Kittle looking for a "Kittle Deal"

[NewEra]

15 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

So what?  Teams don't consider only that when valuing a player ("but is he the best in history for receiving yards for TEs after their first 3 years???  Yes?   Well then, how much should we write the check for?")---I mean, you're joking right?   It's not a point worth making for the actual difference.  

 

Kittle:  2945 yards, 12 TDs

 

Gronk:  2663 yards, 38 TDs

 

Graham: 2648 yards, 25 TDs (for good measure, he had 1215 yards/16 TDs the next year---and STILL didn't get paid like a top WR)

 

Mike Evans, an actual WR, is the ONLY WR one IN history to HAVE 1000 yards in the first 5 years of his career......and HE didn't get 18 million in his recent contract extension.

Who was throwing the ball to gronk? Oh yeah.  Who was throwing the ball to Graham? Oh yeah.  

Idc troll. say w/e you like.  I’ll just say, I told ya so when he gets over 15 a year, which is the only topic I’ve been talking about. 
 

you’re talking about WRs, when WRs have NOTHING to do with what I’VE been talking about.  Which I’ve stated.  But carry on
 

 

You’re reaching with the stats.  

[Mr. WEO]

2 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Who was throwing the ball to gronk? Oh yeah.  Who was throwing the ball to Graham? Oh yeah.  

Idc troll. say w/e you like.  I’ll just say, I told ya so when he gets over 15 a year, which is the only topic I’ve been talking about. 
 

you’re talking about WRs, when WRs have NOTHING to do with what I’VE been talking about.  Which I’ve stated.  But carry on
 

 

You’re reaching with the stats.  

 

 

You reached for the stats.....

 

So Kittle should get 50% more than any other TE because he's handicapped by his QB?  If he has under 1000 this season....maybe that bumps him up to 17M a year asking?

[billsfan89]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Why would it take a year or two for the rookie WR to take away targets?  Samuel did it this past season no problem. 

 

What does Kittle do when he lines up in the backfield?

 

In 2016, Kelce signed for under 10M a year--that's less than what NO payed Graham.  Yet 2 years later he would have gotten 15M?  Did Graham get Larry Fitzgerald money after 3 years that were arguably at least as good as Kittle's?  no.  Show me any player in NFL history who "hit the open market" and got a 50% bump over the position max contract.

 

 

 

Kittle lines up to block and receive out of the backfield. Because he can block like a good full back him being in the backfield doesn't tip him off as a decoy. It just adds to the versatility of him as a player. In January of 2016 Kelce was coming off of back to back 800 yard seasons. Two years later he would have been coming off of an increase in yards (back to back 1000 yard seasons) and TD's while being more established. He easily would have gotten a lot more. For one the cap increased in those years and two he would have gone from top 5-10 to top 2 production at the position. If Kelce got a similar deal to what Gronk got (7.5% as a percentage of cap) in 2012 adjusted for the 2018 salary cap he would be paid at an average of 13.25 million. If Kittle got 7.5% of the projected 2021 salary cap he would be paid 16.25 million. I think given the increased positional rarity he could command 8% of the cap (Which would put him above 17 million) given the right market.

 

I don't think there has ever been a positional depression like there has been at TE. A top elite talent hasn't been in a position to negotiate a contract at the position since the Salary cap was over 30% lower in 2015 (Jimmy Graham.) The two elite talents at their position that are on their second contracts signed deals in the 2016 off-season before their production ballooned. Kittle would be the first elite TE to sign a contract in 7 years by the time his deal is up. That's going to cause a huge increase in his market. 

 

I can't think of another position in the league that has had such a wonky market where the top 3 players at the position on their second contracts are locked into deals signed just before their big outbreak. 

15 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

You reached for the stats.....

 

So Kittle should get 50% more than any other TE because he's handicapped by his QB?  If he has under 1000 this season....maybe that bumps him up to 17M a year asking?

 

I think you are ignoring the circumstances of the top contracts at the position. The top TE's in the league have had locked in deals since 2016 when they weren't producing at elite levels. Gronk set the standard at 7.5% of cap for a TE and I think Kittle if he has another really good season would easily command that which would put him at 16+ million aav and he could if he gets a team to give him a bit more get to the 17-18 million range.

Edited June 2, 2020 by billsfan89

[Mr. WEO]

19 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Kittle lines up to block and receive out of the backfield. Because he can block like a good full back him being in the backfield doesn't tip him off as a decoy. It just adds to the versatility of him as a player. In January of 2016 Kelce was coming off of back to back 800 yard seasons. Two years later he would have been coming off of an increase in yards (back to back 1000 yard seasons) and TD's while being more established. He easily would have gotten a lot more. For one the cap increased in those years and two he would have gone from top 5-10 to top 2 production at the position. If Kelce got a similar deal to what Gronk got (7.5% as a percentage of cap) in 2012 adjusted for the 2018 salary cap he would be paid at an average of 13.25 million. If Kittle got 7.5% of the projected 2021 salary cap he would be paid 16.25 million. I think given the increased positional rarity he could command 8% of the cap (Which would put him above 17 million) given the right market.

 

I don't think there has ever been a positional depression like there has been at TE. A top elite talent hasn't been in a position to negotiate a contract at the position since the Salary cap was over 30% lower in 2015 (Jimmy Graham.) The two elite talents at their position that are on their second contracts signed deals in the 2016 off-season before their production ballooned. Kittle would be the first elite TE to sign a contract in 7 years by the time his deal is up. That's going to cause a huge increase in his market. 

 

I can't think of another position in the league that has had such a wonky market where the top 3 players at the position on their second contracts are locked into deals signed just before their big outbreak. 

 

I think you are ignoring the circumstances of the top contracts at the position. The top TE's in the league have had locked in deals since 2016 when they weren't producing at elite levels. Gronk set the standard at 7.5% of cap for a TE and I think Kittle if he has another really good season would easily command that which would put him at 17+ million aav. 

 

With no fans in the stands, the cap is going down.

 

There is no standard for what % of any teams' cap a position will get.  

 

Kittles contract is up after this season (2020).  Kelce signed his contract in 2016.  4 years, not 7.  Kelce got less than 7.5% of the 2016 cap in his new deal (6.2%--and less and and less each year as the cap went up) so Gronk didn't set the standard.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Mr. WEO

[NewEra]

38 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

You reached for the stats.....

 

So Kittle should get 50% more than any other TE because he's handicapped by his QB?  If he has under 1000 this season....maybe that bumps him up to 17M a year asking?

He WILL. This has nothing to do with what should or shouldn’t.  Just wait and see.  

[Mr. WEO]

25 minutes ago, NewEra said:

He WILL. This has nothing to do with what should or shouldn’t.  Just wait and see.  

 

 

OK!

[billsfan89]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

With no fans in the stands, the cap is going down.

 

There is no standard for what % of any teams' cap a position will get.  

 

Kittles contract is up after this season (2020).  Kelce signed his contract in 2016.  4 years, not 7.  Kelce got less than 7.5% of the 2016 cap in his new deal (6.2%--and less and and less each year as the cap went up) so Gronk didn't set the standard.

 

I feel like you are being purposefully dense. Kelce after the 2015 season was not the caliber of TE he is now. He was only coming off of two 800+ yard seasons with 5 TD's each season. Very good numbers but not elite Gronk or Graham like numbers (the two top TE's of that time.) So you keep brining up Kelce like he was the player he is now when he signed that deal. Had Kelce singed that deal after 2016 or 2017 when he eclipsed 1000 yards and the conversation for best TE in the league was between him and Gronk he would have likely gotten 7.5% of the cap or close. 

 

Also I pointed out that the last TE to negotiate a deal while being an elite TE was Graham who signed a deal after the 2014 season. By the time Kittle signs a new deal it will be 2021 which will be 7 years without the market being tested. Kelce and Ertz didn't test the market because they weren't top end guys when they signed extensions.

 

I agree that yes if the cap increase goes down due to fans in the stands (I can't see the raw cap number going down from the 2020 level as most of the NFL's revenue stems from TV rights certainly will at least stay flat which amounts to a huge decrease) then that number will fluctuate. But I don't see how in any rational universe if Kittle stays healthy and puts in a third top tier season how he doesn't get a contract around 7.5% of the cap. Which would put him at least well over 15 million if the cap stays the same or similar. You are caught up on the Kelce numbers like he isn't massively underpaid and had he not been locked into a long term deal he wouldn't be paid 30-40% more at minimum. 

 

Kelce's contract is completely irrelevant to Kittle's because Kelce is drastically underpaid and did not negotiate his deal as an elite TE. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by billsfan89

[Mr. WEO]

8 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

I feel like you are being purposefully dense. Kelce after the 2015 season was not the caliber of TE he is now. He was only coming off of two 800+ yard seasons with 5 TD's each season. Very good numbers but not elite Gronk or Graham like numbers (the two top TE's of that time.) So you keep brining up Kelce like he was the player he is now when he signed that deal. Had Kelce singed that deal after 2016 or 2017 when he eclipsed 1000 yards and the conversation for best TE in the league was between him and Gronk he would have likely gotten 7.5% of the cap or close. 

 

Also I pointed out that the last TE to negotiate a deal while being an elite TE was Graham who signed a deal after the 2014 season. By the time Kittle signs a new deal it will be 2021 which will be 7 years without the market being tested. Kelce and Ertz didn't test the market because they weren't top end guys when they signed extensions.

 

I agree that yes if the cap increase goes down due to fans in the stands (I can't see the raw cap number going down from the 2020 level as most of the NFL's revenue stems from TV rights certainly will at least stay flat which amounts to a huge decrease) then that number will fluctuate. But I don't see how in any rational universe if Kittle stays healthy and puts in a third top tier season how he doesn't get a contract around 7.5% of the cap. Which would put him at least well over 15 million if the cap stays the same or similar. You are caught up on the Kelce numbers like he isn't massively underpaid and had he not been locked into a long term deal he wouldn't be paid 30-40% more at minimum. 

 

Kelce's contract is completely irrelevant to Kittle's because Kelce is drastically underpaid and did not negotiate his deal as an elite TE. 

 

 

So what happens if Kittle's yards (assuming he plays this year) are under, say, 900 and his avg of only 4 TDs a year goes to 2 or 3?  

 

Anyway, you keep coming with this "% of cap for TEs standard", which binds no GM/owner to....anything at all.  The value is in the current market max, the player's most recent work and overall value to the team.  Every team has a different value for any position based on their scheme.  If Shanahan starts targeting his WRs even more this season than last, Kittle's value as a receiver on this team obviously declines.  And no one is giving a 50% boost to a TE because he blocks nice.

 

I get it--you think a TE averaging under 1000 yards  and with a dozen TDs is going to get paid more than the only WR ever to go over 1000 for his first 5 seasons (Evans) and as much as a WR with 5500 yards, 32 TDs and 470 catches in his first 4 years (Thomas). 

 

I don't.

[billsfan89]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

So what happens if Kittle's yards (assuming he plays this year) are under, say, 900 and his avg of only 4 TDs a year goes to 2 or 3?  

 

Anyway, you keep coming with this "% of cap for TEs standard", which binds no GM/owner to....anything at all.  The value is in the current market max, the player's most recent work and overall value to the team.  Every team has a different value for any position based on their scheme.  If Shanahan starts targeting his WRs even more this season than last, Kittle's value as a receiver on this team obviously declines.  And no one is giving a 50% boost to a TE because he blocks nice.

 

I get it--you think a TE averaging under 1000 yards  and with a dozen TDs is going to get paid more than the only WR ever to go over 1000 for his first 5 seasons (Evans) and as much as a WR with 5500 yards, 32 TDs and 470 catches in his first 4 years (Thomas). 

 

I don't.

 

Agents negotiate based on past contracts percentage of cap. If Kittle underperforms in 2020 of course that hurts him and he could get hit. My point is that if he stays healthy and produces another very good elite season. He will justify a contract at 7.5% of the cap similar to what Gronk got. 

 

No tight end coming off of a 1000 yard season in the previous two years before getting an extension has come around since 2014. If Kittle has another good season he should see 7.5% of the cap as should Kelce. Also you keep averaging his rookie year numbers in with the previous 2 season where his production was elite to down play his numbers but given that after 4 years the least relevant season to his future production is his rookie year that won't be a barrier. 

 

If Kittle hits the market with a third 1000 yard season and is healthy he will easily get a Gronk percentage of the cap (at about 7.5%.) His market will be set between 15-18 million aav easily. 

 

Is 20 million like Thomas too high yes, but the range Kittle will be looking at is 15 to 18 million which should be between 7.25 and 8% of the cap depending on where the salary cap is set at. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by billsfan89

[Doc]

If I were his agent, I'd be demanding a new contract now.  He's sorely out-performed his rookie contract and waiting potentially only hurts him.

[Mr. WEO]

44 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Agents negotiate based on past contracts percentage of cap. If Kittle underperforms in 2020 of course that hurts him and he could get hit. My point is that if he stays healthy and produces another very good elite season. He will justify a contract at 7.5% of the cap similar to what Gronk got. 

 

No tight end coming off of a 1000 yard season in the previous two years before getting an extension has come around since 2014. If Kittle has another good season he should see 7.5% of the cap as should Kelce. Also you keep averaging his rookie year numbers in with the previous 2 season where his production was elite to down play his numbers but given that after 4 years the least relevant season to his future production is his rookie year that won't be a barrier. 

 

If Kittle hits the market with a third 1000 yard season and is healthy he will easily get a Gronk percentage of the cap (at about 7.5%.) His market will be set between 15-18 million aav easily. 

 

Is 20 million like Thomas too high yes, but the range Kittle will be looking at is 15 to 18 million which should be between 7.25 and 8% of the cap depending on where the salary cap is set at. 

 

I disagree.  We'll see what he does this year.  That will determine his value.

35 minutes ago, Doc said:

If I were his agent, I'd be demanding a new contract now.  He's sorely out-performed his rookie contract and waiting potentially only hurts him.

 

Holding out won't increase his value to the 49ers.

[NoSaint]

8 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

 

It's not an apples to apples choice though, my only point in brining up the Thomas contract is that the market is set at 20 million aav for a top pass catcher. The 49ers don't have the choice between Thomas and Kittle they have the choice to either let Kittle walk or pay him against the market. Do you think that if Kittle has another 1000 yard season and is healthy that some team wouldn't pony up at least 17-18 million aav for him? Elite TE's are the hardest to find and one hitting the market in his prime is going to command a huge deal. 

18m? I think it’s a real long shot he resets the TE market by 70-80% vs the second highest tight end and is paid in line with elite WR in a way no other tight end has been. 
 

if that is what you think an elite tight end deserves I will agree that they are very rare. So rare one that one apparently has never been found in the nfl. 
 

I do think they’d rather sign 2 top 5 tight ends at current top TE pay rates instead of kittle at that point. 

[Doc]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Holding out won't increase his value to the 49ers.

 

If he does and he takes a good portion of the offense with him, sure it increases his value.  I'm not sure the 49'ers want to chance it, coming so close to a SB win last year.

[Dragoon]

He deserves to reestablish the market. He’s incredible. 

[blacklabel]

Kittle me this, George! What do you get when you cross a shaggy haired hippie with natural athletic talent?!

 

You get what you fu- oh, uh, wrong quote. 

 

You probably get a big fat contract extension, fella. Good for him. Dude seems like a trip and a heck of a guy. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

If he does and he takes a good portion of the offense with him, sure it increases his value.  I'm not sure the 49'ers want to chance it, coming so close to a SB win last year.

 

Close to the SB win....maybe GB will give him that 18M!  Although GB would probably expect more playoff juice than they would get for that price....

 

Anyway, with the cap about to tank, Kittle's agent will have picked a very bad time to hold a team hostage.  The Offense will continue to pound the ball and throw to their WR and RB and anyone else---except now MORE than 80% of the time this season.   They threw to their RBs nearly as much and if they really need a RZ TD, they still have their go-to receiver.

[billsfan89]

6 hours ago, NoSaint said:

18m? I think it’s a real long shot he resets the TE market by 70-80% vs the second highest tight end and is paid in line with elite WR in a way no other tight end has been. 
 

if that is what you think an elite tight end deserves I will agree that they are very rare. So rare one that one apparently has never been found in the nfl. 
 

I do think they’d rather sign 2 top 5 tight ends at current top TE pay rates instead of kittle at that point. 

 

The numbers of "Resetting the market 70-80%" are completely irrelevant in the context of the tight end market which has not been tested. Travis Kelce and Zack Ertz the two other elite TE's in the game (and possibly Gronk depending on how good Gronk is when he gets back) signed their contracts in January of 2016 and both players had career high receiving yards of 875. No TE with two 1,000 yard seasons has hit the market since Jimmy Graham in the 2015 off-season. I would rather have an Ertz/Kelce/Kittle at 15-17 million than 2 Hooper or Henry type TE's for 20 million total. I think the difference between good and great at the position is significant enough to warrant that kind of money. 

 

If Kittle puts up another very good season I see no reason why he wouldn't command 7.5% of the cap like Gronk did in 2012 which depending on where the cap lands puts him at 15-17 million aav and if he could get someone to overpay and give him 8% of the cap that's 18 million possibly if the cap hits closer to the 2021 estimates. 

[Doc]

9 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Close to the SB win....maybe GB will give him that 18M!  Although GB would probably expect more playoff juice than they would get for that price....

 

Anyway, with the cap about to tank, Kittle's agent will have picked a very bad time to hold a team hostage.  The Offense will continue to pound the ball and throw to their WR and RB and anyone else---except now MORE than 80% of the time this season.   They threw to their RBs nearly as much and if they really need a RZ TD, they still have their go-to receiver.

 

Naw, GB gave up the moment they drafted a QB in the 1st.  And I saw Jimmy G miss a wide open Kittle several times in that fateful 4th quarter where they blew a 10 point lead.

 

And your 2nd paragraph just points-out how getting a deal done now makes more sense than waiting to get one done after the cap actually goes down.  You think they'll be in a better position next year? 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

Naw, GB gave up the moment they drafted a QB in the 1st.  And I saw Jimmy G miss a wide open Kittle several times in that fateful 4th quarter where they blew a 10 point lead.

 

And your 2nd paragraph just points-out how getting a deal done now makes more sense than waiting to get one done after the cap actually goes down.  You think they'll be in a better position next year? 

 

Maybe Shanahan should bench Jimmy G to bump Kittle's numbers back up?

 

LOL, makes more sense for Kittle, not for the team that has to pay him, obviously.  That's why I wrote the 2nd paragraph.  Everyone knows the cap will take a hit, so holding the 49ers for ransom now won't move them to break the bank this year when the budget is going down.  They wouldn't sign Sanders (after spending a 3rd and 4th on him for only 8 games) because of cap concerns.

 

They have lots of weapons now.  Deebo Samuel walked right in and put up 800.  The run game is solid.  Just drafted Aiyuk, who is a stud. Another TE--maybe a Knox type guy. Plus Trent Taylor and Jalen Hurd are coming off of IR.  Plus Bourne.  And the kid from Tenessee.  They have really loaded up.

 

Add all that up and I don't see Kittle with a lot of leverage in a holdout.  Shanahan and Lynch are certainly going to look forward to their stocked receiver room and think hard about busting the cap on a TE.

[Doc]

27 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Maybe Shanahan should bench Jimmy G to bump Kittle's numbers back up?

 

LOL, makes more sense for Kittle, not for the team that has to pay him, obviously.  That's why I wrote the 2nd paragraph.  Everyone knows the cap will take a hit, so holding the 49ers for ransom now won't move them to break the bank this year when the budget is going down.  They wouldn't sign Sanders (after spending a 3rd and 4th on him for only 8 games) because of cap concerns.

 

They have lots of weapons now.  Deebo Samuel walked right in and put up 800.  The run game is solid.  Just drafted Aiyuk, who is a stud. Another TE--maybe a Knox type guy. Plus Trent Taylor and Jalen Hurd are coming off of IR.  Plus Bourne.  And the kid from Tenessee.  They have really loaded up.

 

Add all that up and I don't see Kittle with a lot of leverage in a holdout.  Shanahan and Lynch are certainly going to look forward to their stocked receiver room and think hard about busting the cap on a TE.

 

Bench Jimmy G to get Kittle's numbers back up?  Naw.  Again 1,200 yards is an excellent season for a WR, never mind a TE.  To win a SB though...

 

Obviously the team will want to pay him as little as possible.  That's neither here nor there.  Kittle has sorely out-performed his rookie deal and he and his agent are well aware that the salary cap will go down for the 2021 season and want to strike while the iron is hot(test).  They realize that the 49'ers have little in the way of receiving options outside of a bunch of unproven guys so they actually have a lot of leverage.

[Alphadawg7]

Ok...I have a question to those in this thread.  Why do we have a 10 page thread on an NFC teams contract negotiants with their TE?  I dont ask that in a pompous way, but I dont want to read 10 pages of debate of the value of someone else's TE either.  So whats the reason?  Is there speculation that he is available...that Bills could be interested?  I mean I dont get the length of discussion of some random teams contract with a TE.  So is there more to this, or did this particular convo just run long for some other reason?

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

Bench Jimmy G to get Kittle's numbers back up?  Naw.  Again 1,200 yards is an excellent season for a WR, never mind a TE.  To win a SB though...

 

Obviously the team will want to pay him as little as possible.  That's neither here nor there.  Kittle has sorely out-performed his rookie deal and he and his agent are well aware that the salary cap will go down for the 2021 season and want to strike while the iron is hot(test).  They realize that the 49'ers have little in the way of receiving options outside of a bunch of unproven guys so they actually have a lot of leverage.

 

Doc, we all understand what his agent wants to do--it's not in debate, nor is the fact that a guy under his rookie contract is outplaying it.  That happens multiple times every single season.

 

I don't understand why a looming cap dive would make it more attractive for the 49ers to give this guy a massive boost over the current max.  Common sense is telling you this will make his agent's task infinitely harder and takes leverage away.  That team will be far less inclined to make that deal now.  They would be crazy to.

 

They would surely like to sign him.  But for that money---they will wait to see what happens with a full roster of receivers, and what the budget is after this season.  I bet you Shanahan is far more excited about his roster going into this year than he was last year.  

 

17 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Ok...I have a question to those in this thread.  Why do we have a 10 page thread on an NFC teams contract negotiants with their TE?  I dont ask that in a pompous way, but I dont want to read 10 pages of debate of the value of someone else's TE either.  So whats the reason?  Is there speculation that he is available...that Bills could be interested?  I mean I dont get the length of discussion of some random teams contract with a TE.  So is there more to this, or did this particular convo just run long for some other reason?

 

There were already 5 threads on Josh Allen's odds of being MVP, so.....

[Chicken Boo]

23 hours ago, NewEra said:

Of course he was.  He had Alex Smith, Andy reid and zero WRs to take targets away from him.  
 

kittle has the most receiving yards ever for a TE after 3 years.  He had Mullens and beathard throwing him the ball 2 years ago. Hoyer, beathard and jiimmy g(for 5 games) 3 years ago. 

 

he blocks as well as any TE not named Kittle.  
 

agree to disagree. I’ll take Kittle every day of the week

 

Yes, but his production hasn't dropped off even with the plethora of talent in KC currently.

 

Nothing else going on in the sports world.  I enjoy these debates.

[Nextmanup]

Every team in the league should be desperately trying to find a Kittle for their team.

 

There is enough athletic talent in this country to support it, I think.

 

Big, strong, tall guys who can run and catch.

 

It creates an immediate mismatch all over the field and was Brady's secret weapon for years with Gronk.

 

No reason to keep it a secret.

 

Kittle is worth a huge payment IMO, and he's in a key spot.

 

Would much rather pay him big money than a DL for example, even a sack specialist.

 

The TE has way more value.

 

 

 

 

[Doc]

42 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Doc, we all understand what his agent wants to do--it's not in debate, nor is the fact that a guy under his rookie contract is outplaying it.  That happens multiple times every single season.

 

I don't understand why a looming cap dive would make it more attractive for the 49ers to give this guy a massive boost over the current max.  Common sense is telling you this will make his agent's task infinitely harder and takes leverage away.  That team will be far less inclined to make that deal now.  They would be crazy to.

 

They would surely like to sign him.  But for that money---they will wait to see what happens with a full roster of receivers, and what the budget is after this season.  I bet you Shanahan is far more excited about his roster going into this year than he was last year. 

 

WEO, we all understand the team doesn't want to pay him-it's not in debate.  That happens multiple times every single season.

 

And they can use whatever reason they want (what other TEs got, future cap, harmonic convergence) but that matters not to Kittle and his agent.  So they either come to an agreement on a number that's acceptable to Kittle or he probably threatens to sit out.  If the team wants to make the SB again, they probably cave because that offense without him would be a disaster.

[Mr. WEO]

8 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

WEO, we all understand the team doesn't want to pay him-it's not in debate.  That happens multiple times every single season.

 

And they can use whatever reason they want (what other TEs got, future cap, harmonic convergence) but that matters not to Kittle and his agent.  So they either come to an agreement on a number that's acceptable to Kittle or he probably threatens to sit out.  If the team wants to make the SB again, they probably cave because that offense without him would be a disaster.

 

 

i'm confident they are not convinced that is true---a "disaster"? lol

 

If they don't resign him before this season starts, we will know their thinking for certain.

[Chicken Boo]

16 minutes ago, Doc said:

If the team wants to make the SB again, they probably cave because that offense without him would be a disaster.

 

That offense strolled through the playoffs and to the Super Bowl with Kittle on blocking duties, mostly.  

[Doc]

13 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

That offense strolled through the playoffs and to the Super Bowl with Kittle on blocking duties, mostly.  

 

Yeah.  Jimmy G had a total of 208 yards passing in both playoff games while the team ran for over 400 yards.  Might have been a smart idea to use Kittle more in the passing game in the SB.

[billsfan89]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Ok...I have a question to those in this thread.  Why do we have a 10 page thread on an NFC teams contract negotiants with their TE?  I dont ask that in a pompous way, but I dont want to read 10 pages of debate of the value of someone else's TE either.  So whats the reason?  Is there speculation that he is available...that Bills could be interested?  I mean I dont get the length of discussion of some random teams contract with a TE.  So is there more to this, or did this particular convo just run long for some other reason?

 

The TE market is a bit of an outlier unlike most positions which have had elite players test the market in the last 2-3 seasons, the elite players at the position have had contracts locked in before they were elite players (Ertz and Kelce signed deals after the 2015 season when they were up and coming players and not quite elite at the position) or they are still on rookie or lower end deals (Kittle and possibly Waller out of Vegas if he has another good season.) The last TE with two 1,000 yard seasons to negotiate a new contract was Jimmy Graham who did so in the 2015 off-season. 

 

So the market at TE is very deflated since there hasn't been an elite talent at the position to test the market. If Kittle puts in another good season he will be the first elite TE to test the market in a long time and it is going to massively alter the market at the position. 

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Yeah.  Jimmy G had a total of 208 yards passing in both playoff games while the team ran for over 400 yards.  Might have been a smart idea to use Kittle more in the passing game in the SB.

 

The 49ers had a double digit lead with just over 6 min left in the game, doc.  That D caved for 21 unanswered points. 

 

Kittle got 7 targets that game (about his season avg)--most in his "playoff career".  They rolled over Minny with his 5 targets.   In the NFCC game he had a single pass tossed his way---yet they still blew out the Packers.  A real "disaster" that offense without Kittle in the passing game, huh?

 

Maybe they threw to Kittle too much in the SB.....

 

 

 

 

[Doc]

19 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

The 49ers had a double digit lead with just over 6 min left in the game, doc.  That D caved for 21 unanswered points. 

 

Kittle got 7 targets that game (about his season avg)--most in his "playoff career".  They rolled over Minny with his 5 targets.   In the NFCC game he had a single pass tossed his way---yet they still blew out the Packers.  A real "disaster" that offense without Kittle in the passing game, huh?

 

Maybe they threw to Kittle too much in the SB.....

 

Maybe the 49'ers should dump Jimmy G and his bloated contract, let Kittle play-out his contract (and eventually walk) and just run the ball every play?  You seem to think that would work.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Doc

[Mr. WEO]

52 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Maybe the 49'ers should dump Jimmy G and his bloated contract, let Kittle play-out his contract (and eventually walk) and just run the ball every play?  You seem to think that would work.

 

lol...maybe!

 

But seriously, Their Offense was fine with the run first mentality.  But with all these receivers coming in, Shanahan is likely licking his chops at opening it up.   Doesn't hurt that Kittle and his agent can obviously see the flood of cheap young talent on the roster this season.  The reason they brought Sanders on is because of the hole at WR.  The reason they let him go after 8 games is because of his cost and the other guys are coming back.  If the 49ers were as worried as you are about a bunch of "unproven guys", the never would have let Sanders go--he only had a 2 year deal.

 

Kittle wasn't a significant factor in the playoffs--yet still they were rolling threw until the final 6.5 minutes of the final game.  More passes to Kittle wan't the answer, obviously.

[NewEra]

3 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Ok...I have a question to those in this thread.  Why do we have a 10 page thread on an NFC teams contract negotiants with their TE?  I dont ask that in a pompous way, but I dont want to read 10 pages of debate of the value of someone else's TE either.  So whats the reason?  Is there speculation that he is available...that Bills could be interested?  I mean I dont get the length of discussion of some random teams contract with a TE.  So is there more to this, or did this particular convo just run long for some other reason?

Lol.  I don’t understand this post.  
 

you should know by now that you don’t have to click on the link.  It’s a topic that has generated 10 pages.  If you don’t want to read it, don’t.  If you’re taking a dump and have nothing better to do, read and chime in

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Yes, but his production hasn't dropped off even with the plethora of talent in KC currently.

 

Nothing else going on in the sports world.  I enjoy these debates.

No one is saying Kelce isn’t great.  He’s the 2nd best TE in the league imo.  Some think he’s the best, I get it.  
 

He’s on the best offense in football with the best QBs, one of the best playcallers and great compliments all over the field.  He’s one of the best playmakers on the team.  Why would his production decline?  Just because there are more mouths to feed doesn’t mean each guy gets less production.  It means that the offense is I’ll have more success and more opportunities, meaning more touches for all the weapons.  It all evens out in the end imo

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

i'm confident they are not convinced that is true---a "disaster"? lol

 

If they don't resign him before this season starts, we will know their thinking for certain.

A disaster?  No.  Good enough to win the super bowl?  Or even make the super bowl?  I’d bet against it.  The window is open for them.  Lynch is trying to build loyalty.  Kittle is a great face of the franchise, even if he’s not the face.  He’s just awesome.  I want him in my locker room.  

[Alphadawg7]

23 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Lol.  I don’t understand this post.  
 

you should know by now that you don’t have to click on the link.  It’s a topic that has generated 10 pages.  If you don’t want to read it, don’t.  If you’re taking a dump and have nothing better to do, read and chime in

 

You took my post wrong.  Allen for Prescott is only 11 pages.  So it was unusual a post about another player in the NFC, no rival to Bills, no application to Bills in anyway, no controversy, went to 10+ pages.  So I was asking, did it just carry on for some other reason, or were the Bills somehow tied into this convo.  Like is there rumors Kittle is available and we could make a play.  

 

I didn't want to read 10 pages of contract talk if that was all it was, and was just simply asking if there was Bills connection to this topic for it to reach a longer length than it would typically do if no Bills connection or controversy attached.  

 

I was not mocking this thread at all, so sorry if it seemed that way.  Was just trying to find out if there was something I should dive into buried inside this thread that would interest me.

[NewEra]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

You took my post wrong.  Allen for Prescott is only 11 pages.  So it was unusual a post about another player in the NFC, no rival to Bills, no application to Bills in anyway, no controversy, went to 10+ pages.  So I was asking, did it just carry on for some other reason, or were the Bills somehow tied into this convo.  Like is there rumors Kittle is available and we could make a play.  

 

I didn't want to read 10 pages of contract talk if that was all it was, and was just simply asking if there was Bills connection to this topic for it to reach a longer length than it would typically do if no Bills connection or controversy attached.  

 

I was not mocking this thread at all, so sorry if it seemed that way.  Was just trying to find out if there was something I should dive into buried inside this thread that would interest me.

Ok. I hear ya.  
 

bad comparison though....Dak for Allen is just nonsense

[Alphadawg7]

8 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Ok. I hear ya.  
 

bad comparison though....Dak for Allen is just nonsense

 

Just meant, its at least Bills related and it only got to 11.  So was unusual to see a non controversial, non bills player, no bills rival have a thread get to 10 pages. Felt like a 3 page topic, so thought maybe there was some kind of speculation worth exploring that might have been the catalyst.  If it was just about Kittle and his contract, wasn't really something I was interested in combing 10 pages for was all.

[NewEra]

16 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Just meant, its at least Bills related and it only got to 11.  So was unusual to see a non controversial, non bills player, no bills rival have a thread get to 10 pages. Felt like a 3 page topic, so thought maybe there was some kind of speculation worth exploring that might have been the catalyst.  If it was just about Kittle and his contract, wasn't really something I was interested in combing 10 pages for was all.

I know.  I was just being sarcastic 

[Doc]

28 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

lol...maybe!

 

But seriously, Their Offense was fine with the run first mentality.  But with all these receivers coming in, Shanahan is likely licking his chops at opening it up.   Doesn't hurt that Kittle and his agent can obviously see the flood of cheap young talent on the roster this season.  The reason they brought Sanders on is because of the hole at WR.  The reason they let him go after 8 games is because of his cost and the other guys are coming back.  If the 49ers were as worried as you are about a bunch of "unproven guys", the never would have let Sanders go--he only had a 2 year deal.

 

Kittle wasn't a significant factor in the playoffs--yet still they were rolling threw until the final 6.5 minutes of the final game.  More passes to Kittle wan't the answer, obviously.

 

The 49'ers didn't have to throw much in the playoff games because they limited the Vikings to 10 points total, and the Packers to 7 points through 3 quarters while scoring 37, mostly thanks to the ground game.  No need to risk throwing the ball.  The SB was a different story.  Again I remember distinctly that on 2 separate drives during that fateful 6.5 minute stretch that Kittle was wide open for big gainers and JG didn't look his way.  Could very well have been the difference in the outcome. 

 

In any case, thinking they can run the ball and get back to the SB isn't a sound game plan.  Hence the reason they drafted a WR in the 1st round.  And after all, they did get 75 yards/game from Kittle during the regular season so what happened in the playoffs obviously doesn't tell the whole story.

 

What's more interesting is your complaints about the Bills not prioritizing the TE position...and then slagging a great TE like Kittle.  Which is it?

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

No one is saying Kelce isn’t great.  He’s the 2nd best TE in the league imo.  Some think he’s the best, I get it.  
 

He’s on the best offense in football with the best QBs, one of the best playcallers and great compliments all over the field.  He’s one of the best playmakers on the team.  Why would his production decline?  Just because there are more mouths to feed doesn’t mean each guy gets less production.  It means that the offense is I’ll have more success and more opportunities, meaning more touches for all the weapons.  It all evens out in the end imo

A disaster?  No.  Good enough to win the super bowl?  Or even make the super bowl?  I’d bet against it.  The window is open for them.  Lynch is trying to build loyalty.  Kittle is a great face of the franchise, even if he’s not the face.  He’s just awesome.  I want him in my locker room.  

 

 

I agree with this 100%. Imagine him in Buffalo?!  Instead we're all hoping the best TE on the team can catch more and drop less.

 

I just think that roster in SF is now geared to go heavy on the pass.  Tons of guys.  Kittle won't have the same utility for this team this yer---despite his budding greatness.