GoBills808 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 16 minutes ago, RochesterRob said: Could you make more vague responses and then disappear into the fog of the internet? You should know since you responded that I was responding to a post that mentioned collectivism. Are you trying to say that collectivism has been implemented with success? That both the people and the government which were impacted by collectivism were happy with the results? That you yourself would be happy if the government came along and subtracted "Y" from your "X?" Even if you owned a 1500 square foot home and were paid 15 dollars per hour you would be happy if the government decided some less fortunate person needed half of your living area and that your employer should pay that person part of your salary? You could start by referencing a 'collectivist' doctrine that advocates someone earning more shares for less effort. Actually I'll spare you the time- you'll find it under the 'individualist' subsection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RochesterRob Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: You could start by referencing a 'collectivist' doctrine that advocates someone earning more shares for less effort. Actually I'll spare you the time- you'll find it under the 'individualist' subsection. We are all aware of the differences in terms of practice and print when it comes to policy. You are stalling. Would you be happy if someone received part of your assets without payment to you? That the same person performed no work and yet was compensated with some of your assets? Do you consider it fair that in certain portions of the world and at certain times people had assets taken away from them that they believed was earned in a fair manor? I am not interested in any political science drivel that you hunted up or were taught at college. Do you believe in the right for the government to collect and redistribute assets without compensation to the previous holders of those assets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Logic said: Weird. Here I was under the impression that MANY of the freedoms we enjoy today came as a result of revolutions, rebellions, and strikes, put together most often by what you'd refer to as "collectivists". I guess revolutionaries all over the world should just quit trying to work towards a better, more equitable world, since their efforts have historically never achieved anything whatsoever. Besides, it's quite clear that modern, late stage capitalist, materialism-worshipping America is doing just fine in all respects and doesn't require any change anyway. Our American individualism is working ESPECIALLY well as it relates to COVID-19. How many of our freedoms have come from proletariat revolutions? What at I find absolutely hysterically funny is that you appear to espouse freedom in your first paragraph. It only took you until the third to let your true feelings about individualism be known. So we should be collectively free? How does that work? Your desired form of government doesn't work and it won't start working just because you think you're smarter than everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, RochesterRob said: We are all aware of the differences in terms of practice and print when it comes to policy. You are stalling. Would you be happy if someone received part of your assets without payment to you? That the same person performed no work and yet was compensated with some of your assets? Do you consider it fair that in certain portions of the world and at certain times people had assets taken away from them that they believed was earned in a fair manor? I am not interested in any political science drivel that you hunted up or were taught at college. Do you believe in the right for the government to collect and redistribute assets without compensation to the previous holders of those assets? Are you under the impression that right now, at this very moment, other members of this society aren't benefitting from your assets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logic Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 35 minutes ago, RochesterRob said: I thought we were having meaningful discussion on social-political experiments. Why retract your comment about righty's? You're right about both "societies" being quite a ways removed from being perfect. What do you envision happening on righty island over the span of a few years? I edited my statement because I realized that I, too, was contributing to changing the subject from what the OP intended, by shifting the conversation from violence in revolutions to "left vs right". I'm trying to make a more concerted effort these days not to hijack threads and have them go off in directions unrelated to the OP's intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Niagara Bill said: Why do people who wanted peace and to end the war machine and the war economy have to be the evil socialist or God forbid a dam communist. Why can you deal with them as citizens. I was not a commie pinkos like Meathead Stivic. Why do people sho just want our society to treat all people equally have to labeled like that. Cannot you believe in MAGA and also be in favor of a just society. Red hair ring. The leaders of many parts of this current turmoil are avowed Marxists. Who is against a just society where people are equal?. Those are pillars of our founding. Being against collectivism does not mean one is against justice. I am against communists/socialists/anarchists/collectivists seizing the exclusive license to define injustice and develop solutions. That road leads to millions of dead and subservient paupers as survivors. It always has. No thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logic Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 9 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said: How many of our freedoms have come from proletariat revolutions? What at I find absolutely hysterically funny is that you appear to espouse freedom in your first paragraph. It only took you until the third to let your true feelings about individualism be known. So we should be collectively free? How does that work? Your desired form of government doesn't work and it won't start working just because you think you're smarter than everyone else. Your hostility toward others and your desire to take this discussion in a completely different direction than the one intended by the OP are bizarre. This thread is about the impact of violence on revolutionary movements, and you want to come in here talking about socialism and "my desired form of government"? As if you even KNOW what my desired form of government is, or as if it has ANY impact on what was originally being discussed? If you want to talk about the comparative merits of direct action vs peaceful protest, or of the impact of violence on revolutions, I'm all for it. If you want to continue down the path of condescension, arrogance, rudeness, and completely changing the subject to what YOU want to talk about, I'm out. Good day to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) 30 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: You could start by referencing a 'collectivist' doctrine that advocates someone earning more shares for less effort. Actually I'll spare you the time- you'll find it under the 'individualist' subsection. From each....to each...ring any bells? Edited June 21, 2020 by 4merper4mer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RochesterRob Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Are you under the impression that right now, at this very moment, other members of this society aren't benefitting from your assets? Un-entitled members? No. Just me and the wife in my house. No forced tenants. Just me and the wife on the checking account with no other access allowed. Who do you think is benefitting that should not? Taxes paid to the government is outside that. I know that when I earn money that the government gets a portion of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Just now, RochesterRob said: Un-entitled members? No. Just me and the wife in my house. No forced tenants. Just me and the wife on the checking account with no other access allowed. Who do you think is benefitting that should not? Taxes paid to the government is outside that. I know that when I earn money that the government gets a portion of it. And what do you suppose the government does with your portion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RochesterRob Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, Logic said: I edited my statement because I realized that I, too, was contributing to changing the subject from what the OP intended, by shifting the conversation from violence in revolutions to "left vs right". I'm trying to make a more concerted effort these days not to hijack threads and have them go off in directions unrelated to the OP's intent. I can appreciate that but I also appreciate your views even though our politics do no align. I consider it a loss for all here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said: From each....to each...ring any bells? Moreso than you. It's in reference to need, not whatever effort/reward equation you think you understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Just now, Logic said: Your hostility toward others and your desire to take this discussion in a completely different direction than the one intended by the OP are bizarre. This thread is about the impact of violence on revolutionary movements, and you want to come in here talking about socialism and "my desired form of government"? As if you even KNOW what my desired form of government is, or as if it has ANY impact on what was originally being discussed? If you want to talk about the comparative merits of direct action vs peaceful protest, or of the impact of violence on revolutions, I'm all for it. If you want to continue down the path of condescension, arrogance, rudeness, and completely changing the subject to what YOU want to talk about, I'm out. Good day to you. I read four words. My response: I have no hostilities towards others. None. Zero. I do have hostility toward bad ideas. I've shown hostility only toward ideas. I haven't judged you or the other folks with the bad ideas. Only the ideas. You've decided to take the opposite approach. Whatever. I'm guessing the rest of your post is based off this false premise. If so it is worthless. I'll read it now but probably won't comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logic Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Just now, GoBills808 said: And what do you suppose the government does with your portion? Why even feed into the hijacking of this thread by people who clearly have no interest in discussing its original subject? Why facilitate and acquiesce to the apparent desire to re-direct a perfectly reasonable and worthy conversation toward subjects which have very little --if anything at all-- to do with what was originally being discussed? Collectivism vs Individualism is a completely different topic than "the impact of violence on revolutions". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Moreso than you. It's in reference to need, not whatever effort/reward equation you think you understand. Who defines the need of an individual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logic Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Just now, 4merper4mer said: I read four words. My response: I have no hostilities towards others. None. Zero. I do have hostility toward bad ideas. I've shown hostility only toward ideas. I haven't judged you or the other folks with the bad ideas. Only the ideas. You've decided to take the opposite approach. Whatever. I'm guessing the rest of your post is based off this false premise. If so it is worthless. I'll read it now but probably won't comment. Refusing to read someone's response to you, insisting on replying to it anyway, then indicating you won't respond to any further replies to you, either. Yep, certainly SEEMS like reasonable, mature, non-hostile discourse. Feel free to @ me if you want to discuss the original topic at any point, rather than continuing to stubbornly insert your own topic of choice and respond dismissively to anyone who dares to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said: Who defines the need of an individual? Who defines it now? It's a construct of income, housing, health and numerous other factors available for public consumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, Logic said: Refusing to read someone's response to you, insisting on replying to it anyway, then indicating you won't respond to any further replies to you, either. Yep, certainly SEEMS like reasonable, mature, non-hostile discourse. Feel free to @ me if you want to discuss the original topic at any point, rather than continuing to stubbornly insert your own topic of choice and respond dismissively to anyone who dares to disagree. The first four words of your post were egregiously incorrect and did exactly what you accused me of doing. I hadn't shown malice toward anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logic Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said: The first four words of your post were egregiously incorrect and did exactly what you accused me of doing. I hadn't shown malice toward anyone. Accusing me of "thinking I'm smarter than everyone else" certainly feels like malice. It also seems like the pot calling the kettle black. Alas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 21 minutes ago, Logic said: Why even feed into the hijacking of this thread by people who clearly have no interest in discussing its original subject? Why facilitate and acquiesce to the apparent desire to re-direct a perfectly reasonable and worthy conversation toward subjects which have very little --if anything at all-- to do with what was originally being discussed? Collectivism vs Individualism is a completely different topic than "the impact of violence on revolutions". I can’t pass up the opportunity to interact with someone online who feels compelled to mention they attended Cornell. That’s blood in the water. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RochesterRob Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: I can’t pass up the opportunity to interact with someone online who feels compelled to mention they attended Cornell. That’s blood in the water. Yeah, your blood. Shouldn't you be crying to a mod right about now over something? By the way Cornell offers more than political science courses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Case in point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RochesterRob Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 1 minute ago, GoBills808 said: Case in point. I'll credit you for having a very active imagination. Most people would be jealous to think that you win all your battles. So when is daddy showing up to tell me that I am playing too rough with you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Things Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 1 hour ago, 4merper4mer said: just because you think you're smarter than everyone else. That's pretty rich coming from you. You are the benchmark when it comes to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Logic said: Accusing me of "thinking I'm smarter than everyone else" certainly feels like malice. It also seems like the pot calling the kettle black. Alas... Fair point. I should have kept to the ideas. Sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Bill Posted June 21, 2020 Author Share Posted June 21, 2020 8 hours ago, GG said: Keep proving that you don't know what you are talking about or learned anything in history class. Your posts sound strangely like those of Agent R...do you get paid extra for each identity? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaCrispy Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 12 hours ago, Niagara Bill said: I am afraid you are right! So much hatred. " Something is happening, but you don't know what it is, do you Mr. Jones?" To me the hatred is not organic, but rather a result of decades of an anti- American education system finally coming home to roost, and the end of journalism in favor of activism... People are made to feel like everything and everyone are worse than they really are...instead of simply disagreeing with the opposition, people are taught to hate them, and call them the worst names in the book...we are taught that people who disagree aren’t to be treated as human beings, but as the scum of the Earth... We are taught to physically attack those we disagree with because no longer is talking peaceful- but now words are considered violence, and free speech is racist...if you believe in hard work and taking responsibility, you are considered a bigot and a white supremacist, even if you are not white... The world is upside down and we are all going to hell in a hand bag real fast...buckle up- it’s gonna be a bumpy ride... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Sometimes I wish Al Gore had not invented the Internet. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 I just wish the entirety of the stories were used & not just the parts & pieces that fit the narrative or agenda of the revolt which is the way it always works . As i get older i find that's the way it has always been and will always be but you can't just listen to 1 side or the other and follow like sheep because that's the intent to use parts and pieces to achieve the goal . Then you throw in those that don't want to waste a crisis and it all goes to hell ! Individual research will find truths that lie in the shadows that no one wants known on either side ! I have always told my kids learn from your and my mistakes made learn from them so that you can become a better person . Also learn from the mistakes made in history and learn from those don't bury history and expect change to be for the better ! The first step to change is admitting those mistakes, faults, short comings what ever you want to label them as then bring them into he light and only then can change for the better be made ! There was only 1 that was perfect ? all glory to the father through the son ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 At the risk of getting back on topic, there is definitely a strong effort by white supremacists to incite violence and derail progress. That includes directly committing violent acts against police at demonstrations and inciting both sides online. I’m surprised we’re so far into this thread without that being mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviF Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 If it's televised, it's not a ***** revolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snafu Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 10 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: At the risk of getting back on topic, there is definitely a strong effort by white supremacists to incite violence and derail progress. That includes directly committing violent acts against police at demonstrations and inciting both sides online. I’m surprised we’re so far into this thread without that being mentioned. Every City's Mayor has lamented the acts of "outside agitators" in these recent protests that have spun out of control. I've often wondered who these "outside agitators" were and what they represent and what their goals are. Many people have speculated that these are racists stirring up trouble, and many people have fingered far left marxists. The truth is that it is probably both, to some extent. In any event, it would have been nice if the local yokel (seemingly peaceful) protesters hadn't so willingly taken the bait. It would have been awfully nice if the peaceful protesters helped to point out who the agitators are and who they agitated. Maybe this happened, but I haven't seen it reported with any regularity. One of the demands of the protesters is that police have a reduced role in policing. They want to substitute the community to handle policing matters. It doesn't bode well if peaceful, local, protesters (a) take the bait so easily, and (2) can't police their own community during what's supposed to be peaceful activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 21 minutes ago, snafu said: Every City's Mayor has lamented the acts of "outside agitators" in these recent protests that have spun out of control. I've often wondered who these "outside agitators" were and what they represent and what their goals are. Many people have speculated that these are racists stirring up trouble, and many people have fingered far left marxists. The truth is that it is probably both, to some extent. In any event, it would have been nice if the local yokel (seemingly peaceful) protesters hadn't so willingly taken the bait. It would have been awfully nice if the peaceful protesters helped to point out who the agitators are and who they agitated. Maybe this happened, but I haven't seen it reported with any regularity. One of the demands of the protesters is that police have a reduced role in policing. They want to substitute the community to handle policing matters. It doesn't bode well if peaceful, local, protesters (a) take the bait so easily, and (2) can't police their own community during what's supposed to be peaceful activity. Let’s not make that one sided. In many cases the police have been the ones to initiate violence. I’ve seen enough footage of that that I can’t imagine you haven’t. In some other cases police have reacted with violence to violence initiated by suspected or known white supremacists within the crowd of protesters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snafu Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) 34 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: Let’s not make that one sided. In many cases the police have been the ones to initiate violence. I’ve seen enough footage of that that I can’t imagine you haven’t. In some other cases police have reacted with violence to violence initiated by suspected or known white supremacists within the crowd of protesters. Can you re-read my first Paragraph and tell me why that's one-sided? By the way, I don't think "outside agitators" are so prolific to be whipping up violence and unrest at every protest. In fact, I don't really believe in "outside agitators". My points were: (1) it doesn't really matter who the "agitators" are, and it is likely coming from both ends of the spectrum (2) the peacefulness broke down when local protesters decided that they'd like to not be so peaceful (3) I didn't see any peaceful protester helping to root out the agitators or the people who got agitated I wasn't really talking about the police. I will say that I believe they were in a tough spot when things got ugly. Edited June 23, 2020 by snafu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviF Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 33 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: Let’s not make that one sided. In many cases the police have been the ones to initiate violence. I’ve seen enough footage of that that I can’t imagine you haven’t. In some other cases police have reacted with violence to violence initiated by suspected or known white supremacists within the crowd of protesters. lmao bruh you want me to tell you who was throwing molotov cocktails and bricks in my city when ***** went down? Because it wasn't "white supremacists" bogeymen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 The looters (and the looters are not all from outside instigators) have ruined support from many. Violet protesters and looters have resulted in many businesses leaving urban areas decreasing jobs in areas as well as services/businesses. We will have another contraction of businesses not wanting to absorb costs and more complaints about communities not be served. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 1 hour ago, LeviF91 said: lmao bruh you want me to tell you who was throwing molotov cocktails and bricks in my city when ***** went down? Because it wasn't "white supremacists" bogeymen. Barley probably has doctored videos showing it was the police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Bill Posted June 23, 2020 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 On 6/21/2020 at 4:57 PM, RochesterRob said: We are all aware of the differences in terms of practice and print when it comes to policy. You are stalling. Would you be happy if someone received part of your assets without payment to you? That the same person performed no work and yet was compensated with some of your assets? Do you consider it fair that in certain portions of the world and at certain times people had assets taken away from them that they believed was earned in a fair manor? I am not interested in any political science drivel that you hunted up or were taught at college. Do you believe in the right for the government to collect and redistribute assets without compensation to the previous holders of those assets? This is confusing me, which may be easy at times, but why when we talk revolution of a racial sense does the subject of welfare raise its head. Not all black Americans are welfare recipients. A large part of the black segment is highly educated, employed, successful, valued members of the community and world. They still get treated poorly and suspiciously by many people and the police and the courts, and some business etc etc. Our society in the US and Canada must bridge this divide. I pledge to try and do my part. On a lighter note I already know that no matter what I do or what WE can accomplish in the revolution I still cannot get a date with JLo so I have no ulterior motive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Bill Posted June 23, 2020 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 47 minutes ago, Limeaid said: The looters (and the looters are not all from outside instigators) have ruined support from many. Violet protesters and looters have resulted in many businesses leaving urban areas decreasing jobs in areas as well as services/businesses. We will have another contraction of businesses not wanting to absorb costs and more complaints about communities not be served. The point of this thread is exactly that. Can the revolution, the fight for recognition of the our societal change survive the distraction of violence that opportunists take advantage of. In the 60s the violence continued to increase by all. The establishment even participated and encouraged it. Nixon re election team sent people into the protests to encourage violent actions. ( see John Dean). So anarchists encouraged by establishment ruined peace. Can this be stopped in 2020? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 1 hour ago, LeviF91 said: lmao bruh you want me to tell you who was throwing molotov cocktails and bricks in my city when ***** went down? Because it wasn't "white supremacists" bogeymen. Don't tase me bro! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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