Mr. WEO Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, NewEra said: Yeah......because Kelce and Kittle are usually blocking on passing plays?. Mahomes’ targets are also more adept at getting open. kittle is trying to reset the TE market. Just because Graham’s didn’t 5 years ago doesn’t mean that Kittle can’t. Whether that happens or not is tbd. My bet is him getting around 15 mill a year, which is approx 50% more than the current highest paid TE. Sounds like resetting the market to me. Time will tell. Maybe he should...more. It will happen only of SF lets it. If there's no deal before the season, they probably are not planning on resetting that market. Edited May 31, 2020 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherlock Holmes Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 1 hour ago, NoSaint said: that’s simply not true. Toss Gilmore on him and he’s done. Tight end stats Evaporate when covered by a good corner - but those corners are dedicated to the WR1 who is much more game changing. As indicated by their pay scale and draft position. a good tight end is a great resource but you are terribly wrong if you think kitties is as impactful as the top wide receivers. LOL...if you want to see Gilmore roasted please put him on Kittle 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 36 minutes ago, Sherlock Holmes said: LOL...if you want to see Gilmore roasted please put him on Kittle lol nothing is as roasted as this take.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billl Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 12 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: lol nothing is as roasted as this take.... You think Gilmore can cover someone with 4 inches 60 pounds on him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 50 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Maybe he should...more. It will happen only of SF lets it. If there's no deal before the season, they probably are not planning on resetting that market. So you think that jimmy g was sacked more than Mahomes because their superstar TE wasn’t blocking enough? Or maybe that they would’ve won the SB if Kittle blocked more? Or that if he blocked more than he’d reset the market? in other words, Kittle blocking more would accomplish what? Being sacked less than Pat Mahomes isn’t exactly something teams put on their lists of goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 7 minutes ago, Billl said: You think Gilmore can cover someone with 4 inches 60 pounds on him? They won't be wrestling. Plenty WR's at 6'4" CB's face every week. 1 minute ago, NewEra said: So you think that jimmy g was sacked more than Mahomes because their superstar TE wasn’t blocking enough? Or maybe that they would’ve won the SB if Kittle blocked more? Or that if he blocked more than he’d reset the market? in other words, Kittle blocking more would accomplish what? Being sacked less than Pat Mahomes isn’t exactly something teams put on their lists of goals. Guy prides himself on being a blocker. He won't set the market with that. In fact, it will guarantee he won't be paid as a top WR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rc2catch Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 2 hours ago, NoSaint said: that’s simply not true. Toss Gilmore on him and he’s done. Tight end stats Evaporate when covered by a good corner - but those corners are dedicated to the WR1 who is much more game changing. As indicated by their pay scale and draft position. a good tight end is a great resource but you are terribly wrong if you think kitties is as impactful as the top wide receivers. I don’t agree. I don’t think Gilmore or Tre or anyone could cover Kelce/Kittle. They are just simply too strong and can easily box them out especially in the red zone. Tight ends would 100% be drafted higher but they can’t produce as fast as a receiver out of college. If I was building a team and could pick receiving options Kelce and Kittle would be in my top 10 plenty far ahead of a lot of #1 receivers. Kelce has the ability to dominate a game in multiple ways and just as a receiver he has the same ability to completely takeover a game like Hopkins or Thomas regardless of who defenses throw at him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 13 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: They won't be wrestling. Plenty WR's at 6'4" CB's face every week. Guy prides himself on being a blocker. He won't set the market with that. In fact, it will guarantee he won't be paid as a top WR. Do you think being an amazing blocker is a bad thing? Does it hurt his value? He will likely set the market. Right now it’s 10 mill a year for the highest paid. The Niners will likely franchise him next season with hopes it doesn’t upset him too much. That’s the smart economic route to take, but it could backfire. If he’s causing a ruckus, that’s when we find out if they really want to pay him or move on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, NewEra said: Do you think being an amazing blocker is a bad thing? Does it hurt his value? He will likely set the market. Right now it’s 10 mill a year for the highest paid. The Niners will likely franchise him next season with hopes it doesn’t upset him too much. That’s the smart economic route to take, but it could backfire. If he’s causing a ruckus, that’s when we find out if they really want to pay him or move on They'll franchise him but at around $10M he'll probably hold out when guys like Hooper and Henry, who haven't even broken 800 yards receiving in a season, are getting more than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 3 hours ago, NoSaint said: my argument was with someone saying TE was the second most impactful position behind qb. obviously WR is more impactful and there’s evidence of that from a variety of angles. that doesn’t mean a tight end doesn’t have impact. Obviously they do. A great receiving back or a slot receiver can effect the defense too... but WR1 is the premium pass catcher in the league. When Gronk was in his prime I would say that he was the most impactful receiver in the New England offense. And it wasn't necessarily predicated on his stats. I agree with you that usually the wideouts are more important receivers but there are exceptions to that rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Doc said: They'll franchise him but at around $10M he'll probably hold out when guys like Hooper and Henry, who haven't even broken 800 yards receiving in a season, are getting more than that. Hooper is making 10.5. Henry is getting the franchise amount (10.6). Franchised next season, Kittles wouldn't make less than either of them are getting now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherlock Holmes Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: lol nothing is as roasted as this take.... I wouldn't say that...? I would let out 5 minute long belly laughs as Kittle snatched the ball away from Gilmore as he is holding him with two arms for multiple TDs.... If it were SF and the Cheats in SB, Bosa would've retired Brady and Gilmore would've given up 4 TDs to Kittle while looking all around him for somebody else to blame. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, JohnC said: When Gronk was in his prime I would say that he was the most impactful receiver in the New England offense. And it wasn't necessarily predicated on his stats. I agree with you that usually the wideouts are more important receivers but there are exceptions to that rule. And he was never paid like a top WR. 1 minute ago, Sherlock Holmes said: I wouldn't say that...? I would let out 5 minute long belly laughs as Kittle snatched the ball away from Gilmore as he is holding him with two arms for multiple TDs.... If it were SF and the Cheats in SB, Bosa would've retired Brady and Gilmore would've given up 4 TDs to Kittle while looking all around him for somebody else to blame. Bosa et al couldn't retire Mahomes and Kelce. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: See below. Likely doesn't matter. Baltimore doesn't have a Kittle caliber TE. Theirs is a noun dominant game. No team will pay top dollar to be a decoy for another WR they are paying. You missed the point of my post. The ranking of a position and the commensurate pay scale can change. If a hybrid TE (mostly receiver) is a bigger factor in a team's offense than the wideouts then it shouldn't be surprising that the hybrid TE get paid more. Just because it is currently so doesn't mean that it won't be so. 4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: And he was never paid like a top WR. And neither was Tom Brady! The GOAT qb of the modern era of the NFL. New England is a unique situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, JohnC said: When Gronk was in his prime I would say that he was the most impactful receiver in the New England offense. And it wasn't necessarily predicated on his stats. I agree with you that usually the wideouts are more important receivers but there are exceptions to that rule. yes and they also drafted Brady in the 6th round. there are exceptions to any rule. When you have a generational talent at TE and bums at WR he can certainly be more impactful. As a standard around the league WRs are still the more valued position. gronk also was never paid or drafted as a top pass catcher in the league. Just a very good one. Kind of the point. Much like the other guy arguing he would put 2 in the top 10 pass catchers. Edited May 31, 2020 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 19 minutes ago, JohnC said: You missed the point of my post. The ranking of a position and the commensurate pay scale can change. If a hybrid TE (mostly receiver) is a bigger factor in a team's offense than the wideouts then it shouldn't be surprising that the hybrid TE get paid more. Just because it is currently so doesn't mean that it won't be so. And neither was Tom Brady! The GOAT qb of the modern era of the NFL. New England is a unique situation. No owner has paid a TE of any kind (your speciation as a "hybrid" has no meaning to the men writing the checks) like a top WR. Kittle will likely be the top paid TE, but even at 11 million per for average annual salary, he wouldn't crack the top 20 WR annuals for 2020. Unique situation? Gronk's 54 million, 6 year extension was the richest at the time for a TE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, NoSaint said: yes and they also drafted Brady in the 6th round. there are exceptions to any rule. When you have a generational talent at TE and bums at WR he can certainly be more impactful. As a standard around the league WRs are still the more valued position. gronk also was never paid or drafted as a top pass catcher in the league. Just a very good one. Kind of the point. Much like the other guy arguing he would put 2 in the top 10 pass catchers. I have said it upfront that there are exceptions to the rule. And without question the wide out is usually the most valuable receiver in an offense. But that doesn't rule out the possibility that a TE can be the most valuable receiver (regardless of stats) in certain outlier situations. I cited Gronk as an example of that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 Here’s some data from gronk in his prime to back up my previously claim of drop off when a corner is committed to the coverage. the catch rate should jump off the screen. I’m trying to track down some others as if I recall correctly jimmy Graham’s during his tag debate was even more dramatic. GRONK VS. SAFETIES/LINEBACKERS, 2016-17Targets: 115Receptions: 79Receiving yards: 1,338TD-INT: 9-0Passer rating: 133.9 GRONK VS. CORNERBACKS, 2016-17Targets: 24Receptions: 11Receiving yards: 192TD-INT: 1-1Passer rating: 70.1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: No owner has paid a TE of any kind (your speciation as a "hybrid" has no meaning to the men writing the checks) like a top WR. Kittle will likely be the top paid TE, but even at 11 million per for average annual salary, he wouldn't crack the top 20 WR annuals for 2020. Unique situation? Gronk's 54 million, 6 year extension was the richest at the time for a TE. Gronk is going to be a near unanimous selection to the HOF when he is eligible. Compared to what he got paid with the Pats he could have gotten more if he played for another team. And the same argument applies to Brady who is arguably the GOAT qb in the modern era. As I said before New England runs a different operation compared to other teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, JohnC said: I have said it upfront that there are exceptions to the rule. And without question the wide out is usually the most valuable receiver in an offense. But that doesn't rule out the possibility that a TE can be the most valuable receiver (regardless of stats) in certain outlier situations. I cited Gronk as an example of that point. you are talking about a team. I’m talking about a league. That’s all. I don’t think your point added much to the overall context though and is mostly a distraction from the core of the discussion. The best player on any unit can be just about any position depending on the scheme, coach, and talent they happen to have. There are still obvious and accepted league cornerstones. in gronks case, the lack of an elite WR may have been a pretty impactful issue (negatively) on that offense though. Look at what they did with randy moss for instance. Edited May 31, 2020 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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