2022 MVP: Mahomes wins. Allen gets 1 vote? (42 TDs, 19 TOs, 315 YPG & 63.3%% Comp %--EOY talk 54+)

[Billl]

20 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I'm not ignoring the fact that Allen has more turnovers. In fact it's been widely publicized😂😂

 

Are you ignoring the fact that he also has more TDs over the last 3 years?

124 TDs for Mahomes

129 TDs for Allen

 

50 INTs and fumbles for Mahomes

69 INTs and fumbles for Allen

 

So Josh had 5 more TDs and 19 more INTs and fumbles over that span.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Billl said:

124 TDs for Mahomes

129 TDs for Allen

 

50 INTs and fumbles for Mahomes

69 INTs and fumbles for Allen

 

So Josh had 5 more TDs and 19 more INTs and fumbles over that span.

How about that

[Meatloaf63]

38 minutes ago, Billl said:

So it’s unreasonable for me to say that Josh is likely a HOFer but Mahomes is clearly the better QB?  Both have been the starters for 5 seasons.  Allen has made the playoffs 4 times.  Twice he has lost to Mahomes, and twice he lost to a team that Mahomes beat the following season.  

 

Mahomes has made the playoffs 5 times.  He’s made 5 AFCCGs, 3 SuperBowls, and has won 2 MVPs.  Most recently, he received 48/50 first place votes for MVP.  Josh, with a healthy offense, just scored 10 points against the Bengals.  Mahomes, playing on one leg with his top 4 WRs out due to injury scored 24 the following week.  If he were to announce his retirement tomorrow, he’d be a first ballot HOFer.

 

They are both great players and it’s a hell of a rivalry, but they aren’t equal.  To argue otherwise would be unreasonable.

Who had better protection against Cincinnati?  And to say healthy offense we didn’t have Crowder or kumero. I’m watching the first game of the year and I think Crowder was a bigger loss than I thought he was. And Kumero’s blocking was certainly missed. But that being said the real difference is Mahomes is willing to take the short pass and the design of their short game is certainly ahead of ours. So until Josh is willing to take what is given consistently, Mahomes will be ahead of him. Collingsworth actually said Josh looked like Tom Brady out there, but as the season wore on, Josh lost that part of his game, it’s the biggest thing that separates the two. In the end, you can only play the schedule they give you, and play with the teammates you have. With the way the season ended and how Josh was playing, you have to give the nod to Mahomes. Josh could easily close the gap if he’s mentally capable of changing his game. 

[GoBills808]

11 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

Claiming that KCs receivers and backs are a lot better than the Bills.  Simply not true by any objective standard.

 

Kelce and Diggs cancel each other out for the most part and everything else is a wash.

 

 

Kelce is better at TE than Diggs at WR, I mean if you want to call that a wash be my guest but saying Juju and Gabe Davis are equivalent is really pretty crazy

[Billz4ever]

1 minute ago, Meatloaf63 said:

Who had better protection against Cincinnati?  And to say healthy offense we didn’t have Crowder or kumero. I’m watching the first game of the year and I think Crowder was a bigger loss than I thought he was. And Kumero’s blocking was certainly missed. But that being said the real difference is Mahomes is willing to take the short pass and the design of their short game is certainly ahead of ours. So until Josh is willing to take what is given consistently, Mahomes will be ahead of him. Collingsworth actually said Josh looked like Tom Brady out there, but as the season wore on, Josh lost that part of his game, it’s the biggest thing that separates the two. In the end, you can only play the schedule they give you, and play with the teammates you have. With the way the season ended and how Josh was playing, you have to give the nod to Mahomes. Josh could easily close the gap if he’s mentally capable of changing his game. 

While Josh is the one throwing the ball, I have to say Dorsey's playcalling must have something to do with it.  I think Daboll was better able to keep Josh grounded and not looking for the homerun ball every time.  It seems Dorsey tends to feed Josh's bad habits at times and they have to do better there.

[Billz4ever]

17 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Kelce is better at TE than Diggs at WR, I mean if you want to call that a wash be my guest but saying Juju and Gabe Davis are equivalent is really pretty crazy

LMAO, Kelce played in 1 more game than Diggs did this season and had two more catches and 1 more TD.  Diggs had more yards.

 

In 16 games, Juju had 933 yards and 3 TDs.  In 15 games, Gabe had 836 yards and 7 TDs in what was considered a bad season.

 

Please tell me you have more than this to demonstrate KCs receivers and backs are much better than the Bills.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Billz4ever

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

LMAO, in one more game than Diggs had, Kelce had two more catches and 1 more TD.  Diggs had more yards.

 

In 16 games, Juju had 933 yards and 3 TDs.  In 15 games, Gabe had 836 yards and 7 TDs in what was considered a bad season.

 

Please tell me you have more than this to demonstrate KCs receivers and backs are much better than the Bills.

That's their production, I was talking about general quality because I thought that was the discussion

 

If you want to argue Allen gets more from less we are certainly aligned😂😂👍

[Billz4ever]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

That's their production, I was talking about general quality because I thought that was the discussion

 

If you want to argue Allen gets more from less we are certainly aligned😂😂👍

No, we are discussing the talent level KC vs Buffalo in the receiver corps and backs.

 

And you still haven't come close to proving KCs are clearly better than the Bills.  Not by a long shot.

 

 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Billz4ever said:

No, we are discussing the talent level KC vs Buffalo in the receiver corps and backs.

 

And you still haven't come close to proving KCs are clearly better than the Bills.  Not by a long shot.

 

 

Kelce>Diggs is not controversial imo

 

Neither is Juju>Gabe Davis

 

But you are entitled to oppose

[Billz4ever]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Kelce>Diggs is not controversial imo

 

Neither is Juju>Gabe Davis

 

But you are entitled to oppose

You're wrong, provided zero stats to back up your claim.  Is Kelce the best TE in football?  Yes.  Does he produce more for the offense than Diggs? No

 

But you are entitled to oppose

 

[Billl]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Kelce>Diggs is not controversial imo

 

Neither is Juju>Gabe Davis

 

But you are entitled to oppose

When you’re down to arguing about the difference between Kelce and Juju vs Diggs and Davis, it’s probably time to admit that your position isn’t very strong.

[Billz4ever]

1 minute ago, Billl said:

When you’re down to arguing about the difference between Kelce and Juju vs Diggs and Davis, it’s probably time to admit that your position isn’t very strong.

He knows it's not, but is pot-committed at this point.

 

Guess I also should probably not point out that Mahomes did what he did this year minus a guy that caught 119 balls for 1700 yards in Miami this year.

 

Wouldn't want to hurt his argument any further.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Billl said:

When you’re down to arguing about the difference between Kelce and Juju vs Diggs and Davis, it’s probably time to admit that your position isn’t very strong.

That's literally the topic. I'm more than willing to say it's it's a difference of degrees and not kind.

 

 

[FireChans]

The bottom line is that this year is EASILY the closest comparison of Allen’s and Mahomes’ weapons. Whether one is slightly better than the other is kind of irrelevant. The more relevant point is the KC OL is way better than the BUF OL and that’s why they are in the Super Bowl and we are golfing.

[GoBills808]

Pot committed is a term for people who don't t understand how to play😂😂

[Billz4ever]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

The bottom line is that this year is EASILY the closest comparison of Allen’s and Mahomes’ weapons. Whether one is slightly better than the other is kind of irrelevant. The more relevant point is the KC OL is way better than the BUF OL and that’s why they are in the Super Bowl and we are golfing.

I would also add lack of a Bills pass rush that has to do with a combination of injuries and a lack of personnel, but on-point there.

[Billl]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

The bottom line is that this year is EASILY the closest comparison of Allen’s and Mahomes’ weapons. Whether one is slightly better than the other is kind of irrelevant. The more relevant point is the KC OL is way better than the BUF OL and that’s why they are in the Super Bowl and we are golfing.

This is a much more valid argument than the comparison of weapons.  Kansas City did have the better OL this year and last year.  That said, he made the SuperBowl two years ago with 5 different starters on the line.  

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, Billl said:

This is a much more valid argument than the comparison of weapons.  Kansas City did have the better OL this year and last year.  That said, he made the SuperBowl two years ago with 5 different starters on the line.  

And got smoked. Which is why they went out and focused on it (and nailed it tbh)

[Billz4ever]

Just now, FireChans said:

And got smoked. Which is why they went out and focused on it (and nailed it tbh)

 

And if we don't do the same this offseason, we'll get smoked next season too.  

[Meatloaf63]

30 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

While Josh is the one throwing the ball, I have to say Dorsey's playcalling must have something to do with it.  I think Daboll was better able to keep Josh grounded and not looking for the homerun ball every time.  It seems Dorsey tends to feed Josh's bad habits at times and they have to do better there.

Absolutely, I don’t think we can know for sure. But I have a hard time believing that Dorsey is consistently telling Allen to go long when shorter safer options are available on second and third downs. It is something that needs to be figured out. I am now watching the Titans game after watching the Rams game. It’s shocking watching this compared to how the last 8 or 9 games went. Passes out quick, 5 to 15 yards passes to Gilliam out of the backfield. Sprinkled in some runs, this set up the occasional long shot. And when they took the long shot it tended to be wide open cause we weren’t throwing it every other pass. Zack Moss was still annoying 🤦‍♂️ But the offensive strategy was completely different than the end of the year.

[FireChans]

Just now, Billz4ever said:

 

And if we don't do the same this offseason, we'll get smoked next season too.  

We have tried which is a little more depressing. We have drafted guys like Ford/Brown.  Signed FA's like Saffold. Just haven't hit.

 

I FIRMLY believe that if Cody Ford turns out to be a solid starting G, like top 15 in the NFL, we would have already made a Superbowl. That whiff hurt.

[Billz4ever]

1 minute ago, Meatloaf63 said:

Absolutely, I don’t think we can know for sure. But I have a hard time believing that Dorsey is consistently telling Allen to go long when shorter safer options are available on second and third downs. It is something that needs to be figured out. I am now watching the Titans game after watching the Rams game. It’s shocking watching this compared to how the last 8 or 9 games went. Passes out quick, 5 to 15 yards passes to Gilliam out of the backfield. Sprinkled in some runs, this set up the occasional long shot. And when they took the long shot it tended to be wide open cause we weren’t throwing it every other pass. Zack Moss was still annoying 🤦‍♂️ But the offensive strategy was completely different than the end of the year.

It's just so odd and is hard to pin down the cause.

 

It was like...we've got this great way of keeping the chains moving, but we don't want to do it anymore.  We want to repeatedly chuck it 40 yards instead. 

 

 

[Meatloaf63]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

We have tried which is a little more depressing. We have drafted guys like Ford/Brown.  Signed FA's like Saffold. Just haven't hit.

 

I FIRMLY believe that if Cody Ford turns out to be a solid starting G, like top 15 in the NFL, we would have already made a Superbowl. That whiff hurt.

Getting rid of Teller was even more painful…

[Billz4ever]

3 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said:

Getting rid of Teller was even more painful…

The more and more I think about the whiffs we've had, to include the DL, it just makes me more and more depressed and makes me think we suck at evaluating talent.

 

I still can't believe we paid Saffold $6M to come here.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Billz4ever

[Billl]

10 minutes ago, FireChans said:

And got smoked. Which is why they went out and focused on it (and nailed it tbh)

Smoked with 4 backups playing on that line, yes.  He also won the season before when his starters were healthy.  At some point, the QB is what really matters.  If they were to start over with 5 new starters next year, I still like his chances to be back in the SuperBowl at least once in the next few seasons.
 

This season, the Chiefs had $172m of cap not allocated to Mahomes.  The Bills had $192m not allocated to Allen.  The narrative that Josh is somehow a victim of a bad roster is laughable.

[Meatloaf63]

1 minute ago, Billz4ever said:

It's just so odd and is hard to pin down the cause.

 

It was like...we've got this great way of keeping the chains moving, but we don't want to do it anymore.  We want to repeatedly chuck it 40 yards instead. 

 

 

When it first started I was being hard on Allen telling the people I regularly watched with that this was not a way for continued success. But we kept squeaking out victories, and everyone kept saying be happy they are winning you don’t know what you are talking about. Well it finally caught up to us, and if we don’t fix it, we have topped out. We can’t win in the playoffs expecting the long game to provide victories.

[Billz4ever]

2 minutes ago, Billl said:

Smoked with 4 backups playing on that line, yes.  He also won the season before when his starters were healthy.  At some point, the QB is what really matters.  If they were to start over with 5 new starters next year, I still like his chances to be back in the SuperBowl at least once in the next few seasons.
 

This season, the Chiefs had $172m of cap not allocated to Mahomes.  The Bills had $192m not allocated to Allen.  The narrative that Josh is somehow a victim of a bad roster is laughable.

 

A lot of that comes down to the quality of those players in those big contracts.  We have a ton of money tied up just in Tre White and Von.  Tre hopefully can play better next year after a full offseason and camp because he didn't look the same.  Von went down and will probably miss time going into next season.  

 

We've got bad contracts like Ed Oliver who is not worth the $10M he'll make next year.  Saffold, while not breaking the bank, wasn't anywhere near the $6M he got.

 

 

[Meatloaf63]

1 minute ago, Billl said:

Smoked with 4 backups playing on that line, yes.  He also won the season before when his starters were healthy.  At some point, the QB is what really matters.  If they were to start over with 5 new starters next year, I still like his chances to be back in the SuperBowl at least once in the next few seasons.
 

This season, the Chiefs had $172m of cap not allocated to Mahomes.  The Bills had $192m not allocated to Allen.  The narrative that Josh is somehow a victim of a bad roster is laughable.

That’s just dumb, just because we spent more doesn’t mean it was spent properly or wisely. If you think the two offensive lines are comparable, your takes are laughable. And if you don’t think that makes a difference you are even more ignorant on the subject. 

[Doc]

5 minutes ago, Billl said:

Smoked with 4 backups playing on that line, yes.  He also won the season before when his starters were healthy.  At some point, the QB is what really matters.  If they were to start over with 5 new starters next year, I still like his chances to be back in the SuperBowl at least once in the next few seasons.
 

This season, the Chiefs had $172m of cap not allocated to Mahomes.  The Bills had $192m not allocated to Allen.  The narrative that Josh is somehow a victim of a bad roster is laughable.

 

So what about the money commitment?  Players can and often times don't live up to their contracts.

 

The question comes down to this (since no one in their right mind would swap the Bills' OL and/or offensive coaches for the Chefs'): would you trade Allen's WRs, TEs and RBs for Mahomes'?

[Billz4ever]

Just now, Doc said:

 

So what about the money commitment?  Players can and often times don't live up to their contracts.

 

The question comes down to this (since no one in their right mind would swap the Bills' OL and/or offensive coaches for the Chefs'): would you trade Allen's WRs, TEs and RBs for Mahomes'?

I'd love to have Kelce, but I'm not giving up Diggs to do it, especially considering how we don't throw to the TE we have enough.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

12 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said:

Absolutely, I don’t think we can know for sure. But I have a hard time believing that Dorsey is consistently telling Allen to go long when shorter safer options are available on second and third downs. It is something that needs to be figured out. I am now watching the Titans game after watching the Rams game. It’s shocking watching this compared to how the last 8 or 9 games went. Passes out quick, 5 to 15 yards passes to Gilliam out of the backfield. Sprinkled in some runs, this set up the occasional long shot. And when they took the long shot it tended to be wide open cause we weren’t throwing it every other pass. Zack Moss was still annoying 🤦‍♂️ But the offensive strategy was completely different than the end of the year.

 

 Yeah, I just watched those 2 a week or so ago. CC said more good things about Josh week 1 than I've ever heard him say. In the past he would say things about him that seemed more like backhanded compliments. He was in full ball washing mode that night. When he compared Josh's play that night to that of Brady's, I nearly fainted.

 

 But Josh was playing far different then and the playcalling made so much more sense. Quick hitting passes, with some runs sprinkled in and calling/hitting the deep pass when it made sense. Most of the deep passes were coming in the 2nd half once the secondary started creeping up and sitting on the shorter routes. They were so well set up Josh either completed all or most of them iirc.

 

 

 

 

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

I'd love to have Kelce, but I'm not giving up Diggs to do it, especially considering how we don't throw to the TE we have enough.

 

If Josh had Kelce, he'd be throwing it to him as much as he does Diggs.

[Billz4ever]

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

If Josh had Kelce, he'd be throwing it to him as much as he does Diggs.

Well yeah, he'd kinda have to since he wouldn't have Diggs anymore. 😆

 

We know Davis isn't filling that role.

[Doc]

4 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

Well yeah, he'd kinda have to since he wouldn't have Diggs anymore. 😆

 

We know Davis isn't filling that role.

 

The point being Josh will throw to his best weapon more, regardless of being a WR or TE.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Doc

[FireChans]

25 minutes ago, Billl said:

Smoked with 4 backups playing on that line, yes.  He also won the season before when his starters were healthy.  At some point, the QB is what really matters.  If they were to start over with 5 new starters next year, I still like his chances to be back in the SuperBowl at least once in the next few seasons.
 

This season, the Chiefs had $172m of cap not allocated to Mahomes.  The Bills had $192m not allocated to Allen.  The narrative that Josh is somehow a victim of a bad roster is laughable.

He was also sacked 4 times in that Superbowl and forced into a decent amount of bad throws.

 

Don't get me wrong, they weren't as bad as they were the next year (which is why they lost) but it was a group that clearly needed an upgrade.

 

I disagree entirely with your hypothetical premise. There is a luck/chance element with everything. I think if the Chiefs lost 3 starters on the OL like the Bengals did, the Bengals would be in their second Superbowl in a row today. It's HARD to get to the big dance. KC has been in the AFCCG for 5 straight years and this is their 3rd Superbowl with Mahomes. Which is absolutely impressive and should be acknowledged. However, as much as he's a superstar, you're going to see some regression to the mean with that success. The history of the NFL tells us this.

 

NE with Brady had a similar feat. From 2012 to 2018, they went to 7 straight AFCCG, 3 SB wins, 1 SB loss. But over a course of 19 years, they didn't sustain that level.

Edited February 12, 2023 by FireChans

[Billz4ever]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

The point being Josh will throw to his best weapon more.

Of course.  That really goes without saying.  But my point is we have a pretty talented TE that isn't getting used as much as he should.  Would it happen more if he was Kelce?  Sure.

[Billl]

13 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said:

That’s just dumb, just because we spent more doesn’t mean it was spent properly or wisely. If you think the two offensive lines are comparable, your takes are laughable. And if you don’t think that makes a difference you are even more ignorant on the subject. 

So we’re back to pretending that the Bills roster is holding Josh back?  I already said the Chiefs have had a better line the past two seasons.  Josh has had a top 5 defense the past 3 seasons.  The playing field is, at worst, level.  
 

If you think the roster has been the problem, just wait until next year.  The Chiefs lost Matthieu, Ward, and Tyreek in the off-season while Buffalo added Von Miller.  This was likely the best roster Josh will ever have around him.  If he can’t figure out how to protect the football, it’s going to be awfully hard to get over the hump.

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Okay so on receiving backs, I agree. But I don't think that is because the Bills don't have the skillset - hell they traded a 5th round pick away for Nyheim Hines mid season. He only had 53 receiving yards in 9 games with the Bills. But in the previous four years of his career he averages 370 receiving yards per season. McKinnon has been in the league 8 years, but only played for 6 because of injuries. And prior to this year averaged 224 yards per season. They are basically neck and neck yards per clip reception and Hines averages over 4 yards per game more for his career. The Chiefs signed McKinnon as a low end free agent. It isn't like they went and traded for this established elite pass catching back as a weapon for Mahomes. Mahomes and Reid took a career complimentary pass catching back and turned him into a weapon. The Bills are yet to do that with Hines, although, no camp came in mid-season etc I accept there are reasons. But the argument here is about talent not usage. 

 

Hines played 11% of our offensive snaps since the trade. McKinnon played 47% of offensive snaps for the Chiefs. This is a Dorsey vs. Reid stat, not Allen vs. Mahomes.

 

Why we refused to use the explosive RB we traded for, couldn't tell you. Why we refused to throw the ball to the pass catching RB that we spent a 2nd round pick on, couldn't tell you. It goes to show that for all the talk of comparing talent, the biggest discrepancy between Allen and Mahomes this past season BY FAR is coaching. Mahomes got Andy Reid, whose experience designing plays and calling offenses goes without saying. Allen got a first year OC and first time play caller. This commonly gets ignored in the discussion.

 

So if you want to say the offensive weapons are a wash, okay, but there is no argument whatsoever with the offensive line and with the coaching. Why is there even a debate if their situations were comparable? It is not close. I would love to see what the Bills offense looks like for one drive with Case Keenum at QB starting at the 2 line. If anyone here thinks he leads us to a TD, I'd like to hear your reasoning.

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by HappyDays

[FireChans]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

Hines played 11% of our offensive snaps since the trade. McKinnon played 47% of offensive snaps for the Chiefs. This is a Dorsey vs. Reid stat, nor Allen vs. Mahomes.

 

Why we refused to use the explosive RB we traded for, couldn't tell you. Why we refused to throw the ball to the pass catching RB that we spent a 2nd round pick on, couldn't tell you. it goes to show that with all of talk of comparing talent, the biggest discrepancy between Allen and Mahomes this past season BY FAR is coaching. Mahomes got Andy Reid, whose experience designing plays and calling offenses goes without saying. Allen got a first year OC and first time play caller.

 

So if you want to say the offensive weapons are a wash, okay, but there is no debate whatsoever with the offensive line and with the coaching. Why is there even a debate if their situations were not comparable? It is not close. I would love to see what the Bills offense looks like for one drive with Case Keenum at QB starting at the 2 line. If anyone here thinks he leads us to a TD, I'd like to hear your reasoning.

I think there is a tremendous argument that pairing a good (not even HoF level, just good) offensive mind with a franchise QB is the secret to sustained success in the NFL.

 

I'm not advocating for firing McD.  But if I was starting a franchise tomorrow, I would try to pair an offensive HC with my franchise QB 10/10 times over a defensive guy.

 

Mahomes had Reid. Rodgers had McCarthy/LaFleur. Brady had BB as his HC, but had McDaniels for almost his entire tenure in NE. Goff/Stafford with McVay.  Zac Taylor and Burrow. 

 

It's no different than OL IMO.  You want continuity, familiarity and limited turnover around your franchise QB.  A great defensive mind is all well and good, but in the salary cap era, it's way easier to have a consistent offense with the same good-great QB over 15 years than great defenses. 

[HamSandwhich]

9 minutes ago, Billl said:

So we’re back to pretending that the Bills roster is holding Josh back?  I already said the Chiefs have had a better line the past two seasons.  Josh has had a top 5 defense the past 3 seasons.  The playing field is, at worst, level.  
 

If you think the roster has been the problem, just wait until next year.  The Chiefs lost Matthieu, Ward, and Tyreek in the off-season while Buffalo added Von Miller.  This was likely the best roster Josh will ever have around him.  If he can’t figure out how to protect the football, it’s going to be awfully hard to get over the hump.

What you said was a non-sequitor, Josh doesn’t play D, he would absolutely do better with an Oline