Drew Brees: Controversial comments

[Gugny]

28 minutes ago, BillsFan17 said:

This whole post was simply a way to call people rednecks. There was zero substance, there was zero facts, just you going off about rednecks and "killing machines." You dismiss that no one was hurt, all those "killing machines" and NOT A SINGLE DEATH. If they truly are these brutal killing machines, how was it so many gathered and not a single killing? Moreover, what the ***** are you talking about this isnt the wild west? They obtained permits, they coordinated with law officials, they demonstrated peacefully, what are you talking about?

 

Was it the same rhetoric when the 2nd amendment March in Virginia when ALL ETHNICITIES WERE THERE? All carrying "killing machines," or are they only "killing machines" when white people protest an absolutely absurd Michigan government?

 

You want to be racist against white people, have a day, not going to make me flinch, but just expose your self.

 

 

 

The held their big, bad guns and posed while people looted behind them.  They weren't there to save the day.  They were there to show off their toys and to feel tough.  Bringing a gun to a protest is one thing and one thing only:  stupid.

 

And their need for bravado has NOTHING to do with race, which seems to be what you're hung up on.

 

Racist against white people.  Now THAT is cute.  Bless your little heart.

 

Lastly, I will not expose myself.  I swear to Allah, you gun nuts all have some weird kinks.  Did you know Lady G., owns an AR-15?

 

 

[Coach Tuesday]

12 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

The held their big, bad guns and posed while people looted behind them.  They weren't there to save the day.  They were there to show off their toys and to feel tough.  Bringing a gun to a protest is one thing and one thing only:  stupid.

 

And their need for bravado has NOTHING to do with race, which seems to be what you're hung up on.

 

Racist against white people.  Now THAT is cute.  Bless your little heart.

 

Lastly, I will not expose myself.  I swear to Allah, you gun nuts all have some weird kinks.  Did you know Lady G., owns an AR-15?

 

 

I mean doesn’t this just sum it up? 

Angry white bros - check!
Pickup truck - check!

Trump banner - check!

Works in the corrections department - check!

Completely disrespecting flag without anyone complaining or noting the hypocrisy - check!

Threatening violence and intimidation - check!

Edited June 10, 2020 by Coach Tuesday

[Blokestradamus]

1 hour ago, BillsFan17 said:

This whole post was simply a way to call people rednecks.

 

I hate to break it to you but the people that Gug was talking about protecting businesses called themselves rednecks.

 

https://nypost.com/2020/05/28/armed-rednecks-stave-off-looters-amid-george-floyd-protests/

Edited June 10, 2020 by Blokestradamus

[BillsFan17]

18 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

I hate to break it to you but the people that Gug was talking about protecting businesses called themselves rednecks.

 

https://nypost.com/2020/05/28/armed-rednecks-stave-off-looters-amid-george-floyd-protests/

Its clear we are talking about two entirely different groups of people. In my post I was talking about the people protesting in Michigan.  

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

The held their big, bad guns and posed while people looted behind them.  They weren't there to save the day.  They were there to show off their toys and to feel tough.  Bringing a gun to a protest is one thing and one thing only:  stupid.

 

And their need for bravado has NOTHING to do with race, which seems to be what you're hung up on.

 

Racist against white people.  Now THAT is cute.  Bless your little heart.

 

Lastly, I will not expose myself.  I swear to Allah, you gun nuts all have some weird kinks.  Did you know Lady G., owns an AR-15?

 

 

You are clearly talking about something entirely different. You attacked my posts out of context. 

 

The original post I was responding to was talking about the protests in Michigan a few weeks ago, I even then pointed that out. We are talking about two entirely different things.

[Gugny]

4 minutes ago, BillsFan17 said:

Its clear we are talking about two entirely different groups of people. In my post I was talking about the people protesting in Michigan.  

You are clearly talking about something entirely different. You attacked my posts out of context. 

 

The original post I was responding to was talking about the protests in Michigan a few weeks ago, I even then pointed that out. We are talking about two entirely different things.

 

Those rednecks were even MORE dangerous and should have been arrested.  That was a disgusting display and - again - nothing but bravado.  It was gross and it does not represent the America that I once loved.  

[BillsFan17]

5 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Those rednecks were even MORE dangerous and should have been arrested.  That was a disgusting display and - again - nothing but bravado.  It was gross and it does not represent the America that I once loved.  

Okay, yeah, so you clearly attacked my comments to grandstand. You have an axe to grind, good for you, but it doesn't resonate with me at all. You showed your true colors.

 

Those people had every right to do what they did, again, did it lawfully, peacefully and not a single person was hurt, not a single business was looted. Michigan's government has been a joke for a long time. Prove that wrong, if you can, there can be some discourse, but you can't.

 

You have your narrative, you have your rhetoric, and thats blatantly evident by the fact you went off without even being on the same page. 

 

The "America i once loved" the same one founded on people protesting ***** government... weird

 

Also, remind me, if this country is systemically racist, and it is institutionalized, which America did you love? 

Edited June 10, 2020 by BillsFan17

[Gugny]

5 minutes ago, BillsFan17 said:

Okay, yeah, so you clearly attacked my comments to grandstand. You have an axe to grind, good for you, but it doesn't resonate with me at all. You showed your true colors.

 

Those people had every right to do what they did, again, did it lawfully, peacefully and not a single person was hurt, not a single business was looted. Michigan's government has been a joke for a long time. Prove that wrong, if you can, there can be some discourse, but you can't.

 

You have your narrative, you have your rhetoric, and thats blatantly evident by the fact you went off without even being on the same page. 

 

The "America i once loved" the same one founded on people protesting ***** government... weird

 

Also, remind me, if this country is systemically racist, and it is institutionalized, which America did you love? 

 

Yes, because things that happened 200 years ago are PERFECTLY RELEVANT to what's happening today.  Get a grip.  No one has the right to carry killing machines and force their way into a building ... let alone a government office.  Give me a break with "lawfully and peacefully."  It was neither.

 

[BillsFan17]

1 minute ago, Gugny said:

 

Yes, because things that happened 200 years ago are PERFECTLY RELEVANT to what's happening today.  Get a grip.  No one has the right to carry killing machines and force their way into a building ... let alone a government office.  Give me a break with "lawfully and peacefully."  It was neither.

 

They obtained permits, they coordinated with the police, they had the right to have those fire arms. Show we anywhere what they did was illegal... ill wait 

 

Also, what America did you love, if its been historically and systemically racist? 

Edited June 10, 2020 by BillsFan17

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, BillsFan17 said:

They obtained permits, they coordinated with the police, they had the right to have those fire arms. Show we anywhere what they did was illegal... ill wait 

 

If it was a group of black men who did the same thing, they would all be dead right now and the police would be heroes.

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Gugny

[BillsFan17]

1 minute ago, Gugny said:

 

If it was a group of black men who did the same thing, they would all be dead right now.

You have absolutely zero proof of that, you are making absolutely no factual arguments. You are trying to push an agenda and again, it's not resonating. Prove your statements, otherwise, take a lap.

[Gugny]

Just now, BillsFan17 said:

You have absolutely zero proof of that, you are making absolutely no factual arguments. You are trying to push an agenda and again, it's not resonating. Prove your statements, otherwise, take a lap.

 

Okay, I'll pose it as a question:  Do you think that, if a group of black men brandishing high-power firearms stormed their way into a government building, it would end peacefully?

 

The only agenda I'm pushing is that endorsing that redneck, bullying behavior is indicative of the "leadership," we currently (don't) have in this country.  And anyone behind that kind of behavior, "because it's their right," is a major part of the problem.

[BillsFan17]

Just now, Gugny said:

 

Okay, I'll pose it as a question:  Do you think that, if a group of black men brandishing high-power firearms stormed their way into a government building, it would end peacefully?

 

The only agenda I'm pushing is that endorsing that redneck, bullying behavior is indicative of the "leadership," we currently (don't) have in this country.  And anyone behind that kind of behavior, "because it's their right," is a major part of the problem.

I really don't know how many more times we have to go around in this circle. THEY COORDINATED WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. They obtained permits, they were peaceful, they took the correct steps to do what they did WITHIN THE SCOPE OF THE ***** LAW.

 

And the best part of this, 

look at those big guns!!! Oh boy

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, BillsFan17 said:

I really don't know how many more times we have to go around in this circle. THEY COORDINATED WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. They obtained permits, they were peaceful, they took the correct steps to do what they did WITHIN THE SCOPE OF THE ***** LAW.

 

And the best part of this, 

look at those big guns!!! Oh boy

 

Did you read the article?  Or was it just the headline and pictures of colored people carrying guns that made you feel real good?

 

Lynn watched a video that Anthony posted to Facebook as the protest formed last week. In it, she looked on from her office across the street as protestors slowly crowded the Capitol Lawn carrying Confederate flags, Nazi symbolism, nooses and other blatantly racist forms of imagery.

 

After some demonstrators eventually made it inside the building last week, one maskless and gun-toting protester got so close to Anthony’s face that she could smell his breath. And lawmakers shouldn’t be scared to come into work because of armed intimidation, she said.

 

“The majority of the protesters were white,” Anthony said. “I’m still not exactly sure on the connection between confederate flags and Nazi symbolism. They just had no connection to the stay-at-home orders. The fact they were carrying guns openly while we voted was unnerving.”

[BillsFan17]

Just now, Gugny said:

 

Did you read the article?  Or was it just the headline and pictures of colored people carrying guns that made you feel real good?

 

Lynn watched a video that Anthony posted to Facebook as the protest formed last week. In it, she looked on from her office across the street as protestors slowly crowded the Capitol Lawn carrying Confederate flags, Nazi symbolism, nooses and other blatantly racist forms of imagery.

 

After some demonstrators eventually made it inside the building last week, one maskless and gun-toting protester got so close to Anthony’s face that she could smell his breath. And lawmakers shouldn’t be scared to come into work because of armed intimidation, she said.

 

“The majority of the protesters were white,” Anthony said. “I’m still not exactly sure on the connection between confederate flags and Nazi symbolism. They just had no connection to the stay-at-home orders. The fact they were carrying guns openly while we voted was unnerving.”

Black men with guns would have been killed was your optic, i showed you you were wrong.

 

Its okay I'll keep dealing in facts and you'll keep reaching.

[Gugny]

10 minutes ago, BillsFan17 said:

Black men with guns would have been killed was your optic, i showed you you were wrong.

 

Its okay I'll keep dealing in facts and you'll keep reaching.

 

 

Nah.  I"m done.  Let's get this back on topic:  Drew Brees' fake remorse.

[C.Biscuit97]

Brees is allowed his stupid opinion just like CK was and every other player.  It’s stupid and Ill formed but that’s fine.  And now the snowflakes have turned on Brees for trying to gain insight  on the real reason for the protest.  
 

I’m so sick of this two party garbage.  Someone else said it but it’s destroying the country.  Breaking news: both parties suck yet people defend their side like it’s a family member.  Trying forming your own opinions in life.  Things will be much better that way. 

[Rocky Landing]

22 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

It is not okay for a bunch of rednecks to show up to a "protest" with killing machines under the guise of "protecting business owners," because the police "weren't doing their jobs."

 

I don't care if they were holding Daisy bb guns.  It's not how our country works.  They were there to intimidate people and to show off their fancy weaponry, which they likely bought because they have innies for *****.

 

The fact that no one was hurt means absolutely nothing.  We do not live in the wild, wild west.  We do not live (legally) in a vigilante society.  And I'll lastly point out that those big, tough rednecks with their killing machines stopped exactly zero people from breaking the law.

 

Just a bunch of wusses with guns.  

 

That is not the America that I served for and it is not the Constitution that I served to protect.  

 

What it is .. is a bunch of rednecks flexing their muscles and doing exactly nothing to help exactly no one.

 

 

Cosplayers, I call them.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

15 hours ago, BillsFan17 said:

You have absolutely zero proof of that, you are making absolutely no factual arguments. You are trying to push an agenda and again, it's not resonating. Prove your statements, otherwise, take a lap.

 

Since it didn't happen that way, what would you accept as proof?

 

-If a white man legally carrying a registered firearm who disclosed this to police during what he was told was a traffic stop for a taillight being out, was told to get out his wallet, and was killed while doing so, don't you think the NRA would have screamed bloody murder?   Philando Castile: NRA sez "We can not comment while the investigation is ongoing"

-If a white man sleeping in bed with his GF seized a legal firearm to defend himself and his GF in response to people breaking into his GF's apartment, don't you think the NRA would be hailing him as a hero and saying the police and their no-knock warrent and 22 shot response were out of line for a citizen exercising his 2nd amendment rights?  Kenneth Walker/Breonna Taylor: NRA sez (*crickets*)

 

I think there are enough cases where the law enforcement reaction to black people with legal firearms exercising their legal rights, differs from the law enforcement reaction to white people with legal firearms exercising their legal rights that while we can not prove the outcome would be different had the Michegan Statehouse protesters been black, it looks rather probable given the preponderance of previous reactions.

[BillsFan17]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Since it didn't happen that way, what would you accept as proof?

 

-If a white man legally carrying a registered firearm who disclosed this to police during what he was told was a traffic stop for a taillight being out, was told to get out his wallet, and was killed while doing so, don't you think the NRA would have screamed bloody murder?   Philando Castile: NRA sez "We can not comment while the investigation is ongoing"

-If a white man sleeping in bed with his GF seized a legal firearm to defend himself and his GF in response to people breaking into his GF's apartment, don't you think the NRA would be hailing him as a hero and saying the police and their no-knock warrent and 22 shot response were out of line for a citizen exercising his 2nd amendment rights?  Kenneth Walker/Breonna Taylor: NRA sez (*crickets*)

 

I think there are enough cases where the law enforcement reaction to black people with legal firearms exercising their legal rights, differs from the law enforcement reaction to white people with legal firearms exercising their legal rights that while we can not prove the outcome would be different had the Michegan Statehouse protesters been black, it looks rather probable given the preponderance of previous reactions.

Show me the data to back that up, using hypothetical situations and what you think would happen, and protecting those beliefs doesn't make them facts. Again, prove those interactions are slanted one way or the other with some factual proof.

Edited June 11, 2020 by BillsFan17

[Coach Tuesday]

2 hours ago, BillsFan17 said:

Show me the data to back that up, using hypothetical situations and what you think would happen, and protecting those beliefs doesn't make them facts. Again, prove those interactions are slanted one way or the other with some factual proof.

Maybe he’d undertake that near-impossible task if you first post some examples of you actually changing your mind about something in your lifetime.  

[BillsFan17]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Maybe he’d undertake that near-impossible task if you first post some examples of you actually changing your mind about something in your lifetime.  

I'll gladly be open to hearing any data that backs up an argument, or anything that can substantiate the argument, and make an informed decision based on that.

 

You, among others wanting me to see something for what its not, and telling me to just bend at your will makes no sense.

 

If someone wants to make a claim they swear as truth, well prove it, bring the facts to the table.

[Rob's House]

2 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Maybe he’d undertake that near-impossible task if you first post some examples of you actually changing your mind about something in your lifetime.  

 

If the position is nearly impossible to support, why are you so confident it's correct?

 

The problem with nearly all these arguments is that they're based purely on conjecture, cliches, and anecdotal evidence. That is the exact opposite of the scientific method.

 

Hypotheticals are nothing more than conjecture supported by the speakers own bias. Anecdotes give no frame of reference for scale. They grossly over or underrepresent the phenomenon being depicted. Everyone understands this when Sean Hannity does it with illegal immigrants, but it's a different story when it fits the narrative. But

 

This clearly unreliable method that is roundly rejected in all fields of study, is the foundation of "the most important issue facing our nation."

 

Despite the glaring lack of supporting evidence, the mere suggestion that the perception of disparity may be an illusion sparks anger. 

 

The empirical evidence overwhelmingly suggests that any disparity that may exist is statistically negligible. I've scoured the internet for the last two weeks and have not seen one person attempt to support this conclusion with anything resembling the scientific method and empirical data. 

 

If you're not allowed to honestly question a theory it's usually because someone is afraid they don't have a good answer. Otherwise they'd welcome the question as an opportunity to explain their position instead of coming down on you with sanctimony and derision.

 

Not everyone has the strength of character to honestly question and actively challenge their own core beliefs. It's much easier to demonize those who would challenge them for you.

 

[Jauronimo]

49 minutes ago, Rob's House said:

 

If the position is nearly impossible to support, why are you so confident it's correct?

 

The problem with nearly all these arguments is that they're based purely on conjecture, cliches, and anecdotal evidence. That is the exact opposite of the scientific method.

 

Hypotheticals are nothing more than conjecture supported by the speakers own bias. Anecdotes give no frame of reference for scale. They grossly over or underrepresent the phenomenon being depicted. Everyone understands this when Sean Hannity does it with illegal immigrants, but it's a different story when it fits the narrative. But

 

This clearly unreliable method that is roundly rejected in all fields of study, is the foundation of "the most important issue facing our nation."

 

Despite the glaring lack of supporting evidence, the mere suggestion that the perception of disparity may be an illusion sparks anger. 

 

The empirical evidence overwhelmingly suggests that any disparity that may exist is statistically negligible. I've scoured the internet for the last two weeks and have not seen one person attempt to support this conclusion with anything resembling the scientific method and empirical data. 

 

If you're not allowed to honestly question a theory it's usually because someone is afraid they don't have a good answer. Otherwise they'd welcome the question as an opportunity to explain their position instead of coming down on you with sanctimony and derision.

 

Not everyone has the strength of character to honestly question and actively challenge their own core beliefs. It's much easier to demonize those who would challenge them for you.

 

I would link directly to the WaPo but the article is now behind a paywall and I don't subscribe.

 

https://thesocietypages.org/toolbox/police-killing-of-blacks/

 

Some discussion on the rate of unarmed deaths.  5% looks like a low number but its 1 in 20 individuals.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

 

Maybe the issue isn't systemic or nationwide, but it certainly looks like Minneapolis has a problem.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/06/03/minneapolis-police-are-7-times-more-likely-to-use-force-against-black-people/#7c8cdafb1321

 

All the stats I've seen over the years are consistent and point to materially higher rates of shootings and fatalities.  I disagree with the assertion of negligible differences. 

 

One major grey area is situation and relevant facts as detailed in the "Is this the right comparison?" paragraphs.  We also have no statistics in how many times a routine traffic stop results in an arrest or jaywalking like the video from Tulsa.  We do have lots of anecdotal evidence and together with the raw data it tells a consistent story.  Make your own conclusions.

 

 

[Rob's House]

4 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

I would link directly to the WaPo but the article is now behind a paywall and I don't subscribe.

 

https://thesocietypages.org/toolbox/police-killing-of-blacks/

 

Some discussion on the rate of unarmed deaths.  5% looks like a low number but its 1 in 20 individuals.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

 

Maybe the issue isn't systemic or nationwide, but it certainly looks like Minneapolis has a problem.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/06/03/minneapolis-police-are-7-times-more-likely-to-use-force-against-black-people/#7c8cdafb1321

 

All the stats I've seen over the years are consistent and point to materially higher rates of shootings and fatalities.  I disagree with the assertion of negligible differences. 

 

One major grey area is situation and relevant facts as detailed in the "Is this the right comparison?" paragraphs.  We also have no statistics in how many times a routine traffic stop results in an arrest or jaywalking like the video from Tulsa.  We do have lots of anecdotal evidence and together with the raw data it tells a consistent story.  Make your own conclusions.

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

This is an extremely reasonable approach.

 

To be clear, it is not my position that there is no disparity anywhere in the country - it varies from locality to locality - but rather that the facts do not support the theory as it is being presented in the mainstream.

 

The issue is far more complex than the current narrative would suggest, and there is certainly room to debate the topic, but the extreme rhetoric and absolute certainty, particularly wrt to some assertions that are patently and demonstrably false, is troubling. The fervent desire to brand others as racists for questioning the narrative is even more troubling.

 

I don't have time at the moment to delve into your articles, but I'll try to circle back this evening.

 

Based on the data I've seen, I don't think there's a strong case for the theory that racism causes black men face a disproportionate threat of death at the hands of police on a national level, but when someone presents their argument in a reasonable manner, and offers support for it as you have, I'm much more inclined to listen. I think if this was the approach being taken across the country we'd make a lot more progress.