Foxx Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 whoa... when did the Stadium Wall/Off the Wall turn into PPPLite? 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 10 hours ago, Rochesterfan said: So then I guess we still need to understand the full context of the text messages to really understand the “stupid” comment he made. What had the 2 of them been talking about - prior to the comment. Had they been discussing in college courses any of this history of GA that you are talking about? Or in previous conversations over time - not just that one? In that case is he making a stupid joke referring to the states history because that was part of their previous discussion- hence the dumb haha. Or is this a legitimate thought and feeling of Mr. Fromm? We need to understand the full context (and more) to understand whether it's a legitimate thought and feeling of Mr Fromm. We don't need to understand the full context to understand why what superficially to many of us looks like a nothing-burger might be considered offensive to a black player. 5 minutes ago, Foxx said: whoa... when did the Stadium Wall/Off the Wall turn into PPPLite? Welcome to my new world, Foxx-man. (Serious answer: SDS felt the football relevence of these topics and the fact that people want to discuss them justified relaxing the guidelines. But don't go nuts with it, there are still rules) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 11 minutes ago, Foxx said: whoa... when did the Stadium Wall/Off the Wall turn into PPPLite? PPPLite! I refer to it as Bastion of the Triggered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxx Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: ... Welcome to my new world, Foxx-man. (Serious answer: SDS felt the football relevence of these topics and the fact that people want to discuss them justified relaxing the guidelines. But don't go nuts with it, there are still rules) i don't envy you, Hap... that is for sure. moding is a mostly thankless job and most i know do it simply for the love of the board (wherever/whatever that board may be). i do have to say that you and the other mods do a yeoman's job here. your/their efforts are greatly appreciated. i understand we are in fairly uncharted waters in these clearly uncertain times, just was a bit surprised is all. though to be honest, with everything that is currently upon the world stage at this particular time, it should not be that surprising. after all, cats are going to do what cats are going to do, herding them is (almost) impossible. flowing with the go is usually the best course. cheers my man. Edited June 7, 2020 by Foxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsNutHawaii Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 Message to “HaplessBillsFan” If you’re a moderator here, you could at least explain so, and briefly state your authorities. I’m assuming you may be a moderator since my response to Brooklyn Bill was deleted. I took the time and answered BrooklynBills questions one by one in a logic sequence and you (or someone) took offense to the actual Indian translation of Brooklyn. What about the false accusations made towards me by BrooklynBill? Was that considered civil ? He can say whatever he wants (and I support it) but his post remains. I guess you just don’t care for my viewpoints and made that an excuse. Next I suppose you’re just going to disable my account - just to show that you can ..... we will see what your moral authority leads you to do. I get it now, I saw your other most recent posts, my view points don’t coincide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 50 minutes ago, BillsNutHawaii said: Thats right, I did conflate - can you believe it ! And guess what, I can conflate anything I want - what’s it to you ? Its a free country. As for you, go ahead and perpetuate the outrage and be miserable - I don’t care. You can continue to be stunned and outraged - hope it makes you feel better. As for me, I’ll stick with my hard work and positive attitude, it’s worked for me. Racism never goes away - you made that up about me - fake news on your part. If you work hard and don’t demand of others, then one is more likely to gain the favor of others / and I’ve seen that work time and time again. That’s my stance and I’m sticking to it. Millions of people around the world protesting?? You’re overlooking the hundreds of millions in the USA (or billions around the world) who ARE NOT PROTESTING and equally disgusted - we are the silent majority. See, I was nice, I addressed all your so called questions and concerns. Go ahead, reply with all your repugnant name calling, how stunned you continue to be, and wish me and my family the ultimate agony. Lol. I think you are missing the point of what racism is. It means if two people of different color work equally as hard as you suggest, the white person is paid more and advances more quickly. That's the whole point. It doesn't matter how hard you work when a black person is targeted by police and pulled over by police at a far greater rate than a white person. If a white person had committed the nonviolent crime of using counterfeit money, they would not die on the street. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxx Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 5 minutes ago, BillsNutHawaii said: Message to “HaplessBillsFan” If you’re a moderator here, you could at least explain so, and briefly state your authorities. I’m assuming you may be a moderator since my response to Brooklyn Bill was deleted. I took the time and answered BrooklynBills questions one by one in a logic sequence and you (or someone) took offense to the actual Indian translation of Brooklyn. What about the false accusations made towards me by BrooklynBill? Was that considered civil ? He can say whatever he wants (and I support it) but his post remains. I guess you just don’t care for my viewpoints and made that an excuse. Next I suppose you’re just going to disable my account - just to show that you can ..... we will see what your moral authority leads you to do. I get it now, I saw your other most recent posts, my view points don’t coincide just my 2 satoshi's here but... get over yourself. there is no exact science to moderation and as i said, it is a thankless job. if someone deemed your post deletion worthy, just move along, it's not that big of a deal. i mean... we're talking about cyber space here. take it for what it's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 5 hours ago, Rob's House said: So what do you say for the nearly half of the black community that doesn't believe racism is a major obstacle in their lives? Well, to start with, I'd like to hear a little more about this statistic. Can you provide a bit more detail about this - source, when, where, that kind of thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsNutHawaii Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, Foxx said: just my 2 satoshi's here but... get over yourself. there is no exact science to moderation and as i said, it is a thankless job. if someone deemed your post deletion worthy, just move along, it's not that big of a deal. i mean... we're talking about cyber space here. take it for what it's worth. understand your point, but I care about America, each and every person, just as I always did with my work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxx Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 4 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said: I think you are missing the point of what racism is. It means if two people of different color work equally as hard as you suggest, the white person is paid more and advances more quickly. That's the whole point. It doesn't matter how hard you work when a black person is targeted by police and pulled over by police at a far greater rate than a white person. If a white person had committed the nonviolent crime of using counterfeit money, they would not die on the street. i think this perspective omits several mitigating factors. does geography (ie; innercities) play a factor in the rate of being pulled over? what about optics (you know, driving a "junker"), does that play a factor? there is so much more at play than simply stating that, "a black person is pulled over at a far greater rate than a white person". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 14 minutes ago, BillsNutHawaii said: Message to “HaplessBillsFan” If you’re a moderator here, you could at least explain so, and briefly state your authorities. I’m assuming you may be a moderator since my response to Brooklyn Bill was deleted. You might wish to learn how to recognize a moderator and an administrator here. Hint: it shows up in every post I make. I encourage you to read the board Guidelines which are found here: https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/guidelines/ Your post was not deleted, it was edited to remove a small part. The reasons were explained in PM. If you have civil questions, I will answer them in PM. Check your PM. When contacted by a moderator, it's generally helpful to listen. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Seriously? No, Fromm is not responsible for the acts of his state nor for historical acts. But before he shoots off his mouth (or his fingers) you don't think he's obliged to understand the meaning of the stuff he says? Especially as it applies to the black men he's going to be depending upon for whatever NFL career he has? I would find this more persuasive if we were discussing a serious comment made publicly. I don't think one has an obligation to extensively study the history of an issue so as to avoid any topic that may offend the sensibilities of any particular group before making an off the cuff joke in a private text message. I think such an expectation highlights the absurdity of the situation. 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Once again: Freedom of Speech does not mean Freedom from Consequences. I didn't raise this as a free speech issue because I don't think that applies, but I generally don't think much of that statement. By this definition every society in the history of the world has had the unfettered right of free speech. From Stalin's Soviet Union, to Hitler's Germany, to Mao's China, everyone has had the unfettered right to speak freely, provided they were willing to accept the consequences. Certainly your freedom of speech does not eliminate my freedom to respond, or judge your speech. However, if I respect the principle of free speech I will not seek out to destroy those who say things I find incorrect or offensive. I may choose not to interact or do business with that person, but you will not catch me organizing boycotts to threaten others into silence. 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Fromm is responsible for what he says, we agree so far, right? Fromm can choose, if he likes, to say stuff that he thinks is a funny har har without obligation to understand the historical context that makes it especially offensive to black men. Then his teammates and others around the league can choose to think he's a racist jerk they don't want to play with and "check him, no cap". I've never suggested otherwise. 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: He has no obligation to understand history or what the world looks like to them; they have no obligation to give him the benefit of the doubt. Fair? My thoughts on this turns on how strictly we're defining the term "obligation." 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Look around you at photos of boardrooms....government officials. Those photos are predominated by white men, many of whom are on factual record as having said various racist sexist or otherwise biased things. And yet, there they are, untrammeled and unaffected. But somehow people like yourself get all worked up about some "clear and present threat of professional and social destruction" which never seems to actually take place, whenever there's an attempt to call some of these people to account for what they say. I'd like to hear some clear cut examples of this, because I don't know of many. I do, on the other hand, know of many people who have lost their livelihoods and been subject to organized boycotts because of comments that were deemed offensive to an historically oppressed minority. I can't think of a single instance where the inverse has occurred, but if you have examples I'm happy to listen. 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Witness Fromm. It is clear he's still on the team, and will be given the opportunity to try to "build a relationship with the team and prove his worth as a player". So much for all the"cue the violins" stuff about "the crime of making an ironic joke in a private text.... his career potentially over before it begins....he's now a social pariah who will be burdened by this for life." Good. That's what I was suggesting should happen. If you read back through this thread there were many others who disagreed and thought he should be cut. Several media commentators agreed. And there is a good likelihood that this will follow him for the rest of his career. Perhaps it will become an afterthought, but that is certainly far from certain. I don't see how that undercuts any points I have made in this thread. 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Give me a break. You have thirty minutes, but make sure you clock out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 2 hours ago, Billl said: So it’s not an enormous issue because its only a huge obstacle (as opposed to a minor obstacle, regular obstacle, or non obstacle) t 50% of black Americans, then it’s not a huge problem? THAT is your position? Cancer isn’t a huge obstacle in the lives of the 50% of people who will never get it. He’d rather assign absurd, extreme positions to you. That’s easier than discussing your actual words. I think if you expect others to accept your position and act affirmatively in accordance with that position you have an obligation to support and quantify your claims. I don't personally know anyone who is oppressing any minorities so I'm at a loss for how to address the issue. Assuming you are facing significant systemic oppression imposed upon you by racist white people I would be open to hearing about it. If there's something within reason I can do to remedy the problem I'm happy to help. But I'm not going to blindly throw my support behind movements that appear to me to have ulterior motives without something a little more clear than the vague platitudes that dominate the discourse. And telling me that I can't understand because I'm not you so I just have to take your word for it isn't very persuasive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregPersons Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Rob's House said: I notice that neither of you has attempted to make any argument addressing the points themselves. "OMG" and "white privilege" aren't arguments. We both know that neither of you can back up your positions or explain the inconsistencies that are inherent in them, but you could at least try. Be the Little Engine that could. If this is really the best you can do you may want to question why are you so certain? People who are clearly right don't usually struggle so mightily to explain themselves. This is truly incredible. "I am white. I demand everybody explain to me why my insistence that I am the victim of racism to be wrong. This is my right. Explain this to me." Can we do a zoom call? Can we arrange that? I just want you to read what you wrote, out loud with your mouth, and I want to get a video of it. Is that cool? You don't need to use your name. Just stand by your ideas with your face. You believe in what you're saying, don't you? You should be able to stand up to a little bit of laughter for your ideas that you recognize are unconventional. I'm sure you can handle it, being the big strong genius you are. Let's do a zoom call where you read your posts, that you've written, out loud. Let's do it. I am so serious. Edited June 7, 2020 by GregPersons 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 2 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 5 minutes ago, Rob's House said: I would find this more persuasive if we were discussing a serious comment made publicly. I don't think one has an obligation to extensively study the history of an issue so as to avoid any topic that may offend the sensibilities of any particular group before making an off the cuff joke in a private text message. I think such an expectation highlights the absurdity of the situation. Well, it's a good thing that's a total straw man and not an expectation I laid out then, isn't it? I personally find the comments a person makes in private when they don't think they're gonna be overheard or publicized to be far more illuminating as to their actual beliefs and character, but You Do You. 5 minutes ago, Rob's House said: Certainly your freedom of speech does not eliminate my freedom to respond, or judge your speech. However, if I respect the principle of free speech I will not seek out to destroy those who say things I find incorrect or offensive. I may choose not to interact or do business with that person, but you will not catch me organizing boycotts to threaten others into silence. Oh for toast sake, who has organized a boycott to threaten Fromm into silence? Choosing not to interact or do business with that person is what's at issue here. 5 minutes ago, Rob's House said: I'd like to hear some clear cut examples of this, because I don't know of many. You don't know of many examples of powerful white men - CEOs, executives, politicians, government officials who are on factual record as having said various racist sexist or otherwise biased things and yet remain, untrammeled and unaffected? Seriously? Srsly? SMH. S.M.D.H. Hokay, but given that, I'm sorry I can't assign much credibility to the claim you know all these dudes who have lost their livelihoods been victims of boycotts blah blah over remarks deemed offensive by a minority. Peace out, though I still would like to understand the source of that 50% of blacks don't find racism...thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtbag Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, Rob's House said: And telling me that I can't understand because I'm not you so I just have to take your word for it isn't very persuasive. true. i only experience the world from my limited perspective and if you view it differently, that's on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Peace out, though I still would like to understand the source of that 50% of blacks don't find racism...thing. He should go out and conduct a survey. 7 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: honestly all we have is a bad joke that really only makes sense with more context that we didn't get. I mean was the joke about how obvious the idea of not giving silencers to minorities and poor whites, is it that the idea of restricting it to rich white people is ridiculous? We don't know because we didn't see the rest of/other conversations that make this make sense. Edited June 7, 2020 by Warcodered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 15 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: The man is a true leader. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Well, it's a good thing that's a total straw man and not an expectation I laid out then, isn't it? It's necessarily implied by your statement Quote I personally find the comments a person makes in private when they don't think they're gonna be overheard or publicized to be far more illuminating as to their actual beliefs and character, but You Do You. You're shifting. That wasn't the point of anything either of us said. Quote Oh for toast sake, who has organized a boycott to threaten Fromm into silence? Choosing not to interact or do business with that person is what's at issue here. You weren't discussing Fromm in the portion of your post that I responded to with that. Quote You don't know of many examples of powerful white men - CEOs, executives, politicians, government officials who are on factual record as having said various racist sexist or otherwise biased things and yet remain, untrammeled and unaffected? Seriously? Srsly? SMH. S.M.D.H. Still waiting for an example. If they are so plentiful I would expect you could source several with ease. Quote Hokay, but given that, I'm sorry I can't assign much credibility to the claim you know all these dudes who have lost their livelihoods been victims of boycotts blah blah over remarks deemed offensive by a minority. You can't even type censored.com into a Facebook post. Quote Peace out, though I still would like to understand the source of that 50% of blacks don't find racism...thing. If I have time I'll try to find the survey, but it showed that almost half of black people did not find racism to be a major obstacle in their own lives. 23 minutes ago, GregPersons said: This is truly incredible. "I am white. I demand everybody explain to me why my insistence that I am the victim of racism to be wrong. This is my right. Explain this to me." Can we do a zoom call? Can we arrange that? I just want you to read what you wrote, out loud with your mouth, and I want to get a video of it. Is that cool? You don't need to use your name. Just stand by your ideas with your face. You believe in what you're saying, don't you? You should be able to stand up to a little bit of laughter for your ideas that you recognize are unconventional. I'm sure you can handle it, being the big strong genius you are. Let's do a zoom call where you read your posts, that you've written, out loud. Let's do it. I am so serious. Words, words, and more words, yet you continue to say nothing. Notice that still, after all these posts, not one of you has countered with any substantive evidence to support your position. Hapless is the only one who has even attempted to put forth an argument. You've offered nothing, because you clearly have nothing to offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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