Two chances to close the door

[SectionC3]

Lost in the discussion of the blunders with respect to the 13 seconds is the fact that our defense had two chances to close the door following the two minute warning.  It blew them both.  So what needs to change? And what can we change?  Frankly I think we were gassed so I'm not entirely sure that it's fair to say that the defense as a whole is slow (as I've seen in other places). 

 

Maybe it's time for Frazier to go.  Maybe it's time to make some tough decisions and clear some cap space to acquire a pass rusher who can actually get home.  We're close, and it's up to Beane and McD to figure this out. 

[NoSaint]

3 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

Lost in the discussion of the blunders with respect to the 13 seconds is the fact that our defense had two chances to close the door following the two minute warning.  It blew them both.  So what needs to change? And what can we change?  Frankly I think we were gassed so I'm not entirely sure that it's fair to say that the defense as a whole is slow (as I've seen in other places). 

 

Maybe it's time for Frazier to go.  Maybe it's time to make some tough decisions and clear some cap space to acquire a pass rusher who can actually get home.  We're close, and it's up to Beane and McD to figure this out. 

What discussion have you seen this lost in?!?

[BillsFanSD]

Finally somebody noticed that our defense might have played somewhat better toward the end of the game.

[damj]

5 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

Lost in the discussion of the blunders with respect to the 13 seconds is the fact that our defense had two chances to close the door following the two minute warning.  It blew them both.  So what needs to change? And what can we change?  Frankly I think we were gassed so I'm not entirely sure that it's fair to say that the defense as a whole is slow (as I've seen in other places). 

 

Maybe it's time for Frazier to go.  Maybe it's time to make some tough decisions and clear some cap space to acquire a pass rusher who can actually get home.  We're close, and it's up to Beane and McD to figure this out. 

They need an upgrade at LB. Edmunds is medicore at best and is not a difference maker. His constant lack of production puts more stress on the other 10 guys on the field

1 minute ago, BillsFanSD said:

Finally somebody noticed that our defense might have played somewhat better toward the end of the game.

Yes, Josh willed this team to the lead twice and they blew it both times.

[BillsFanSD]

Okay, serious answer.  After the first "game winning" TD, I wouldn't come down too hard on the defense.  It's asking an awful lot to stop Mahomes when he has two minutes, three timeouts, and all four downs to work with.  Frankly I expected KC to score in that situation.  If the tables were reversed, I would expect Allen to score.  And he did of course, when the tables were actually reversed.

 

After the second "game winning" TD, I think everybody should come down extremely hard on the defense.  If Jesus Christ Himself were under center you should be able to stop Him from getting into FG range with just 13 seconds left on the clock.  No excuses for that one.

Edited January 24, 2022 by BillsFanSD

[SectionC3]

4 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

What discussion have you seen this lost in?!?

 

The myopic focus on the 13 seconds.  Let's be real. Poyer doesn't get caught flat footed and the game is different.  Frankly, if Hill went down before scoring they could have choked us out.  But our D blew it TWICE.  And that's far worse than just one round of stupid strategy with 13 seconds on the clock. 

[damj]

1 minute ago, SectionC3 said:

 

The myopic focus on the 13 seconds.  Let's be real. Poyer doesn't get caught flat footed and the game is different.  Frankly, if Hill went down before scoring they could have choked us out.  But our D blew it TWICE.  And that's far worse than just one round of stupid strategy with 13 seconds on the clock. 

3 times. Don't forget OT

[SectionC3]

Just now, BillsFanSD said:

Okay, serious answer.  After the first "game winning" TD, I wouldn't come down too hard on the defense.  It's asking an awful lot to stop Mahomes when he has two minutes, three timeouts, and all four downs to work with.  Frankly I expected KC to score in that situation.  

 

After the second "game winning" TD, I think everybody should come down extremely hard on the defense.  If Jesus Christ Himself were under center you should be able to stop Him from getting into FG range with just 13 seconds left on the clock.  No excuses for that one.

 

Awful lot to ask of the #1 defense, you say?  Where was the pass rush?  A nuisance last night, but really didn't get home.  What happened to the waves of D-linemen?  Gassed at the end.  So was the whole defense, too, when we have LBers running several miles on drops and chasing little people across the field all night.  They need to re-think the whole deal, Mahomes or not.  

Just now, damj said:

3 times. Don't forget OT

 

I actually give them a pass on the OT.  Whichever team got the ball was going to score.  That was obvious.  There was no energy left in either D. 

[SoCal Deek]

6 minutes ago, BillsFanSD said:

Okay, serious answer.  After the first "game winning" TD, I wouldn't come down too hard on the defense.  It's asking an awful lot to stop Mahomes when he has two minutes, three timeouts, and all four downs to work with.  Frankly I expected KC to score in that situation.  If the tables were reversed, I would expect Allen to score.  And he did of course, when the tables were actually reversed.

 

After the second "game winning" TD, I think everybody should come down extremely hard on the defense.  If Jesus Christ Himself were under center you should be able to stop Him from getting into FG range with just 13 seconds left on the clock.  No excuses for that one.

Are you trying to say Jesus Christ couldn’t hit a curve ball? (Look it up)

[Billsfan1972]

I was more then happy when Tyreke scored and left 1:02 on the clock.  Otherwise they get a FG minimum and OT. 

 

It is all about the final 13 seconds and massive coaching blunders. 

[SectionC3]

2 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I was more then happy when Tyreke scored and left 1:02 on the clock.  Otherwise they get a FG minimum and OT. 

 

It is all about the final 13 seconds and massive coaching blunders. 

Me too.   Three timeouts and josh Allen was fine with me. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by SectionC3

[PetermansRedemption]

20 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

Lost in the discussion of the blunders with respect to the 13 seconds is the fact that our defense had two chances to close the door following the two minute warning.  It blew them both.  So what needs to change? And what can we change?  Frankly I think we were gassed so I'm not entirely sure that it's fair to say that the defense as a whole is slow (as I've seen in other places). 

 

Maybe it's time for Frazier to go.  Maybe it's time to make some tough decisions and clear some cap space to acquire a pass rusher who can actually get home.  We're close, and it's up to Beane and McD to figure this out. 

Well, gassed doesn’t explain why they gave up 550 yards total. Those weren’t all in the final two minutes. They were just poor all game long. They didn’t make one play when needed at any time in last nights game. This loss is entirely on them. 

[colin]

highest or second highest paid dl and d in the nfl, way more top picks on d than on O.  (tre, edmunds, oliver, groot, star, houghs, not to mention 2nd rounders).  

 

coaching on game day, preporation, scheme, team construction, all of it just does not fit together over all.  number one we need to change the coaching.  frazier isn't about to wake up creative.  two, we need a play maker.  one single real pass rusher on this squad and we are talking about the home afc chip game.

 

sad!

[SectionC3]

21 minutes ago, PetermansRedemption said:

Well, gassed doesn’t explain why they gave up 550 yards total. Those weren’t all in the final two minutes. They were just poor all game long. They didn’t make one play when needed at any time in last nights game. This loss is entirely on them. 

 

No doubt they sucked.  But they're not old and slow like the Pats.  So what is it?  Lack of pass rush that gets home.  That's where I'm going with this. 

[CarolinaBillsFan]

1 hour ago, BillsFanSD said:

Okay, serious answer.  After the first "game winning" TD, I wouldn't come down too hard on the defense.  It's asking an awful lot to stop Mahomes when he has two minutes, three timeouts, and all four downs to work with.  Frankly I expected KC to score in that situation.  If the tables were reversed, I would expect Allen to score.  And he did of course, when the tables were actually reversed.

 

After the second "game winning" TD, I think everybody should come down extremely hard on the defense.  If Jesus Christ Himself were under center you should be able to stop Him from getting into FG range with just 13 seconds left on the clock.  No excuses for that one.

Totally agree!!!!!!!!!!

[billsfan1959]

6 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

 

No doubt they sucked.  But they're not old and slow like the Pats.  So what is it?  Lack of pass rush that gets home.  That's where I'm going with this. 

 

Always appreciate your posts. IMHO, the fourth quarter last night was an exhibition of the two greatest talents in the game putting everything of which they are capable on full display. Each of them was in an absolute zone and each defense was faced with the same problems in that last quarter (and the same opportunities to close the door). I have watched alot of football over the years and I don't recall seeing the absolute clinic I watched over the last 10 minutes or so of that game by both QBs. Play press coverage and they find the one mismatch, play off the receivers and they find them underneath or in the gaps, play perfect coverage and they somehow still complete the pass, blitz or bring any kind of pressure and they kill you with their abilities to make plays off script with their arms and their legs...etc., etc. 

 

If Allen got the ball 1st in OT, I think the Chiefs are asking the exact same questions today.

 

Again, IMHO, what we saw defensively from both sides in that last quarter was as much a result of (1) the problems Allen and Mahomes uniquely present and (2) the level at which they were actually playing, as it was poor defensive execution. Honestly, I'm not sure anything either team tried defensively was going to work at te end of that game.

[No_Matter_What]

1 hour ago, BillsFanSD said:

Okay, serious answer.  After the first "game winning" TD, I wouldn't come down too hard on the defense.  It's asking an awful lot to stop Mahomes when he has two minutes, three timeouts, and all four downs to work with.  Frankly I expected KC to score in that situation.  If the tables were reversed, I would expect Allen to score.  And he did of course, when the tables were actually reversed.

 

After the second "game winning" TD, I think everybody should come down extremely hard on the defense.  If Jesus Christ Himself were under center you should be able to stop Him from getting into FG range with just 13 seconds left on the clock.  No excuses for that one.

This 100%. I'll just add (not that it is needed) that those 13 second are on coaching. What we have done was good if they needed a TD, but horrible when preventing FG. I am no expert, but if Hill and Kelce are so wide open twice AFTER we took TOs in both situations (?), then something is fundamentaly wrong with playcalling.

[SectionC3]

34 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

Always appreciate your posts. IMHO, the fourth quarter last night was an exhibition of the two greatest talents in the game putting everything of which they are capable on full display. Each of them was in an absolute zone and each defense was faced with the same problems in that last quarter (and the same opportunities to close the door). I have watched alot of football over the years and I don't recall seeing the absolute clinic I watched over the last 10 minutes or so of that game by both QBs. Play press coverage and they find the one mismatch, play off the receivers and they find them underneath or in the gaps, play perfect coverage and they somehow still complete the pass, blitz or bring any kind of pressure and they kill you with their abilities to make plays off script with their arms and their legs...etc., etc. 

 

If Allen got the ball 1st in OT, I think the Chiefs are asking the exact same questions today.

 

Again, IMHO, what we saw defensively from both sides in that last quarter was as much a result of (1) the problems Allen and Mahomes uniquely present and (2) the level at which they were actually playing, as it was poor defensive execution. Honestly, I'm not sure anything either team tried defensively was going to work at te end of that game.

 

I’m sort of with you on the “not sure anyone could have stopped anyone” approach.  I disliked the strategy with 13 second left.  Don’t mind the kick through the end zone; would have mugged everyone on the first play and rolled the bones on the second one.  I was thinking about it on the way into work today; I wonder if the passivity was borne of fear of Hill’s speed on a hook and ladder or similar misdirection.  Not sure.  Either day it didn’t work. 

 

Looking back, though, the game wasn’t won or lost on the 13 second.  S happens.  We couldn’t close the door on the prior drive, and we couldn’t get home on the pass rush and change the game at any point in the proceedings.  That was it.  And, if we really want to dive into things (a topic for another thread), we were on 22 at 58 minutes into the game.  Score more points and we don’t have this conversation.  

[Brennan Huff]

I hope the entire defense apologized to Josh after the game. 13 seconds. 13 ***** seconds. They might as well have been invisible. Everyone is talking about Edmunds, where were our all pro safeties? The ones who never get any respect? They did absolutely nothing all game…

[billsfan1959]

25 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

 

I’m sort of with you on the “not sure anyone could have stopped anyone” approach.  I disliked the strategy with 13 second left.  Don’t mind the kick through the end zone; would have mugged everyone on the first play and rolled the bones on the second one.  I was thinking about it on the way into work today; I wonder if the passivity was borne of fear of Hill’s speed on a hook and ladder or similar misdirection.  Not sure.  Either day it didn’t work. 

 

Looking back, though, the game wasn’t won or lost on the 13 second.  S happens.  We couldn’t close the door on the prior drive, and we couldn’t get home on the pass rush and change the game at any point in the proceedings.  That was it.  And, if we really want to dive into things (a topic for another thread), we were on 22 at 58 minutes into the game.  Score more points and we don’t have this conversation.  

 

As to the bolded in your 1st paragraph, I think Frazier as much as admitted they were worried about pressing too hard and getting beat in some way. I think it exemplified what I was saying that the level at which both QBs were playing dictated the "pick your poison to die by" defensive decisions. After watching those offensive performances last night, I don't think there is a person that doesn't believe, if the roles were reversed in those last 13 seconds, that Allen would have found a way to get his team in position for a game tying FG as well. Both QBs were unstoppable at that point.

 

There is a reason Allen and Mahomes are the top rated QBs in fourth quarter metrics. Once they have seen everything opposing defenses throw at them during a game, they will find a way to beat them.

 

As to the bolded in your 2nd paragraph, I agree 100%. For me, it is Daboll's insistence, at key moments in games when they absolutely needed a first down, to take the ball out of the hands of his top playmakers. The Bills had two 3 and out series last night in which Allen passed on 1st down and then they ran Singletary or McKenzie on 2nd and 3rd downs. To me, the most egregious was their 1st drive of the second half after the defense held KC to a field goal and a 17-14 KC lead. Allen completed a 1st down pass for 7 yards. On 2nd and 3 they run Singletary for 1 yard. On 3rd and 2, they run McKenzie for 1 yard. That, to me, might have been the most important first down that team needed all night. In a playoff game, in that situation, you put the ball in the hands of your best playmaker. Period. At that point, Allen literally had 3 incompletions passing and 50 yards rushing. He is the one the team should live and die by in that situation.

 

I have never seen two QBs play better in the fourth quarter of a playoff game and, in the end, whichever team was going to win this game came down to winning a coin toss.

[SectionC3]

7 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

As to the bolded in your 1st paragraph, I think Frazier as much as admitted they were worried about pressing too hard and getting beat in some way. I think it exemplified what I was saying that the level at which both QBs were playing dictated the "pick your poison to die by" defensive decisions. After watching those offensive performances last night, I don't think there is a person that doesn't believe, if the roles were reversed in those last 13 seconds, that Allen would have found a way to get his team in position for a game tying FG as well. Both QBs were unstoppable at that point.

 

There is a reason Allen and Mahomes are the top rated QBs in fourth quarter metrics. Once they have seen everything opposing defenses throw at them during a game, they will find a way to beat them.

 

As to the bolded in your 2nd paragraph, I agree 100%. For me, it is Daboll's insistence, at key moments in games when they absolutely needed a first down, to take the ball out of the hands of his top playmakers. The Bills had two 3 and out series last night in which Allen passed on 1st down and then they ran Singletary or McKenzie on 2nd and 3rd downs. To me, the most egregious was their 1st drive of the second half after the defense held KC to a field goal and a 17-14 KC lead. Allen completed a 1st down pass for 7 yards. On 2nd and 3 they run Singletary for 1 yard. On 3rd and 2, they run McKenzie for 1 yard. That, to me, might have been the most important first down that team needed all night. In a playoff game, in that situation, you put the ball in the hands of your best playmaker. Period. At that point, Allen literally had 3 incompletions passing and 50 yards rushing. He is the one the team should live and die by in that situation.

 

I have never seen two QBs play better in the fourth quarter of a playoff game and, in the end, whichever team was going to win this game came down to winning a coin toss.

 

I HATED the sequence on offense that you’re talking about.  And I can’t believe that we didn’t go for it on fourth down.  

 

I’ve been replaying the defensive sequence in my mind repeatedly.  The only thing I would have done differently is mug hill and Kelce on first down.  Otherwise, I kind of understand the idea of coming downhill to make a tackle and keeping every ing in front of the defenders.  It sucks that it didn’t work.  But I wonder if Hill’s speed and the last Chiefs touchdown in regulation (coupled with the fact that our coaches knew that our secondary was out of gas) contributed to that decision.  

 

Bottom line: the whole thing sucks.  I believe we would have won the Super Bowl had we stopped KC.  But we don’t need to blow anything up.  We’re the second best team in the league, and the margin is paper thin.  Get better in a few areas, and get a few lucky bounces next time, and we’ll be fine. 

[billsfan1959]

29 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

 

I HATED the sequence on offense that you’re talking about.  And I can’t believe that we didn’t go for it on fourth down.  

 

I’ve been replaying the defensive sequence in my mind repeatedly.  The only thing I would have done differently is mug hill and Kelce on first down.  Otherwise, I kind of understand the idea of coming downhill to make a tackle and keeping every ing in front of the defenders.  It sucks that it didn’t work.  But I wonder if Hill’s speed and the last Chiefs touchdown in regulation (coupled with the fact that our coaches knew that our secondary was out of gas) contributed to that decision.  

 

Bottom line: the whole thing sucks.  I believe we would have won the Super Bowl had we stopped KC.  But we don’t need to blow anything up.  We’re the second best team in the league, and the margin is paper thin.  Get better in a few areas, and get a few lucky bounces next time, and we’ll be fine. 

 

Agree on all points.

 

For me, the greatest take aways from last night's game are (1) that Allen truly is every bit as good as Mahomes, that they are the two best QBs in the game, and (2) that if anything, they need to surround Allen with more speed, more playmakers, and more talent along the offensive line. That is today's NFL. If surrounded by really good offensive talent, and playing to his abilities, Allen is going to win far more than he loses. And Allen and Mahomes are just at a different level than any other QBs.

 

When playing their best, like they did in the 4th quarter last night, I think the only time either loses is if they happen to be playing each other. 

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by billsfan1959

[T master]

When you play a team like the Chiefs you need to have that extra what ever to get it done i think our defensive front was applying pressure all game but Mahomes and Josh are unicorns one minute they are right there the next your going where the hell did he go i had his leg or jersey now he's 15 yards down the field .

 

That being said it's been proven that these guys although super man like have their Kryptonite which comes in knowing his weapons & putting him in position to not be able to utilize them .

 

I think the Bills defensive scheme is okay but not elite which is what you need against a team like that ! You can't just sit back and allow those weapons to do their thing & that is what i saw - with 13 seconds left one of the main weapons that Mahomes had at his disposal and is usually that guy is Kelsey you CANNOT let him free !
 

Mahomes, Kelsey & Hill are your 3 top priorities in that situation (i think you go press man coverage be aggressive especially on those 3) if by keeping them in check you get burned by another player then at least you covered the top priorities as to not get burned .

 

But with 13 seconds left on the clock Kelsey split i think it was Levi Wallace & Millano went right between the 2 of them with neither of them trying to stop him which you are allowed to hit a player with in 5 yards of the LOS so NAIL HIS ASS !! If nothing else you can disrupt the pattern but they let him run through with no resistance what so ever .

 

That was the play that allowed them the yardage they needed to get the field goal & tie up the score and it should have never made it that far !!  Josh did what he needed to so did the offense ! 

 

It comes down to 1 or 2 plays and that was the ONE - IMO because i don't think if they stop that one play there wasn't enough time for anything else but a possible miracle play & they were outside field goal range so unless that miracle happened game over !! 

[SectionC3]

42 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

The pass to Kelce to get into FG range was simply inexcusable…. Just a complete ***** up by the staff. Wallace is out in no mans land by the side lines as Kelce runs right past him up the middle of the field. Dudes protecting the sidelines when KC has one time out left and only 8 seconds at their own 44 yard line. Utter stupidity.  

 

Milano walked himself out of position.  In my view at least.  I hate the result, but I’m coming around on the concept.  Hill’s speed scared them.  Rightfully so, given what happened earlier. 

[Playoffs?]

Our gameplan (or lack thereof) in those final 13 seconds is what’s to blame. McD and Frazier flat out robbed this team of the win, and robbed Josh Allen of the credit he is due. They botched it. 
 

Squib or not, how you do not jam the WR’s at the line, and why we insisted on rushing 4 is just beyond me.  Rush 2, let Mahomes run around and burn clock, drop 2 more into coverage, and take holding penalties.  McD needs to address this. 
 

Our D sucked. But our coaching decisions decided this game. I feel horrible for Josh. He was flat out robbed.  
 

I seriously am hoping that type of backbreaking loss is one that fuels this team versus breaks them. Still sick to my stomach.