Rare Unity on TBD

[uticaclub]

I got a nickel back when i made change today. It felt soft so i threw it on the ground

17 minutes ago, Real McNasty said:

He is 47-18 his last 4 seasons as HC with 3 straight Division titles.

 

How do you move on in all seriousness? 

 

 

The Bucs won in 02 because they fired Dungy when it became obvious he wasnt a playoff coach

[Behindenemylines]

25 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Yesterdays game was not about the coaches.

 

We were simply outmatched. Physically. 

 

The talent discrepancy was glaring.

 

Could the coaches have made better decisions to make it a bit closer? Sure. But the reason we lost is the Bengals are better.

I wholeheartedly disagree.  We have talent, though I agree not as in abundance as Cincy, but we have talent.  Our coaches just don’t put them in good positions.   Why rush then play 10 yards off the guy we Know will be getting the ball?  How do we not get to the QB -ever?  Why do we even have RBs on the team when Allen is the leading rusher?  
 

it took 10 games to get Cook Involved.  Single tart was getting good solid yards then we stop what’s working and we just Bomb it out?   
 

I’ve been saying since early in the season FraZier was killing us and here is the results. I’m losing faith in McD because he should have taken full control of the D after the first drive. 
 

unless there are some wholesale changes in coaches we could have a teamfull of Allen’s and Diggs and still lose. 
 

Frasier is a losing coach, and Dorsey is over his head.  We need to give Allen every weapon possible and protection. If he had the time Burrow had we would be unstoppable 

[PBF81]

10 minutes ago, bigduke6 said:

idc if Frasier stays or goes,  but that man,  did more with less,  than any other D coordinator this season.  

Not in the Front-4 he didn't.  That's probably our biggest problem.

 

Also, tag Beane here, the reason why we are limited to 2 LB sets is because on his watch we've never had more than two staring caliber LBs.

 

Except for Bernard last year, Beane hasn't drafted one LB in his last 4 drafts on days 1 or 2.  Given the complete vacancy in the starting role there ...

Edited January 23, 2023 by PBF81

[uticaclub]

7 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

 

Aside from the 17 year drought and all the winning we have been doing the past few years, the fact that the Sabres have been playing embarrassing hockey 11 of the last 12 years under Pegula gives me major pause when it comes to the changing of any guard.

 

Things could get as bad as it has ever been for this franchise.

 

Eichel wasnt Allen. Tanking for Eichel is one of the worst decisions a sports franchise has ever made

[Real McClappy]

3 minutes ago, uticaclub said:

The Bucs won in 02 because they fired Dungy when it became obvious he wasnt a playoff coach

Well when Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer are your starting QB's what do you expect? He won a ring with Manning in Indy.

 

 

[LabattBlue]

8 minutes ago, bigduke6 said:

Ooops what?   why dont you tell me the answer to your question.

You claimed that the slippery conditions led to the Bengals offense having an advantage. Where was that same advantage for the Bills offense. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by LabattBlue

[uticaclub]

Just now, Real McNasty said:

Well when Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer are your starting QB's what do you expect? He won a ring with Manning in Indy.

 

 

Yea he won one in Indy after being embarressed in playoffs year in and year out. Manning ended up going to 3 without Dungy, only one with him.

[BuffaloRebound]

5 minutes ago, bigduke6 said:

idc if Frasier stays or goes,  but that man,  did more with less,  than any other D coordinator this season.   guys were missing all over the place.   rookies trying to fill in.  3rd string guys playing.   its a miracle the D played as well as they did all season.    Frasier held them together with duct tape and scheme.   yes it didnt work against an offense with 4 legit weapons on a day where it was so slippery the D couldnt anticipate and break on throws.   stuff happens.   we won games because of Frasier.

Yes, there were injuries, but name me a defense that has this many vets and this much money and high draft picks invested in it.  Our entire starting back 7 made north of 8M per year outside of our 1st round pick at CB this year.  And our D Line had 2 first round picks, 2 round picks, Von Miller, Jones at $8m per year, Settle at $5m per year, and Phillips and Lawson.  Frazier/Mcdermott have been given everything they want on D and when the chips are on the line, the D gets their asses handed to them.  Let’s change philosophy and start spending more money and draft resources on the offensive side.  

[PBF81]

11 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

 

Aside from the 17 year drought and all the winning we have been doing the past few years, the fact that the Sabres have been playing embarrassing hockey 11 of the last 12 years under Pegula gives me major pause when it comes to the changing of any guard.

 

Things could get as bad as it has ever been for this franchise.

 

With a healthy Allen here, it can only be so bad.

 

Alternate take: 

Without Allen here it's more of the same of "the last 20 years."

 

This is a 5-12/6-11 team without Allen.  It's not good otherwise.  Allen is carrying ALL the coaches' water.  

[bigduke6]

1 minute ago, LabattBlue said:

You claimed that the slippery conditions led to the Bengals offense having an advantage. Where was that same advantage for the Bills offense. 

mbe because Cincy was calling plays that allowed Burrow to get rid of the ball in under 3sec.    u know,  that same infuriating stuff that Brady did if a D played a certain way.   Frasier and McD have always played this D as bend but dont break.   so with the terrible footing,  were damn well playing dont break.   so if u adjust to the short stuff to stop that,  then the long ball opens up.   our O didnt adjust,  thats not on Frasier.     this banged up defense relied on the other team screwing up,   it just didnt happen,  not many dropped balls,  etc.

 

of course the conditions favor the offense when its slippery.   ask Dorsey why Josh had no time,  why we couldnt run slants or short stuff.  ask him why we havent been able to run a screen since Thurman and Kelly.   fact is,  the conditions do matter.   

[Seventeen]

9 minutes ago, uticaclub said:

Eichel wasnt Allen. Tanking for Eichel is one of the worst decisions a sports franchise has ever made

 

I thought we were tanking for McDavid but you can add taking Reinhart over Draisaitl as well.

[LabattBlue]

2 minutes ago, bigduke6 said:

mbe because Cincy was calling plays that allowed Burrow to get rid of the ball in under 3sec.    u know,  that same infuriating stuff that Brady did if a D played a certain way.   Frasier and McD have always played this D as bend but dont break.   so with the terrible footing,  were damn well playing dont break.   so if u adjust to the short stuff to stop that,  then the long ball opens up.   our O didnt adjust,  thats not on Frasier.     this banged up defense relied on the other team screwing up,   it just didnt happen,  not many dropped balls,  etc.

 

of course the conditions favor the offense when its slippery.   ask Dorsey why Josh had no time,  why we couldnt run slants or short stuff.  ask him why we havent been able to run a screen since Thurman and Kelly.   fact is,  the conditions do matter.   

Nvm. Not arguing with someone who likes to move the goalposts to fit their reply. 

[PBF81]

16 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

Playoffs are what matters and our Defense has failed miserably against KC(2) & CIN these past 3 years. 

Average of 33 points per game (in regulation) allowed in four playoff games against KC (2), Miami, and Cinci.  Two of those were home games 

[bigduke6]

2 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Nvm. Not arguing with someone who likes to move the goalposts to fit their reply. 

lol ok.  find somebody else to argue with then.   suits me fine cupcake.  nothing i said isnt a fact.  i know nobody gives an f about actual facts nowadays though.   for somebody that was just looking for a fight,  you sure gave up easy.

Edited January 23, 2023 by bigduke6

[LabattBlue]

Just now, bigduke6 said:

lol ok.  find somebody else to argue with then.  suits me fine cupcake.

Oooh, calling me a cupcake.  Ouch. 
 

🖕🏻🖕🏻🖕🏻

[PBF81]

18 minutes ago, uticaclub said:

I got a nickel back when i made change today. It felt soft so i threw it on the ground

The Bucs won in 02 because they fired Dungy when it became obvious he wasnt a playoff coach

This team has reached its ceiling under McBeane. 

 

Beane's "solutions" via the draft are not solutions, and McD is incapable of out coaching the better coaches in the league. 

 

How long are we going to rest on comparisons to "the last 20 years."  I mean if THAT'S the standard it's a ridiculously low bar.  

 

As to Beane, if Allen gets hurt we'll be right back there, maybe worse.

[SectionC3]

9 minutes ago, bigduke6 said:

mbe because Cincy was calling plays that allowed Burrow to get rid of the ball in under 3sec.    u know,  that same infuriating stuff that Brady did if a D played a certain way.   Frasier and McD have always played this D as bend but dont break.   so with the terrible footing,  were damn well playing dont break.   so if u adjust to the short stuff to stop that,  then the long ball opens up.   our O didnt adjust,  thats not on Frasier.     this banged up defense relied on the other team screwing up,   it just didnt happen,  not many dropped balls,  etc.

 

of course the conditions favor the offense when its slippery.   ask Dorsey why Josh had no time,  why we couldnt run slants or short stuff.  ask him why we havent been able to run a screen since Thurman and Kelly.   fact is,  the conditions do matter.   

 

I completely agree about conditions.  I knew we were trouble on the first play from scrimmage.  Edmunds had responsibility for the receive (Chase, IIRC) in zone, and Burrow went right at him.  The pickins’ only got easier thereafter.  We tried to move out safeties around a little bit post-snap, but it just wasn’t there.  

[CircleTheWagons99]

1 hour ago, Real McNasty said:

For me it's simple, get Allen a top 5 NFL Offensive line and the Bills on O will be unstoppable. Throw in another Solid WR and we are golden.

 

Seriously, enough of our High resources on defense. I hope most fans and TBD see this as well. 

 

 

Been saying it for years, since a guy names Drew was QB. The Bills online is always a weak link. 

[PBF81]

1 minute ago, CircleTheWagons99 said:

Been saying it for years, since a guy names Drew was QB. The Bills online is always a weak link. 

Last great OL we had was during the SB years.  Hull, Wolford, Ritcher, Ballard. 

 

Oh, wait, maybe THAT'S why we went to the Super Bowl.

 

Call us nuts!

[Billsfan1972]

58 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Yesterdays game was not about the coaches.

 

We were simply outmatched. Physically. 

 

The talent discrepancy was glaring.

 

Could the coaches have made better decisions to make it a bit closer? Sure. But the reason we lost is the Bengals are better.

No it was the Coaches.  Cincy, with a bad OL, had 3 out and still dominated.

 

After two drives January 2, the Bills come out and allow 2 TD drives yesterday at home.  

 

14-7 and just before half as bad as everything was going the script easily could have been flipped, but terrible coaching & play calling.  First & goal to start the second half and again three dud plays.

 

Cincy did not steamroll Balt two weeks in a row at home (and Huntley moved the ball).  TB dominated them for a half too.  

 

If it makes you feel better that Cincy talentwise is superior, go ahead, I disagree.

[Steptide]

Beane and McDermott are not the issue, though ultimately they're in charge. Frazier and Dorsey need good hard looks. Is it them, or is it some of the players on the field 

[Mark92]

34 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

Not just us... WGR personalities are echoing the same sentiments.  Openly saying that all options should be on the table this off-season. 

For anyone not listening to WGR I highly recommend it. They are not happy with one bills drive this morning.  

[Mark Vader]

10 minutes ago, Mark92 said:

So you are happy with running everything back next year?  Same everything just a few different players?

I am not in complete unity with this "Everyone needs to be fired!" mentality on the board.

 

However, I do agree that changes need to be made. 13 seconds was really tough to take, but yesterday was embarrassing.

 

I cannot dismiss McDermott. His record is very good and he's done a great job in making the Bills contenders. However, McDermott needs to have more pressure on him going forward. We cannot tolerate what happened yesterday and act like everything will be fine.

 

Brandon Beane is not going anywhere, and shouldn't be. He has a big task ahead of himself and big decisions need to be made. Primarily with the coaching staff. I'm confident that Beane will also make the right moves in free agency and I am not as hard on him when it comes to his drafts. I'm not saying that his drafts are perfect, but they are not garbage either.

 

Leslie Frazier has got to go. I've seen enough. We have talented players on defense, but this scheme and approach has let us down in the playoffs. I understand the debate over who's defensive scheme this really is, Frazier's or McDermott's? Regardless of that, it's time to move on and find someone else to run our defense.

 

Ken Dorsey is difficult to figure out. I'm not that big on giving up on someone after one season, but I wouldn't be upset if they did. What's difficult about the offense and their issues is figuring out the problems. Is it all Dorsey's fault? Does Josh Allen have to improvise all of the time? 

It's obvious that we need to fix the O-Line, and that we need help at Wide Receiver, but does that mean we need to fix our play calling to?

Watching the offense this season was strange. We have an all-world talent at quarterback, but it appears that we have to depend on him and only him to win us games. In the long run, that cannot continue. If there is someone else who can do a better job of running the offense, I'm willing to see.

 

As for the players, there are some who can leave and who can stay.

I'm not going to bring down the players who have only been here for a year or two, because I believe that players like that deserve time to improve.

As I stated earlier, we need to fix the O-Line. If Mitch Morse decides to retire, then we have a major problem.

We really need help with our Guard positions. At Tackle, I think we are alright. We still don't know what we have with Tommy Doyle.

Wide Receiver needs to be looked at greatly. We all know that Gabe Davis took a step back this year, and the Isaiah McKenzie experiment should come to an end. We really need someone to compliment Diggs. 

As far as defense goes, the biggest issue is Tremaine Edmunds. Do we keep him at all costs or let him walk. I like Edmunds, but if we let him go, so be it.

Jordan Poyer has been a fantastic Safety for us, but his time is up.

I'd like for us to keep Shaq Lawson, he played a lot better than I expected and he would be good depth.

Really hoping that Micah Hyde does not retire, we cannot have two holes at Safety.

 

That's all I've got right now. Changes need to be made, and I think the organization knows this. Yet, I don't think we need to blow it all up.

[Ramza86]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

Yesterdays game was not about the coaches.

 

We were simply outmatched. Physically. 

 

The talent discrepancy was glaring.

 

Could the coaches have made better decisions to make it a bit closer? Sure. But the reason we lost is the Bengals are better.

 

We were certainly outcoached. The staff in Cinci has maximized the talent level of their players and called a great game. 

 

Joe Burrow was way too comfortable and literally made the correct throw almost every down. That is not ok when they have 3 backup offensive line. We made it really simple for their backups to play comfortably. No confusion...no pressure...no nothing.

 

Swap staffs and I believe we win the game.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Ramza86

[gordong]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

Yesterdays game was not about the coaches.

 

We were simply outmatched. Physically. 

 

The talent discrepancy was glaring.

 

Could the coaches have made better decisions to make it a bit closer? Sure. But the reason we lost is the Bengals are better.

sorry but I disagree coaching can and does make players better or worse...  why does a guy go from one team to another only to play at a prowl level...   Teller couldn't start in buffalo but in Cleveland he's a pro bowl player...  why because the coaches were asking him to do stuff he wasn't good at...   it happens all the time.  Do we have players that need to be upgraded 100% but the team that played yesterday lost 3 times all year...  they didn't just get bad over night.   they got out coached for the 4 time in the playoffs. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by gordong

[78thealltimegreat]

2 minutes ago, Mark92 said:

For anyone not listening to WGR I highly recommend it. They are not happy with one bills drive this morning.  

You are correct how two first round picks in Oliver and Rousseau…and two second round picks in AJ and Boogie couldn’t get any pressure on a team with 3 backup lineman. Is something they are having a field day with. 

[Sharky7337]

1 hour ago, Mark92 said:

We have a defensive minded head coach who's defense can't stop anything.  What I don't know is how much Control Frazier has.  Is the D his baby or does McDermott have Frazier run his system?  I think revamping OL and a new D Coordinator that can run their own system is what is needed.  I really liked this team and I hate that it ended this way.  

This is where I'd love to be a fly on the wall.

 

MCDermott has to sign off or be part of rhe defensive and offensive game planning you would think. 

 

I would love to know how much of this is on him. 

 

Same goes for talent evaluation and drafting influence.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

I’ve accepted that going deep into the playoffs is more luck than skill. Reload, refocus, try again next year. 

[Bob Jones]

1 hour ago, Real McNasty said:

For me it's simple, get Allen a top 5 NFL Offensive line and the Bills on O will be unstoppable. Throw in another Solid WR and we are golden.

 

Seriously, enough of our High resources on defense. I hope most fans and TBD see this as well. 

 

 

For the first 6 1/2 games (except for the Dolphins heat debacle) THIS YEAR, they did seem unstoppable. But since the 2nd half of that Packers game....and then Josh's elbow injury in the next game vs the Jets, things were very different.

[Brandon]

5 minutes ago, CircleTheWagons99 said:

Been saying it for years, since a guy names Drew was QB. The Bills online is always a weak link. 

 

Agreed.  They've been doing the same crap for at least that long.  They get their QB in place,  give him a couple of good supporting pieces,  fill in the rest with low picks,  castoffs and assorted trash,  and then expect the QB to hold the whole mess together.  When it inevitably fails,  the front office and coaches all stand around like morons wondering WTF happened and why it didn't work.   They've been doing it for 25 years.  

[Sharky7337]

1 hour ago, Seventeen said:

 

So you want to win offensive shootouts every week ? 

 

Ravens D did a decent job against the Bengals and & might have won if Lamar had played. 

 

Interior DL needs help - Poyer gone - Edmunds deal is not a sure thing - will Tre return to form - all things to consider.

The chiefs made the afc championship with one of the worst ranked defenses in the league. 

 

Time to get with the modern nfl.

 

Newsflash we lost both the last two playoff games one in a shootout, with these "statistically" awesome defenses.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Sharky7337

[ArdmoreRyno]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

Yesterdays game was not about the coaches.

 

We were simply outmatched. Physically. 

 

The talent discrepancy was glaring.

 

Could the coaches have made better decisions to make it a bit closer? Sure. But the reason we lost is the Bengals are better.

 

AH, so having Edmonds cover Chase on that first drive was due to being physically outmatched? Not coaching? 

 

3rd and 2 and we line Tre up SIX YARDS of Chase. That wasn't because of coaching? 

[Xwnyer]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

Yesterdays game was not about the coaches.

 

We were simply outmatched. Physically. 

 

The talent discrepancy was glaring.

 

Could the coaches have made better decisions to make it a bit closer? Sure. But the reason we lost is the Bengals are better.

interesting hearing the comments from some of the players post game and fans watching warm ups.  Something was off this team is spent emotionally and the energy wasn't there.   

[bigduke6]

1 minute ago, Xwnyer said:

interesting hearing the comments from some of the players post game and fans watching warm ups.  Something was off this team is spent emotionally and the energy wasn't there.   

certainly looked that way.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Mark92 said:

I don't post on here that often but I definitely lurk and read a lot.  I think we can all agree that it's rare to see such unity when it comes to a certain opinion.  Normally after the season ends you always get a thread or 2 about firing this coach or that coach or trading this player or that player.  What's unusual is it normally stops or you see rebuttal posts.  Yes it hasn't been 24 hrs yet but the majority of us realize something needs to change.  Is it the GM, the head coach, the Coordinators, position coach's or players?  Lots of opinions but we all seem to agree that major shakeup needs to happen.  We finally have Josh Allen here in Buffalo and we can't keep doing this.  If Beane truly wants to win a Super Bowl then EVERYTHING is on the table this morning.  Good job TBD and I hope we can keep their feet to the fire.  

 

Please don't confuse lack of expressing an opinion as "unity" with an opinion being expressed. 

 

A lot of sane and sensible posters normally avoid TBD for 24-48 hrs after a loss and even longer after a playoff loss.

 

So the opinions expressed may have merit, the opinions expressed may not have merit, but they don't represent "unity".

 

The Bills decided, after last year's playoff loss, that they needed to rebuild their DL, from the interior out. The two best players of the 4 they added didn't play, and 2 more were playing hurt.  We spent 1/5 of the game with Jaquan Johnson and Dean Marlowe as our safeties and half the game with Poyer and Jaquan Johnson.  We know Poyer has been playing on a torn meniscus.

 

Contrary to popular opinion, we CAN keep doing this or worse - and one of the ways to do that is to succumb to knee-jerk "fire everyone" itis.

 

There will be major changes among the players, because we can't afford to keep everyone.

 

[mjt328]

I've been watching this team for over 30 years.  Grew up with the 90s Bills, and suffered through the drought.

 

One thing I've realized is... none of the other stuff matters, if you aren't able to bring home a Super Bowl championship.  Not long ago, younger fans were getting their first taste of success (in their lives) and that was enough.  But now after three seasons of feeling close, and then falling short... they are realizing the AFC East title doesn't mean jack.

 

I would rather this team shoots for the stars and totally misses the playoffs, than has another season like this.

[Seventeen]

15 minutes ago, Sharky7337 said:

The chiefs made the afc championship with one of the worst ranked defenses in the league. 

 

Time to get with the modern nfl.

 

Newsflash we lost both the last two playoff games one in a shootout, with these "statistically" awesome defenses.

 

https://www.covers.com/sport/football/nfl/statistics/team-defense/2022-2023

 

KC #11 in YPG and #16 in points allowed with ~21 PPG. Middle of the pack. 

 

SF has done pretty well with their D in the modern NFL as has Philly. 

 

I don't disagree that we need to spend on offense, but we can't neglect the D totally. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Seventeen

[Sharky7337]

12 minutes ago, Seventeen said:

 

https://www.covers.com/sport/football/nfl/statistics/team-defense/2022-2023

 

KC #11 in YPG and #16 in points allowed with ~21 PPG. Middle of the pack. 

 

SF has done pretty well with their D in the modern NFL as has Philly. 

 

I don't disagree that we need to spend on offense, but we can't neglect the D totally. 

Red zone defense KC is 31 out of 32.

 

Bills are like top 5.

 

So what is that getting us?

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Sharky7337

[MPL]

In defense of Beane... the offense was seemingly unstoppable by the end of last season (and even at the beginning of this season). They didn't punt in like, 4 out of 5 games. It was the defense, primarily lack of pass rush that was this team's achilles heel. So, Beane went out and got Von Miller and for the first half of this season, the Bills pass rush was top 2 or 3 in the league. Then Von got hurt and everything went to *****. I can't blame Beane for that.

I don't know what happened to the offense this year. They got derailed at some point (some point out the Green Bay game) and never really got seemed to get it back. I remember at the beginning of the season saying that Josh was reading defenses pre-snap as well as Brady or Manning. He was efficient, always knew when to go to his hot reads, and knew when to take the big shots downfield. By the end of the year, it felt like Josh was not reading defenses well, and this felt most apparent in both playoff games. Against Miami and Cincinnati, Josh struggled to identify free rushers off the edge and both teams had success with blitzing Josh (something that was a death sentence to defenses in 2020 and 2021). 

I don't know what went wrong this year. It was probably a myriad of things all working together. For most of the year, I felt the o-line wasn't good enough. But then, yesterday, I watched Joe Burrow carve us up with 3 starters out on his o-line and it became very apparent that a QB who is reading the defense well can overcome a bad o-line by helping them know where pressure is coming from and getting the ball out quickly. Well, it also helped that Buffalo had never played on snow before and couldn't get their footing. 

I don't know what to feel today. I hope they invest heavily in the o-line and finally make a commitment to adding a running game. I'd like to see this team built more like Philadelphia. 

 

Anyway, I forgot what this thread was even about halfway through typing this. 

[PBF81]

25 minutes ago, Seventeen said:

 

https://www.covers.com/sport/football/nfl/statistics/team-defense/2022-2023

 

KC #11 in YPG and #16 in points allowed with ~21 PPG. Middle of the pack. 

 

SF has done pretty well with their D in the modern NFL as has Philly. 

 

I don't disagree that we need to spend on offense, but we can't neglect the D totally. 

We've pretty much been neglecting the O in favor of the D on McD's watch.

 

Compare the day 1 & 2 draft picks.  Numerous D players, only 2 OL-men, none on day 1.  Ford, who sucks and is gone, and Brown.