of his shows with Ty Dunne talking about Beasley, McKenzie said that Cole had done a lot for him has a young WR, had really taught him to watch film and read defenses.)  Or let's say Hall is a bit too much "one of the squad" and doesn't push the receivers to running extra drills they hate, wet ball drills with cold balls, for example.

 

Now, with Diggs, Sanders, and Beasley - coaching the fine points is what's needed.  Those guys have probably forgotten more about watching film and ID'ing a D than Hall knows.  And they have hands, dry wet cold.

 

OTOH, with Davis, McKenzie, and Shakir, maybe what's needed is something Hall wasn't as good at, coaching hard at more fundamental points.  And they need to practice catching wet and wet, cold balls more.  They need to experiment with different gloves.  McKenzie needs to be pushed to catch with his hands.  What pushes guys?  Well, when there are a lot of vets in the room, the vets push the guys.  They serve as both an example, and a source of practical advice.

 

Maybe Hall's coaching strengths were a match for what Diggs, Sanders, Brown, Beasley needed, but less of a match for Davis and McKenzie and Shakir needed.  I don't know that it's true, but it seems possible.  If it's true that Davis and McKenzie went to Beane and asked him to bring Beasley back, that would argue they see a gap or a dynamic they hope Beasley will change.

 

Then toss in that with Diggs, I'm not sure what you have is a true leader of men.  I think there's a great big "I" in Diggs, and that he can be oblivious and not sufficiently self-aware.  His tweets complaining about having to cook himself dinner on Dec 27 are an example of that.  The driving ban in the City of Buffalo wasn't lifted until Dec 29th.  Supermarkets and neighborhood markets are struggling to get in food supplies.  People are struggling to get to markets and buy food.  We're just a couple days out from conditions where some people literally died because they made a decision to walk or drive to a market and got stuck.  And this guy's whinging on Twitter about having to cook for himself?  DUDE!

 

So maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not sure he's going to be the one sitting down with Shakir or Hodgins and saying "work on this when you release" or sitting down with Davis and McKenzie and saying "hey, run this route this way".  So if that's something Hall didn't excel at, and that Beasley and Sanders or Brown did but Diggs doesn't, now you're missing something that maybe the coaches don't even know was being done.

 

12 hours ago, 3rdand12 said:

Diggs has always been Diggs. Till he got pretty PO'ed this season more than once

I feel there is more to the story and it culminated this last season.

 

There may be more to the story, but this is a guy who is leading the team in targets - by a lot.  154 targets.  McKenzie and Davis together have 158 targets.  And he's complaining that he isn't getting the ball, in front of TE and WR who actually AREN'T Getting the ball when they're open - not by privately going up to the QB and saying "hey, #23 is playing me this way, but I can do this and get open" or "I'm there for you bro, I was open on 2nd down, hit me I'll make you right", but by waving his arms and yelling on the sideline.    Giant "I", no self awareness.

 

12 hours ago, 3rdand12 said:

and we all know, at least I hope by now I will have a dead horse to beat still in Dorsey. No offense to horses, they are awesome animals by far
But that is what changed post Brian Daboll (who played a horizonal passing game that included vertical routes to success ) More holistic game ?

 

I think Dorsey had more horizontal components to his play design than folks realize.  I also think he was trying to make up for the protection deficiencies of the OL by leaving in an RB to protect and having the TE chip and release, which limits what can be done downfield in a passing game, especially if Josh won't hit those short routes.

[JGMcD2]

8 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Might be about all my contributions are worth

 

 

I'm not sure that's exactly what I'm suggesting.  But different teaching and different coaching styles work better for different guys. 

 

Let's suppose, as a WR coach, Hall is excellent at coaching up some fine points for experienced WR - better release, better fake, better footwork at the cut.

 

Let's suppose he's not so good at something else, like teaching a young WR how to identify the defense and adjust his route to find the soft spot in a zone, or how to dissect coverage tendencies and choose an option route.  (Now I don't know that's the case, but on one of his shows with Ty Dunne talking about Beasley, McKenzie said that Cole had done a lot for him has a young WR, had really taught him to watch film and read defenses.)  Or let's say Hall is a bit too much "one of the squad" and doesn't push the receivers to running extra drills they hate, wet ball drills with cold balls, for example.

 

Now, with Diggs, Sanders, and Beasley - coaching the fine points is what's needed.  Those guys have probably forgotten more about watching film and ID'ing a D than Hall knows.  And they have hands, dry wet cold.

 

OTOH, with Davis, McKenzie, and Shakir, maybe what's needed is something Hall wasn't as good at, coaching hard at more fundamental points.  And they need to practice catching wet and wet, cold balls more.  They need to experiment with different gloves.  McKenzie needs to be pushed to catch with his hands.  What pushes guys?  Well, when there are a lot of vets in the room, the vets push the guys.  They serve as both an example, and a source of practical advice.

 

Maybe Hall's coaching strengths were a match for what Diggs, Sanders, Brown, Beasley needed, but less of a match for Davis and McKenzie and Shakir needed.  I don't know that it's true, but it seems possible.  If it's true that Davis and McKenzie went to Beane and asked him to bring Beasley back, that would argue they see a gap or a dynamic they hope Beasley will change.

 

Then toss in that with Diggs, I'm not sure what you have is a true leader of men.  I think there's a great big "I" in Diggs, and that he can be oblivious and not sufficiently self-aware.  His tweets complaining about having to cook himself dinner on Dec 27 are an example of that.  The driving ban in the City of Buffalo wasn't lifted until Dec 29th.  Supermarkets and neighborhood markets are struggling to get in food supplies.  People are struggling to get to markets and buy food.  We're just a couple days out from conditions where some people literally died because they made a decision to walk or drive to a market and got stuck.  And this guy's whinging on Twitter about having to cook for himself?  DUDE!

 

So maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not sure he's going to be the one sitting down with Shakir or Hodgins and saying "work on this when you release" or sitting down with Davis and McKenzie and saying "hey, run this route this way".  So if that's something Hall didn't excel at, and that Beasley and Sanders or Brown did but Diggs doesn't, now you're missing something that maybe the coaches don't even know was being done.

 

 

There may be more to the story, but this is a guy who is leading the team in targets - by a lot.  154 targets.  McKenzie and Davis together have 158 targets.  And he's complaining that he isn't getting the ball, in front of TE and WR who actually AREN'T Getting the ball when they're open - not by privately going up to the QB and saying "hey, #23 is playing me this way, but I can do this and get open" or "I'm there for you bro, I was open on 2nd down, hit me I'll make you right", but by waving his arms and yelling on the sideline.    Giant "I", no self awareness.

 

 

I think Dorsey had more horizontal components to his play design than folks realize.  I also think he was trying to make up for the protection deficiencies of the OL by leaving in an RB to protect and having the TE chip and release, which limits what can be done downfield in a passing game, especially if Josh won't hit those short routes.

I know this isn't directly related to your post here... 

 

But it's entirely plausible that Chad Hall just moved on for personal reasons... I see it happen all the time. It's really not that crazy of an occurrence.