Silo wall collapse

[ExiledInIllinois]

39 minutes ago, T&C said:

I never knew this, interesting stuff coming out of this thread.

Why the Seaway mainly goes through Canada?  They can charge a toll on the Welland.   I think it's $25 per lock on Welland for pleasure craft (PC) and a ton more for ships.  There's 8 locks on Welland 25 miles to west of BFLo. Taking your little boat from L.Ontario to L.Erie will cost you $200 in tolls.

 

The legality of it if an All-American Canal ran from Tonawanda to say Wilson Harbor on L.Ontario:

 

Northwest Ordinance 1787 under the Articles of Confederation and then when Our Constitution was ratified in 1789, The Northwest Ordinance of 1789 was one of the first acts of Congress...  Basically, reaffirmed and left intact from 1787:

 

Article IV:

 

"...The navigable waters leading into the Mississippi and St. Lawrence, and the carrying places between the same, shall be common highways and forever free, as well to the inhabitants of the said territory as to the citizens of the United States, and those of any other States that may be admitted into the confederacy, without any tax, impost, or duty therefore."

 

They'd have to change the Northwesrt Ordinance of 1789 to start charging a toll in US. It's why our wateterways are toll free.  Niagara Falls is definitely a "carrying place." As is Chicago between Lakes and Mississippi watershed or any other place on the continental divide.

 

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by ExiledInIllinois

[QCity]

On 12/21/2021 at 4:12 PM, BuffaloBill said:

OK but what do you do with it? It just sits there as a historical artifact? 

 

"Jemal said some possibilities for reusing the Great Northern could be apartments – which he noted is being done at Silo City – manufacturing or, possibly, a tech hub."

 

"Jemal said he also would welcome the Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers Local 36G, which said before the mayor's announcement Friday that it wanted to explore the feasibility of reusing the structure as a union hall, credit union office and public museum."

 

If you told someone 10 years ago that you wanted to build a multipurpose indoor venue and restaurant on Ganson St. they would have laughed you out of the room. But alas, Riverworks. Jemel has certainly earned the benefit of the doubt.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

12 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Yes.  But it's not going through Canada. Jobs stay here... Provisioning the ships, the tugs, etc... 

 

Better than being treated like Radiator Springs in the movie "Cars."

 

Thing is... Through Canada they can charge a toll.  In US, by US law no toll could charged. No user fee. 

Had the canal you propose been built pre fourth Welland Canal (1932), the economic benefits you propose might well have been realized for Buffalo.  As shipping patterns are now, not much US traffic goes below the Welland Canal. One reason why the Canadian fleet doesn't look as well maintained as the US fleet, Canadian ships experience the 'wear and tear' of locking through the Welland and St. Lawrence canals.  

Edited December 23, 2021 by Ridgewaycynic2013

[ExiledInIllinois]

4 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

Had the canal you propose been built pre fourth Welland Canal (1932), the economic benefits you propose might well have been realized for Buffalo.  As shipping patterns are now, not much US traffic goes below the Welland Canal. One reason why the Canadian fleet doesn't look as well maintained as the US fleet, Canadian ships experience the 'wear and tear' of locking through the Welland and St. Lawrence canals.  

William T. Love began digging that lane in 1892.  We know what got filled in there! 😔😟 That was probably the dirty little secret nobody wanted to open after the war...

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

15 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Why the Seaway mainly goes through Canada?  They can charge a toll on the Welland.

 

 

[That's No Moon]

15 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Why the Seaway mainly goes through Canada?  They can charge a toll on the Welland.   I think it's $25 per lock on Welland for pleasure craft (PC) and a ton more for ships.  There's 8 locks on Welland 25 miles to west of BFLo. Taking your little boat from L.Ontario to L.Erie will cost you $200 in tolls.

 

The legality of it if an All-American Canal ran from Tonawanda to say Wilson Harbor on L.Ontario:

 

Northwest Ordinance 1787 under the Articles of Confederation and then when Our Constitution was ratified in 1789, The Northwest Ordinance of 1789 was one of the first acts of Congress...  Basically, reaffirmed and left intact from 1787:

 

Article IV:

 

"...The navigable waters leading into the Mississippi and St. Lawrence, and the carrying places between the same, shall be common highways and forever free, as well to the inhabitants of the said territory as to the citizens of the United States, and those of any other States that may be admitted into the confederacy, without any tax, impost, or duty therefore."

 

They'd have to change the Northwesrt Ordinance of 1789 to start charging a toll in US. It's why our wateterways are toll free.  Niagara Falls is definitely a "carrying place." As is Chicago between Lakes and Mississippi watershed or any other place on the continental divide.

 

 

That says it's free to inhabitants of the territory, citizens of any state, and citizens of any future state. Doesn't seem like a big reach to say you could toll a foreign flagged ship. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

Just now, That's No Moon said:

That says it's free to inhabitants of the territory, citizens of any state, and citizens of any future state. Doesn't seem like a big reach to say you could toll a foreign flagged ship. 

No. Read it again.  I quoted the 1787 Act under The Articles.   1789 after USC was ratified is virtually unchanged (ie: "Confederacy").

 

"...shall be common highways and forever free, AS WELL TO the inhabitants of the said territory as to the citizens of the United States, and those of any other States that may be admitted into the confederacy, without any impost, or duty therefore, "

 

That means it's free to all as common highways. The part you are wrongly interpreting is about slavery.

 

Notice how abolitionist values were creeping in very early @ the birth of Our Nation. 

34 minutes ago, \GoBillsInDallas/ said:

 

 

Nice!  Get EZ-Pass! 😆 

[That's No Moon]

34 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

No. Read it again.  I quoted the 1787 Act under The Articles.   1789 after USC was ratified is virtually unchanged (ie: "Confederacy").

 

"...shall be common highways and forever free, AS WELL TO the inhabitants of the said territory as to the citizens of the United States, and those of any other States that may be admitted into the confederacy, without any impost, or duty therefore, "

 

That means it's free to all as common highways. The part you are wrongly interpreting is about slavery.

 

Notice how abolitionist values were creeping in very early @ the birth of Our Nation. 

Nice!  Get EZ-Pass! 😆 

Serious not assy question. How do they charge tolls on the Erie Canal or Champlain Canal? Because they do now and did historically also.

[Slippery Rubber Mats]

On 12/12/2021 at 10:29 AM, Process said:

Good, time to start knocking down some of these old, ugly buildings around the city.

 

I submitted the idea that instead of like fireworks at the end of a game, or maybe like when the Sabres score or something, we blow up one of the old silo building instead. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

8 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

Serious not assy question. How do they charge tolls on the Erie Canal or Champlain Canal? Because they do now and did historically also.

Good question! 

 

"In 1817 the Erie Canal was established under the management of a New York State Commission. (Federal funds were sought, but were not legislated, so this canal and all subsequent canals in New York State were built and maintained exclusively with state funds.)"

 

The NWOrdinance doesn't apply to NYS... BUT they still don't charge a toll at the two Federal locks in NYS: Black Rock & Troy.  I ASSUME the precedent would apply to a federally funded All-American Canal had it been built in Niagara County. 

 

Eisenhower Lock (Seaway) there is a toll... BUT that's the actual river itself... Not navigable waters leading into it... And again, commission with Canada, right?

[That's No Moon]

14 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Good question! 

 

"In 1817 the Erie Canal was established under the management of a New York State Commission. (Federal funds were sought, but were not legislated, so this canal and all subsequent canals in New York State were built and maintained exclusively with state funds.)"

 

The NWOrdinance doesn't apply to NYS... BUT they still don't charge a toll at the two Federal locks in NYS: Black Rock & Troy.  I ASSUME the precedent would apply to a federally funded All-American Canal had it been built in Niagara County. 

 

Eisenhower Lock (Seaway) there is a toll... BUT that's the actual river itself... Not navigable waters leading into it... And again, commission with Canada, right?

So a privately funded or state funded canal in NYS would be able to charge a toll then. Yes?

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

@That's No Moon

 

Not to sidetrack the original topic... BUT probably why you didn't see NYS in on the lawsuit when the other Great Lakes States (sans Indiana) and the Indian Tribes were suing in Supreme Court to close the Chicago Canals a decade ago. NYS would lose their sovereignty when it came to their Waterway rights?... And they are in bed with Canada so many ways with... HydroPower, Seaway... Which is a joint federal commission,  right?

 

I don't think many noticed NYS didn't adjoin that suit when it went to SCOTUS over 10 years ago.  They were cheering on the sidelines though with Canada against Illinois/Indiana.

3 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

So a privately funded or state funded canal in NYS would be able to charge a toll then. Yes?

Yes. I would think so.

Great read: 

https://www.greatlakeswaterwars.com/

Edited December 23, 2021 by ExiledInIllinois

[T&C]

Looks like the fight is over, she's coming down.

 

https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/buffalo/news/2022/12/13/great-northern-grain-elevator-to-move-forward-after-denied-petition

[Buffalo716]

3 hours ago, T&C said:

Looks like the fight is over, she's coming down.

 

https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/buffalo/news/2022/12/13/great-northern-grain-elevator-to-move-forward-after-denied-petition

I’m chaining myself to the remaining wall

 

If she goes down I’m going down with her

[Nextmanup]

Knocking down historic architecture in favor of a new parking lot is kind of what Buffalo does best.

 

[BuffaloBud]

If this was to be saved or repurposed, why wasn't anything done?  Declaring it a landmark and then letting it become an eyesore or a safety issue doesn't mean it should stay upright.

[BuffaloBill]

13 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Knocking down historic architecture in favor of a new parking lot is kind of what Buffalo does best.

 

 

 

Ugh - this was truly an idiotic move - can’t change stupid nor can you redo history

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

20 hours ago, T&C said:

Looks like the fight is over, she's coming down.

 

13 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Knocking down historic architecture in favor of a new parking lot is kind of what Buffalo does best.

 

4 hours ago, BuffaloBud said:

If this was to be saved or repurposed, why wasn't anything done?  Declaring it a landmark and then letting it become an eyesore or a safety issue doesn't mean it should stay upright.

 

16 minutes ago, BuffaloBill said:

Ugh - this was truly an idiotic move - can’t change stupid nor can you redo history

 

I have to chuckle when people say the building could be "repurposed".

 

Here's the street view with the collapsed wall:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8682946,-78.872937,3a,75y,204.65h,96.57t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s0bUPhKJD-5Nc0pwV1KOLFQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D0bUPhKJD-5Nc0pwV1KOLFQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D134.55876%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

 

The "problem" with the building is that it was built for its intended use (grain silos, which can be seen in the exposed wall). And it was designed in such a way that the silos support the interior cross beams for the building.

 

So, the silos cannot be removed because, if they are, the roof and walls are no longer supported and the building would collapse on itself.

 

It's a similar issue like the old Maple Leaf Gardens in Toronto. The original plans were to "repurpose it" but they found out that the concourses and seating were actually holding up the walls of the building. So that why it ended up being used as a university athletic centre.

[Wacka]

23 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Knocking down historic architecture in favor of a new parking lot is kind of what Buffalo does best.

 

That's the Larkin Building  in the larkinville neighborhood (Swan and  Seneca Streets). Built by Frank Lloyd Wright. The Larkin Company closed  in 1942 and the building sat empty until 1950 and was  torn down then. The only part left, I believe, is the brick structure at the corner of the fence in this photo. 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Wacka

[BuffaloBud]

If this is what preservationists wanted to do with the structure they should have done it long time ago.

 

https://www.glasscityriverwall.org/