Rob's House Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, WideNine said: It was dumb of a 17 year old kid to travel to a protest armed with an assault rifle. Like somehow the local trained authorities needed the assistance of armed noobs. I stand by that assessment and the predictable, lethal, and avoidable outcome. This is the very escalation problem folks are pointing out that Trump's irresponsible rhetoric leads to. Please cite the rhetoric that lead to a kid trying to defend businesses from rioters. Please explain how the authorities were successfully defending these establishments. Please explain how, by virtue of the open carrying of a firearm, does one waive his right to self defense and invite mob attacks. You seem to have thought this through and I'd love to hear the reasoning behind your assertions. Thanks in advance. Edit: If, as a bonus, you could define "assault rifle" for me I'd really appreciate it. Edited October 10, 2020 by Rob's House 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Goat Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 3 hours ago, WideNine said: Just Google "Trump Tweet Conspiracy" and take your pick. Sure thing. Right after I Google "vast right-wing conspiracy." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Rob's House said: Pot meet kettle. As I said: "Hitler wasn't a socialist even though he described himself as such, but he was "right-wing" because liberals say so." You miss the point. Hitler was not a Fascist because of using the Socialism label, he was a Fascist because he fits the definition of Fascist from his actions. Fascism and Socialism are different things. Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Trump's actions often mirror Fascism, hence the anti-fascist "Anti fa" belief system which Trump often mischaracterizes as a terrorist organization unlike his reluctance to denounce far-right paramilitary groups which pose real risks to public safety. https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-race-and-ethnicity-archive-bdd3b6078e9efadcfcd0be4b65f2362e Edited October 10, 2020 by WideNine 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 29 minutes ago, WideNine said: It was dumb of a 17 year old kid to travel to a protest armed with an assault rifle. Like somehow the local trained authorities needed the assistance of armed noobs. I stand by that assessment and the predictable, lethal, and avoidable outcome. This is the very escalation problem folks are pointing out that Trump's irresponsible rhetoric leads to. You’ll get no argument from me that it was dumb for a 17 year old to put himself in the middle of a group of scumbags intent on destroying what other people have sacrificed, sweated and toiled to build. Of course, the local trained authorities aren’t much help when ordered to stand down, and besides, they can’t be trusted I’m told. On a scale of 1-10, trying to assist hard working people in the midst of a scene of total societal breakdown is an 8. The best course of action was to avoid the areas of peaceful arson and righteous looting. A 9 out of 10 would be assaulting with an intent to cause extreme harm to the kid with the rifle in the midst of the turmoil. A 10 out of 10 would be chasing the kid with the rifle down after he’s already engaged with one peaceful assaulter and then trying to beat him to death with a skateboard. As for folks who shout “escalation” long after the buildings have been set ablaze by the angry mob with what would seem to be the approval of the tolerant and benevolent liberal ruling political class, I’d say “Whatevs”. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 12 minutes ago, WideNine said: You miss the point. Hitler was not a Fascist because of using the Socialism label, he was a Fascist because he fits the definition of Fascist from his actions. Fascism and Socialism are different things. Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Trump's actions often mirror Fascism, hence the anti-fascist "Anti fa" belief system which Trump often mischaracterizes as a terrorist organization unlike his reluctance to denounce far-right paramilitary groups which pose real risks to public safety. https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-race-and-ethnicity-archive-bdd3b6078e9efadcfcd0be4b65f2362e If you can make a compelling argument for your position that Trump is a fascist I'll shave my head and sell pictures of you at the airport. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbillievable Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, WideNine said: You miss the point. Hitler was not a Fascist because of using the Socialism label, he was a Fascist because he fits the definition of Fascist from his actions. Fascism and Socialism are different things. Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Trump's actions often mirror Fascism, hence the anti-fascist "Anti fa" belief system which Trump often mischaracterizes as a terrorist organization unlike his reluctance to denounce far-right paramilitary groups which pose real risks to public safety. https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-race-and-ethnicity-archive-bdd3b6078e9efadcfcd0be4b65f2362e 1)Dictatorial power: Trump has repeatedly avoided assuming any new powers... even when pressed to do so. 2)Suppression of opposition: Trump did the opposite; called out Social Media companies for censorship 3)Regimentation of society and economy: Trump has removed government regulations and reduced taxes. By your definition, Trump is not fascist. Ironically, Antifa is Fascist. 19 minutes ago, WideNine said: Trump's actions often mirror Fascism, hence the anti-fascist "Anti fa" belief system which Trump often mischaracterizes as a terrorist organization unlike his reluctance to denounce far-right paramilitary groups which pose real risks to public safety. The left has been rioting for 100+ days, but the real risk to public safety are far-right groups.... Edited October 10, 2020 by unbillievable 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 43 minutes ago, Rob's House said: Please cite the rhetoric that lead to a kid trying to defend businesses from rioters. Please explain how the authorities were successfully defending these establishments. Please explain how, by virtue of the open carrying of a firearm, does one waive his right to self defense and invite mob attacks. You seem to have thought this through and I'd love to hear the reasoning behind your assertions. Thanks in advance. Edit: If, as a bonus, you could define "assault rifle" for me I'd really appreciate it. Exactly what I was trying to get from him earlier ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 Just now, Dub said: Exactly what I was trying to get from him earlier ! You'll never get it out of him. He only has conclusions with no explanation for how he arrived at them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbillievable Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Rob's House said: You'll never get it out of him. He only has conclusions with no explanation for how he arrived at them. I've had this discussion many times and every liberal always tells me to go look it up myself, because they know they are right. When I tell them I have looked it up, and brought back proof that the mainstream media is lying to them, they tell me that I can't believe what I find on the internet... ...very frustrating. Edited October 10, 2020 by unbillievable 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 11 minutes ago, unbillievable said: I've had this discussion many times and every liberal always tells me to go look it up myself, because they know they are right. When I tell them I have looked it up, and brought back proof that the mainstream media is lying to them, they tell me that I can't believe what I find on the internet... ...very frustrating. I work with a guy who believes in the "fine people on both sides" hoax. I pulled up the transcript on Politico and let him read it word for word. He still wasn't convinced. Never underestimate the power of denial. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbillievable Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 15 minutes ago, Rob's House said: I work with a guy who believes in the "fine people on both sides" hoax. I pulled up the transcript on Politico and let him read it word for word. He still wasn't convinced. Never underestimate the power of denial. I did the same, but my co-worker agreed with me after reading it. A month later he was back to repeating the hoax, even more convinced that he was right the first time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 1 minute ago, unbillievable said: I did the same, but my co-worker agreed with me after reading it. A month later he was back to repeating the hoax, even more convinced that he was right the first time. But you're the one who's in a cult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 42 minutes ago, Rob's House said: If you can make a compelling argument for your position that Trump is a fascist I'll shave my head and sell pictures of you at the airport. Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Authoritarian: So what do authoritarians in the US believe? In surveys I found that American authoritarians, compared with non-authoritarians, are more likely to agree that our country should be governed by a strong leader who doesn’t have to bother with Congress or elections. They are more likely to support limiting the freedom of the press and agree that the media is the enemy of the people rather than a valuable independent institution. They are also more likely to think the president should have the power to limit the voice and vote of opposition parties, while believing that those who disagree with them are a threat to our country—a concerning trend as we head to the polls this year. Let me be clear: Our fellow Americans, including our authoritarian neighbors, are not the enemy. The enemies of democracy are self-interested men and women who exploit fear to secure and expand their power. Fear activates the reservoir of intolerance that resides across ideological and partisan divides. And it dupes some of us into demanding uniformity over diversity, denigrating our neighbors, and turning our back on the very motto inscribed on the Great Seal of our Republic in 1782: e pluribus unum. Democracy is fragile. As John Quincy Adams wrote in 1814, “Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet, that did not commit suicide.” In November, we have a choice: freedom or fear. Ultranationalism: https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/22/trump-nationalist-926745 Dictatorial Power: Trump's attacks on Independent Media, independent Inspector Generals, whistle blowers, and attempt to use executive order to censor Internet media. https://www.eff.org/press/releases/voter-advocacy-orgs-sue-trump-administration-executive-order-threatening-social-media https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/14/trump-absolute-power-conservative-backlash-186887 Forcible Supression of Opposition: "If there’s one word to describe the post-impeachment chapter of Donald Trump’s presidency, it’s purge. Just two days removed from his acquittal by the Republican-controlled Senate, Trump retaliated against those he has determined were disloyal to him because they complied with legal subpoenas related to the House’s impeachment investigation. On Friday, Trump recalled Gordon Sondland, his ambassador to the European Union, and removed Amry Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman from his post on the National Security Council staff. Adding insult to injury, the commander in chief also ousted Vindman’s twin brother, Lt. Col. Yevgeny Vindman, an Army officer who also worked on the NSC staff who was not a part of the impeachment proceedings. The Friday night massacre could be just the opening act of Trump’s revenge quest. The Washington Post, citing unnamed administration officials, reports that Trump may also remove Michael Atkinson, the inspector general of the intelligence community, who shared the whistleblower report with Congress as required by law." Strong Regimentation of Society: Military leaders push back on Trump's calls for State Governors to take measures to "dominate" their streets or he would use the US military. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-generals-event-1.5599407 That covers it, but if folks are blind at this stage it is likely wasted effort trying to get them to see the danger. The good news is hopefully I won't have to worry about him screwing things up anymore than he already has after folks vote his fascist incompetent *** out of office in November. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubs Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 7 hours ago, Rob's House said: I work with a guy who believes in the "fine people on both sides" hoax. I pulled up the transcript on Politico and let him read it word for word. He still wasn't convinced. Never underestimate the power of denial. I literally copy and pasted the link to the video to my liberal friends and they still buy into the fine people on both sides narrative. It’s pure insanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 7 hours ago, unbillievable said: I've had this discussion many times and every liberal always tells me to go look it up myself, because they know they are right. When I tell them I have looked it up, and brought back proof that the mainstream media is lying to them, they tell me that I can't believe what I find on the internet... ...very frustrating. ...LOL BG...you must know my relatives.......staunch, dyed in the wool, "CNN IS gospel" Dems......EVER voting for ANY Republican is blasphemy and treason....they love to goad you into a conversation so they can use their standard line, "let me explain this for you", laced with condescending and arrogant drool....."quarantined" myself from them for 12 years and counting...SMH.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 7 hours ago, WideNine said: Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Authoritarian: So what do authoritarians in the US believe? In surveys I found that American authoritarians, compared with non-authoritarians, are more likely to agree that our country should be governed by a strong leader who doesn’t have to bother with Congress or elections. They are more likely to support limiting the freedom of the press and agree that the media is the enemy of the people rather than a valuable independent institution. They are also more likely to think the president should have the power to limit the voice and vote of opposition parties, while believing that those who disagree with them are a threat to our country—a concerning trend as we head to the polls this year. Let me be clear: Our fellow Americans, including our authoritarian neighbors, are not the enemy. The enemies of democracy are self-interested men and women who exploit fear to secure and expand their power. Fear activates the reservoir of intolerance that resides across ideological and partisan divides. And it dupes some of us into demanding uniformity over diversity, denigrating our neighbors, and turning our back on the very motto inscribed on the Great Seal of our Republic in 1782: e pluribus unum. Democracy is fragile. As John Quincy Adams wrote in 1814, “Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet, that did not commit suicide.” In November, we have a choice: freedom or fear. Ultranationalism: https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/22/trump-nationalist-926745 Dictatorial Power: Trump's attacks on Independent Media, independent Inspector Generals, whistle blowers, and attempt to use executive order to censor Internet media. https://www.eff.org/press/releases/voter-advocacy-orgs-sue-trump-administration-executive-order-threatening-social-media https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/14/trump-absolute-power-conservative-backlash-186887 Forcible Supression of Opposition: "If there’s one word to describe the post-impeachment chapter of Donald Trump’s presidency, it’s purge. Just two days removed from his acquittal by the Republican-controlled Senate, Trump retaliated against those he has determined were disloyal to him because they complied with legal subpoenas related to the House’s impeachment investigation. On Friday, Trump recalled Gordon Sondland, his ambassador to the European Union, and removed Amry Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman from his post on the National Security Council staff. Adding insult to injury, the commander in chief also ousted Vindman’s twin brother, Lt. Col. Yevgeny Vindman, an Army officer who also worked on the NSC staff who was not a part of the impeachment proceedings. The Friday night massacre could be just the opening act of Trump’s revenge quest. The Washington Post, citing unnamed administration officials, reports that Trump may also remove Michael Atkinson, the inspector general of the intelligence community, who shared the whistleblower report with Congress as required by law." Strong Regimentation of Society: Military leaders push back on Trump's calls for State Governors to take measures to "dominate" their streets or he would use the US military. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-generals-event-1.5599407 That covers it, but if folks are blind at this stage it is likely wasted effort trying to get them to see the danger. The good news is hopefully I won't have to worry about him screwing things up anymore than he already has after folks vote his fascist incompetent *** out of office in November. I’ll skip the OpEds and handwringing over the likes of Vindmann who suffered no greater indignation than getting bounced to the curb, the fact that DJT spearheaded efforts for the American people that offered greater opportunity for employment and money in their pocket, and the fact that BO famously lead an assault on independent news organization Fox News, and the like. I’ll leave you with: https://nypost.com/2020/10/09/pelosi-pushes-25th-amendment-bill-to-evaluate-trumps-health/ This will be the third time (Russia, Impeachment, 25th) in four short years the tolerant and independent left showed their version of what a free electorate might look like. Pelosi’s maskless visit time a closed hair salon was a humorous incident revealing the abject hypocrisy of the overlords of the tolerant and benevolent left, but certainly a sign of things to come when you’re boy Biden rules the land. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 11 hours ago, WideNine said: Trump's actions often mirror Fascism, hence the anti-fascist "Anti fa" belief system which Trump often mischaracterizes as a terrorist organization unlike his reluctance to denounce far-right paramilitary groups which pose real risks to public safety. https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-race-and-ethnicity-archive-bdd3b6078e9efadcfcd0be4b65f2362e K, sir, this might sting a bit because I’m going to make a mockery out of your “Anti fa” nonsense, but please don’t consider it a personal attack as that’s not my flavor. Y’all see what this dude did?😂 This dude is like ‘1st, Trump is obviously Hitler. Since Trump is clearly a fascist, there’s a group of benevolent people out there who are “anti” to Trump’s “fa.” Their being named “Antifa” is irrefutable proof that they’re good people, fighting for good things!’ ....bro, if I form a gang called “the very respectable gentleman” and we start a racketeering scheme, would you be like ‘those chaps are great, they’re “very respectable gentleman!”’ It’s so ridiculous that when liberals deflect Antifa criticism, how often they go to the “dude, they’re name is Antifa which means anti fascist, thus proving they did nothing wrong.” Do you not see how ridiculous that is? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 Turns out that they weren't right wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 ....so what does Whoa Joe have to say about governance in his home (OWNED) state?.......just curious..... Delaware suspect in Whitmer plot was pardoned last year By RANDALL CHASEUpdated: October 09, 2020 04:40 PM Created: October 09, 2020 04:15 PM DOVER, Del. (AP) - The Delaware man charged in federal court with conspiring to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer has a long criminal history and was pardoned just last year by Delaware's governor for crimes dating to 1994, according to state records. Barry G. Croft Jr., 44, was taken into custody this week after being arrested by the FBI in Swedesboro, New Jersey. Croft made an initial appearance before a federal magistrate in Wilmington on Thursday. Croft was being held Friday at a state prison in Wilmington. A hearing on his continued detention and removal to Michigan is scheduled for Tuesday. Five other men, all from Michigan, were charged in the alleged scheme that involved months of planning and even rehearsals to ***** Whitmer from her vacation home. https://www.whec.com/national/delaware-suspect-in-whitmer-plot-was-pardoned-last-year/5889395/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 10 hours ago, WideNine said: Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Authoritarian: So what do authoritarians in the US believe? In surveys I found that American authoritarians, compared with non-authoritarians, are more likely to agree that our country should be governed by a strong leader who doesn’t have to bother with Congress or elections. They are more likely to support limiting the freedom of the press and agree that the media is the enemy of the people rather than a valuable independent institution. They are also more likely to think the president should have the power to limit the voice and vote of opposition parties, while believing that those who disagree with them are a threat to our country—a concerning trend as we head to the polls this year. Let me be clear: Our fellow Americans, including our authoritarian neighbors, are not the enemy. The enemies of democracy are self-interested men and women who exploit fear to secure and expand their power. Fear activates the reservoir of intolerance that resides across ideological and partisan divides. And it dupes some of us into demanding uniformity over diversity, denigrating our neighbors, and turning our back on the very motto inscribed on the Great Seal of our Republic in 1782: e pluribus unum. Democracy is fragile. As John Quincy Adams wrote in 1814, “Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet, that did not commit suicide.” In November, we have a choice: freedom or fear. Ultranationalism: https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/22/trump-nationalist-926745 Dictatorial Power: Trump's attacks on Independent Media, independent Inspector Generals, whistle blowers, and attempt to use executive order to censor Internet media. https://www.eff.org/press/releases/voter-advocacy-orgs-sue-trump-administration-executive-order-threatening-social-media https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/14/trump-absolute-power-conservative-backlash-186887 Forcible Supression of Opposition: "If there’s one word to describe the post-impeachment chapter of Donald Trump’s presidency, it’s purge. Just two days removed from his acquittal by the Republican-controlled Senate, Trump retaliated against those he has determined were disloyal to him because they complied with legal subpoenas related to the House’s impeachment investigation. On Friday, Trump recalled Gordon Sondland, his ambassador to the European Union, and removed Amry Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman from his post on the National Security Council staff. Adding insult to injury, the commander in chief also ousted Vindman’s twin brother, Lt. Col. Yevgeny Vindman, an Army officer who also worked on the NSC staff who was not a part of the impeachment proceedings. The Friday night massacre could be just the opening act of Trump’s revenge quest. The Washington Post, citing unnamed administration officials, reports that Trump may also remove Michael Atkinson, the inspector general of the intelligence community, who shared the whistleblower report with Congress as required by law." Strong Regimentation of Society: Military leaders push back on Trump's calls for State Governors to take measures to "dominate" their streets or he would use the US military. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-generals-event-1.5599407 That covers it, but if folks are blind at this stage it is likely wasted effort trying to get them to see the danger. The good news is hopefully I won't have to worry about him screwing things up anymore than he already has after folks vote his fascist incompetent *** out of office in November. When you were typing that did you feel like you were trying really hard to rationalize the absurd, or did you still think you had a plausible case for your position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unforgiven Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 Delaware man charged in Michigan governor kidnap plot was pardoned by Carney last year https://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/crime/2020/10/09/last-year-carney-pardoned-bear-man-charged-plot-kidnap-michigan-governor/5935065002/ Oh the sweet irony, perp pardoned by a democrat. Democrats create problems, then blame everyone else when it's a colossal fail. Just another in a long line of whack job left lunacy conspiracy theories fizzling like a fart in the wind. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capco Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, Cinga said: Where the F*** did you get that idea? He was a f***ing fascist which is the extreme TO THE LEFT! He promised free healthcare and a Volkswagen in every garage for cripe sake! And what the hell do you think NAZI stands for? National Amazing Zoo Institute? No.... it means National Socialist German Workers' Party you IDIOT! Did you get that? SOCIALIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All that crap you list in this post your right, is fascism, but that fascism is all left wing by nature! I really think sometime people need to go back to school, not to learn because so many are beyond that, but to slap their teacher! Hahahahahaha what a simpleton. Here, let me try to answer pictorially for you. The vast majority of scholars place Nazism and Fascism on the far-right. https://archive.org/details/germansintonazis00frit https://archive.org/details/routledgecompani00davi You probably have no idea why the word socialism was even included in the party name, so I'll tell you. It was because socialism was wildly popular in Europe during the 1920s and the only way the far-right could compete was to veil their platform as an equal alternative to the standard definition of socialism by incorporating left wing organizational tactics and blending them with right wing views. In Mussolini's own words: "Fascism, sitting on the right, could also have sat on the mountain of the center.... These words in any case do not have a fixed and unchanged meaning: they do have a variable subject to location, time and spirit. We don't give a damn about these empty terminologies and we despise those who are terrorized by these words" By all means, please find a credible scholarly source that supports the notion that Nazis and Fascists reside on the far left of the political spectrum. It will be difficult, but have fun trying. Edited October 10, 2020 by Capco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 54 minutes ago, Capco said: Hahahahahaha what a simpleton. Here, let me try to answer pictorially for you. The vast majority of scholars place Nazism and Fascism on the far-right. https://archive.org/details/germansintonazis00frit https://archive.org/details/routledgecompani00davi You probably have no idea why the word socialism was even included in the party name, so I'll tell you. It was because socialism was wildly popular in Europe during the 1920s and the only way the far-right could compete was to veil their platform as an equal alternative to the standard definition of socialism by incorporating left wing organizational tactics and blending them with right wing views. In Mussolini's own words: "Fascism, sitting on the right, could also have sat on the mountain of the center.... These words in any case do not have a fixed and unchanged meaning: they do have a variable subject to location, time and spirit. We don't give a damn about these empty terminologies and we despise those who are terrorized by these words" By all means, please find a credible scholarly source that supports the notion that Nazis and Fascists reside on the far left of the political spectrum. It will be difficult, but have fun trying. So because Fascist and Nazis of 100 years were considered right, conservatives of today are considered Nazis and Fascist? What ideals that are near and dear to conservatives make them Nazis or Fascists? Now that’s not what I’m accusing you of saying here but many do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capco Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 15 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: So because Fascist and Nazis of 100 years were considered right, conservatives of today are considered Nazis and Fascist? What ideals that are near and dear to conservatives make them Nazis or Fascists? Now that’s not what I’m accusing you of saying here but many do. Thank you for recognizing that that's not at all what I was saying. I think it's entirely disingenuous to chalk up today's conservatives as Nazis/Fascists (or equally, today's liberals as Marxist-Leninists). However, in modern times the right has shifted further to the right, and the left has shifted further to the left within the US. Therefore, the number of true conservatives and liberals has, imo, started to diminish. In short, modern politics is polarized and continuing along that trend for the foreseeable future. That's why I think you see an uptick of those kinds of comments. Jmo, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 2 hours ago, Capco said: Thank you for recognizing that that's not at all what I was saying. I think it's entirely disingenuous to chalk up today's conservatives as Nazis/Fascists (or equally, today's liberals as Marxist-Leninists). However, in modern times the right has shifted further to the right, and the left has shifted further to the left within the US. Therefore, the number of true conservatives and liberals has, imo, started to diminish. In short, modern politics is polarized and continuing along that trend for the foreseeable future. That's why I think you see an uptick of those kinds of comments. Jmo, though. Just out of curiosity what would you consider the most important and most common ideals of the “typical” true conservative? While I agree that the extremes are going further away from center I feel the left is going further in larger numbers. Perfect example. We have several well known politicians (the squad for instance) that have gone pretty far left and are gaining lots of support. We had a very social Democrat (Sanders) perform well in the primaries. What far right groups have done that well? Look what happened to the Tea Party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 13 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: I’ll skip the OpEds and handwringing over the likes of Vindmann who suffered no greater indignation than getting bounced to the curb, the fact that DJT spearheaded efforts for the American people that offered greater opportunity for employment and money in their pocket, and the fact that BO famously lead an assault on independent news organization Fox News, and the like. I’ll leave you with: https://nypost.com/2020/10/09/pelosi-pushes-25th-amendment-bill-to-evaluate-trumps-health/ This will be the third time (Russia, Impeachment, 25th) in four short years the tolerant and independent left showed their version of what a free electorate might look like. Pelosi’s maskless visit time a closed hair salon was a humorous incident revealing the abject hypocrisy of the overlords of the tolerant and benevolent left, but certainly a sign of things to come when you’re boy Biden rules the land. Not a fan of Pelosi, but that does not remove my utter disdain for Trump, his stupidity, and his epic mismanagement of this nation. I also am supportive of more conservative justices to balance the bevy of liberal justices, but I am leary of justices that have undermined democratic principles such as campaign finance integrity, and equal access to voting, and am not fully on board with Constitutional Literalist as they often lose site of context. Such is my more narrow view of the 2nd ammendment that aligns with the late Scalia's balanced approach in his majority opinion on the matter that most people incorrectly reference as if he advocated carte blanche unfettered guns for all. As with most things there is a balance between literal Constitutional translation and the complete twisting of intent as in Citizens United. Of course, Jefferson said it better: and hanging inference on inference, from heaven to earth, like Jacob’s ladder? such an intention was impossible, and such a licentiousness of construction and inference, if exercised by both governments, as may be done with equal right, would equally authorize both to claim all powers, general and particular, and break up the foundations of the Union. laws are made for men of ordinary understanding, and should therfore be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 20 minutes ago, WideNine said: Not a fan of Pelosi, but that does not remove my utter disdain for Trump, his stupidity, and his epic mismanagement of this nation. I also am supportive of more conservative justices to balance the bevy of liberal justices, but I am leary of justices that have undermined democratic principles such as campaign finance integrity, and equal access to voting, and am not fully on board with Constitutional Literalist as they often lose site of context. Such is my more narrow view of the 2nd ammendment that aligns with the late Scalia's balanced approach in his majority opinion on the matter that most people incorrectly reference as if he advocated carte blanche unfettered guns for all. As with most things there is a balance between literal Constitutional translation and the complete twisting of intent as in Citizens United. Of course, Jefferson said it better: and hanging inference on inference, from heaven to earth, like Jacob’s ladder? such an intention was impossible, and such a licentiousness of construction and inference, if exercised by both governments, as may be done with equal right, would equally authorize both to claim all powers, general and particular, and break up the foundations of the Union. laws are made for men of ordinary understanding, and should therfore be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. It’s obviously an emotional issue for you, that much is clear. It strikes me as odd given your passion for the country that your feelings about Pelosi and her plans for partisan tribunals to bypass the will of the people is about the same as mine is toward salmon—I’m not a fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 21 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: It’s obviously an emotional issue for you, that much is clear. It strikes me as odd given your passion for the country that your feelings about Pelosi and her plans for partisan tribunals to bypass the will of the people is about the same as mine is toward salmon—I’m not a fan. Not really that odd...I vote and stand behind the individual based on their actions more than the party. Pelosi, to me, is cut from the opposite end of the same cloth as McConnell. I feel they both would sacrifice democratic principle and their responsibility to actually govern this nation in the name of partisan politics. To me they both represent a large part of what I find wrong about our government. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 1 minute ago, WideNine said: Not really that odd...I vote and stand behind the individual based on their actions more than the party. Pelosi, to me, is cut from the opposite end of the same cloth as McConnell. I feel they both would sacrifice democratic principle and their responsibility to actually govern this nation in the name of partisan politics. To me they both represent a large part of what I find wrong about our government. We actually agree on something. How do you feel about term limits for all politicians? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 31 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: It’s obviously an emotional issue for you, that much is clear. It strikes me as odd given your passion for the country that your feelings about Pelosi and her plans for partisan tribunals to bypass the will of the people is about the same as mine is toward salmon—I’m not a fan. You’re not doing it right. Oh, and I’m talking about the Salmon not Pelosi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 Just now, westside2 said: We actually agree on something. How do you feel about term limits for all politicians? Very much in favor of it. Particularly those living dead creatures in our Senate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 23 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: You’re not doing it right. Oh, and I’m talking about the Salmon not Pelosi. I want to like salmon, but I just can’t wrap my head around it. And...lobster. All that cracking apart, it’s barbaric...I do like Swedish Fish though, delicious and I hear the schools are open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 32 minutes ago, WideNine said: Not really that odd...I vote and stand behind the individual based on their actions more than the party. Pelosi, to me, is cut from the opposite end of the same cloth as McConnell. I feel they both would sacrifice democratic principle and their responsibility to actually govern this nation in the name of partisan politics. To me they both represent a large part of what I find wrong about our government. We agree in principle, though to be fair, I said it was odd to me, not odd in general. My general feeling is that when someone feels as passionately about something (in this case, politics and DJT), a shameless power grab if the sort Pelosi is about would be met with....well, passion, not “meh”. In this case, a play of this nature made by other Washington elites with R on their business card would be just as troubling to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capco Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 7 hours ago, Chef Jim said: Just out of curiosity what would you consider the most important and most common ideals of the “typical” true conservative? While I agree that the extremes are going further away from center I feel the left is going further in larger numbers. Perfect example. We have several well known politicians (the squad for instance) that have gone pretty far left and are gaining lots of support. We had a very social Democrat (Sanders) perform well in the primaries. What far right groups have done that well? Look what happened to the Tea Party. To answer your second paragraph first, examine this graphic: That is where the two party platforms lie when compared to the platforms of the median parties from the various democracies. In short, the Democrats are much closer the median than the Republicans are. Any Republicans who go even further to the right of the party probably aren't successful because of how extreme they are (i.e. it's pretty hard to get any more extreme than the Republicans currently are). On the other hand, there is considerable room to the left of the median for the Democratic party to move to, at least by comparison to the Republican party. As far the "typical" true conservative... it's been so long since I've seen one be successful in the Republican party of today, since they aren't far enough to the right. If I had to give an example of a conservative that I highly respect and one that is representative of what I think true conservatism is, I would offer George Will or William F. Buckley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 1 hour ago, Capco said: To answer your second paragraph first, examine this graphic: That is where the two party platforms lie when compared to the platforms of the median parties from the various democracies. In short, the Democrats are much closer the median than the Republicans are. Any Republicans who go even further to the right of the party probably aren't successful because of how extreme they are (i.e. it's pretty hard to get any more extreme than the Republicans currently are). On the other hand, there is considerable room to the left of the median for the Democratic party to move to, at least by comparison to the Republican party. As far the "typical" true conservative... it's been so long since I've seen one be successful in the Republican party of today, since they aren't far enough to the right. If I had to give an example of a conservative that I highly respect and one that is representative of what I think true conservatism is, I would offer George Will or William F. Buckley. Hoax. That is nonsense. I'm not even a Republican yet I can see this is garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddo Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 2 hours ago, westside2 said: Hoax. That is nonsense. I'm not even a Republican yet I can see this is garbage. Personally, I think that graphical representation is fairly accurate. I live, and was brought up in the UK, and where they have the various parties slotted there, looks about right to me, which is a good indicator that the rest of the representation would be correct. Currently, the Conservative Party in the UK, is actually moving further to the right in many respects. About the only thing stopping it moving quicker, is the Covid pandemic. In Europe generally, the view held here of the Democrats as being left wing is a matter of some amusement. In relation to the political leanings of parties in Europe, at best they would be considered 'center left', and no doubt many would still characterize them as being 'center right'. There would be no doubt in the average European mind, that the Republicans are currently a 'right wing' party, and a fair way over, as well. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddy KGB Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 @Tiberius you gonna change the thread title or what ? what’s the hold up ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubs Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Buddo said: Personally, I think that graphical representation is fairly accurate. I live, and was brought up in the UK, and where they have the various parties slotted there, looks about right to me, which is a good indicator that the rest of the representation would be correct. Currently, the Conservative Party in the UK, is actually moving further to the right in many respects. About the only thing stopping it moving quicker, is the Covid pandemic. In Europe generally, the view held here of the Democrats as being left wing is a matter of some amusement. In relation to the political leanings of parties in Europe, at best they would be considered 'center left', and no doubt many would still characterize them as being 'center right'. There would be no doubt in the average European mind, that the Republicans are currently a 'right wing' party, and a fair way over, as well. that’s the problem. European political spectrums have no use in the United States. I don’t care what scholars or anyone says in reference to the question someone posed above. In the United States, we were formed as a Constitutional Republic. Limited enumerated powers given to the federal government, maximum liberty to the individual. That’s the starting point and the center for our political spectrum. Anything more toward centralization of power in the hands of the federal government is a move to the left. That includes the most extreme versions of that, socialism and ultimately fascism, and communism. There is no other pole that’s natural extreme is also total authoritarian rule. The other extreme is no federal government, then maybe no government period. here endeth the lesson Edited October 11, 2020 by dubs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 8 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: I want to like salmon, but I just can’t wrap my head around it. And...lobster. All that cracking apart, it’s barbaric...I do like Swedish Fish though, delicious and I hear the schools are open. Barbaric things are often worth it. Like shooting a deer in the head, ripping it’s hide off and scooping out its guts? 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 2 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: Barbaric things are often worth it. Like shooting a deer in the head, ripping it’s hide off and scooping out its guts? 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 Also not on my bucket list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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