Covid-19 discussion and humor thread [Was: CDC says don't touch your face to avoid Covid19...Vets to the rescue!

[Sundancer]

6 hours ago, K-9 said:

The politicians are the wrong people to be in charge, too. I don’t need another “face” to manage public relations, I need an actual pandemic response team with clear, pre-defined chains of command, strategies, tactics, and logistical apparatus spanning across all relevant agencies staffed by people who know their s**t and who are empowered to act without political constraint. 
 

Oh wait...

 

My point, met with Thor's Hammer earlier so I'll be careful to not get this deleted, is that we need someone Americans by and large trust on that team, to be its voice. Fauci is great but he's pure science. Gates is not, ie, he can balance more variables and is a trusted mind, and America believes in him. It doesn't matter because Fauci barely makes it to the mike, let alone another person who would speak their mind. But I say it again, if Gates is up there, the market pops up, Americans feel more confident, and that matters.

 

What also will matter is when we finally get a national response with a clear goal and path out of this. That is still 100% clear as mud. So right now, the federal government is failing to make clear any path forward. Does anyone believe at the end of the magic "15 days," this ends? Since the answer is "of course not," stop saying it. Give the real timeline: 3 weeks of hardcore lockdown organized by region. And after that, at the time when cases are spiking (I cannot imagine what the hospital situation in NYC will be in 3 weeks), what happens next? Hopefully massive massive testing and tracking combined with gradual reopening so we don't get more massive spikes but only pockets. And perhaps we will have enough basic equipment then (it's unfathomable to imagine what is going to happen with these mask shortages) with the more complicated things (ventilators) to follow in the production chain. The drug solutions ain't coming until a lot of time has passed. 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Sundancer

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 hours ago, Sundancer said:

I can see what you’re saying. I am not advocating a national shutdown but a national response that does not rely on regional leadership making decisions like keeping the Florida beaches open for tourists to mingle and take home their new virus. In the end, the effectiveness of any quarantine comes down to the community and individual being dedicated to it. Regions that take the lead ahead of the national response in reaction to cases are fine of course. 

 

I think it's worth noting here again that Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong - all very close to the original epicenter - all seem to have contained the epidemic through a coherent national response that did NOT require a lockdown or business closures except very localized situations.

We definitely need a national response.  We may need a national shutdown, too, because of too big variability in local and state responses.

 

13 hours ago, Sundancer said:

I hope we can have the discussion about an overreaction soon. That would be awesome. But I don’t know why the US would be spared what other countries are facing. You can see big city hospitals bracing for impact now and we are nowhere near a peak yet (Italy is overrun and also not yet peaked...we are behind them). 

 

Likewise.

21 minutes ago, Sundancer said:

 

My point, met with Thor's Hammer earlier so I'll be careful to not get this deleted, is that we need someone Americans by and large trust on that team, to be its voice. Fauci is great but he's pure science. Gates is not, ie, he can balance more variables and is a trusted mind, and America believes in him. It doesn't matter because Fauci barely makes it to the mike, let alone another person who would speak their mind. But I say it again, if Gates is up there, the market pops up, Americans feel more confident, and that matters.

 

What also will matter is when we finally get a national response with a clear goal and path out of this. That is still 100% clear as mud. So right now, the federal government is failing to make clear any path forward. Does anyone believe at the end of the magic "15 days," this ends? Since the answer is "of course not," stop saying it. Give the real timeline: 3 weeks of hardcore lockdown organized by region. And after that, at the time when cases are spiking (I cannot imagine what the hospital situation in NYC will be in 3 weeks), what happens next? Hopefully massive massive testing and tracking combined with gradual reopening so we don't get more massive spikes but only pockets. And perhaps we will have enough basic equipment then (it's unfathomable to imagine what is going to happen with these mask shortages) with the more complicated things (ventilators) to follow in the production chain. The drug solutions ain't coming until a lot of time has passed. 

 

I actually started on a good news- drug report in the other thread last night and it got accidentally deleted and I was tired and fed up so I went to bed.

Just a quick note here that drug solutions (at least good treatments if not cures) may be closer at hand.  There are 70 clinical trials underway in China alone.  Many of them are for existing, approved therapeutics so production could be ramped up pretty quickly.

 

I'm not going to argue the point of putting an epidemiologist in charge again; I've said your point and you've said yours so I think we agree to disagree here and let it drop.  It's not like either of us arguing the point would make it happen.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 hours ago, Greg S said:

 

 

Illinois further; actual lockdown

https://www.stltoday.com/lifestyles/health-med-fit/coronavirus/illinois-governor-orders-lockdown-requiring-residents-to-stay-home-starting/article_ef37772d-8de3-57f1-957e-9a6430f59456.html

 

Everyone is to stay home except for essential workers and essential trips (grocery store, medical). 

 

Just for John in Jax, Illinois residents are still allowed to walk their dogs.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I thought this was interesting:

 

https://time.com/5799964/coronavirus-face-mask-asia-us/

"Cheryl Man is usually the only one wearing a face mask on her New York City subway train. She notices this, but other people on the train notice, too. Usually she just gets odd stares from other commuters. (...)  “Why do they think it’s about me? It’s a civic duty,” she says. “If I have a mask on, and if—touch wood—I’m infected, I could cut the chain off where I am. That could save a lot of people.”

"That’s what health experts in Hong Kong, where Man was born and raised, say, and it’s advice she trusts. Nearly everyone on Hong Kong’s streets, trains and buses has been wearing a mask for weeks—since news emerged of (...)COVID-19."

"David Hui, a respiratory medicine expert at the Chinese University of Hong Kong who studied the 2002 to 2003 outbreak of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) extensively, says it’s “common sense” that wearing a mask would protect against infectious diseases like COVID-19.  “If you are standing in front of someone who is sick, the mask will give some protection,” Hui says. “The mask provides a barrier from respiratory droplets, which is predominantly how the virus spreads.”  He also says that the role of a face mask may be especially important in the epidemic due to the nature of the virus. Patients with COVID-19 often have mild or even no symptoms, and some researchers believe it can also be transmitted when patients are asymptomatic

"Yet, in the U.S., wearing a face mask when healthy has become discouraged to the point of becoming socially unacceptable. The U.S. government, in line with World Health Organization recommendations, says only those who are sick, or their caregivers, should wear masks."

A tweet from Surgeon General Jerome Adams sums up the argument: “Seriously people- STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can’t get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!”

 

 

Maybe we should urgently make more masks, so that Healthcare Workers have them and so that people on the street can wear them.

Maybe there's a relationship between wearing masks in Hong Kong and Taiwan and Japan, and the containment of the outbreak there.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

This is kind of cool.  Before and after photos

 

https://www.vox.com/2020/3/17/21184236/coronavirus-economy-photos-slider-statute-liberty

 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

[Sundancer]

5 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

What is that supposed to be?

 

The Hammer and dance article in the info thread is one I read yesterday morning. It is so grim, even after getting to the dance phase done right (after 3-7 weeks of big time quarantine in the hammer phase), that it’s tough to swallow. At the same time, I’d love for the admin to tell us what the coherent national strategy is so America could strengthen its resolve to get to the other side. 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Sundancer

[Hardhatharry]

13 minutes ago, Sundancer said:

What is that supposed to be?

 

The Hammer and dance article in the info thread is one I read yesterday morning. It is so grim, even after getting to the dance phase done right (after 3-7 weeks of big time quarantine in the hammer phase), that it’s tough to swallow. At the same time, I’d love for the admin to tell us what the coherent national strategy is so America could strengthen its resolve to get to the other side. 

 

Do you have to rely on your admin to tell you everything? How do people not see the strategy laid out in front of them?

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

 

...well that didn't take long....SMH....where's Geragos??..........

Purell manufacturer accused of 'misleading' customers in lawsuit

WHECTV
Created: March 21, 2020 07:44 AM

(WHEC/NBC) — The makers of Purell hand sanitizer are now facing a class-action lawsuit.

 

GOJO, the maker of Purell hand sanitizer, is facing two class-action lawsuits accusing it of "misleading claims" that it can prevent "99.9 percent of illness-causing germs." Purell's label states the product can kill "99.9 percent of illness-causing germs." The suit claims that it's misleading because it implies "sound scientific support when none exists."

Last month, a separate lawsuit was filed saying the manufacturer broke the public's trust with the repeated unproven marketing claims. In January the FDA warned the company about making such statements.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

37 minutes ago, Sundancer said:

What is that supposed to be?

 

The Hammer and dance article in the info thread is one I read yesterday morning. It is so grim, even after getting to the dance phase done right (after 3-7 weeks of big time quarantine in the hammer phase), that it’s tough to swallow. At the same time, I’d love for the admin to tell us what the coherent national strategy is so America could strengthen its resolve to get to the other side. 

Google xi jinping Winnie the Pooh.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

....so there IS a God after all.................

 

Yes, liquor stores are considered essential business and still open in New York state

 

Ryan Miller, Rochester Democrat and Chronicle Published 5:32 p.m. ET March 20, 2020 | Updated 6:40 p.m. ET March 20, 2020

 

A lot of adults think liquor stores are essential during a quarantine. New York state agrees. 

Gov. Andrew Cuomo's "New York state on Pause" executive order prohibits all businesses from having their employees report to work on-site during the COVID-19 outbreak unless the business is considered "essential." 

Cuomo announced the mandate Friday, as the state's confirmed coronavirus cases grew to more than 7,000. 

Employers in several categories such as health care, infrastructure and retail are exempt, including "all food and beverage stores." That includes liquor stores to the joy of many on social media.

Liquor stores, breweries and cideries can stay open and do not need to reduce their on-site workforce. All beverage manufacturing is permitted to operate during the state order as well. 

https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2020/03/20/new-york-coronavirus-liquor-stores-essential-business-stay-home-andrew-cuomo/2888442001/

[Sundancer]

58 minutes ago, Hardhatharry said:

Do you have to rely on your admin to tell you everything? How do people not see the strategy laid out in front of them?

You’re kind of snarky here but I’ll put it to you then. 
 

What is the plan through to the other side? 1 week. 2 weeks. 3 weeks. 8 weeks. 

[Hardhatharry]

9 minutes ago, Sundancer said:

You’re kind of snarky here but I’ll put it to you then. 
 

What is the plan through to the other side? 1 week. 2 weeks. 3 weeks. 8 weeks. 

You should go read the other thread it has all the information you need. Stop relying on your government so much and start to learn about the things that happen and make the choices you need to. It will stop you from being so afraid and also stop you sitting around waiting for your government to help and guide you through it.

Edited March 21, 2020 by Hardhatharry

[John in Jax]

2 hours ago, Sundancer said:

At the same time, I’d love for the admin to tell us what the coherent national strategy is so America could strengthen its resolve to get to the other side. 

What do you mean? Are you watching the daily press briefings they are doing? THEY HAVE THE BRIGHTEST MINDS in the country.....at the NIH, CDC, DHS, etc.....working on this DAY & NIGHT, 24/7. OBVIOUSLY, they don’t need to have the same “stay in your home” all over the country as they do in the “hot spots.” You do acknowledge the latter, don’t you?

[BillsFan4]

12 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I thought this was interesting:

 

https://time.com/5799964/coronavirus-face-mask-asia-us/

"Cheryl Man is usually the only one wearing a face mask on her New York City subway train. She notices this, but other people on the train notice, too. Usually she just gets odd stares from other commuters. (...)  “Why do they think it’s about me? It’s a civic duty,” she says. “If I have a mask on, and if—touch wood—I’m infected, I could cut the chain off where I am. That could save a lot of people.”

"That’s what health experts in Hong Kong, where Man was born and raised, say, and it’s advice she trusts. Nearly everyone on Hong Kong’s streets, trains and buses has been wearing a mask for weeks—since news emerged of (...)COVID-19."

"David Hui, a respiratory medicine expert at the Chinese University of Hong Kong who studied the 2002 to 2003 outbreak of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) extensively, says it’s “common sense” that wearing a mask would protect against infectious diseases like COVID-19.  “If you are standing in front of someone who is sick, the mask will give some protection,” Hui says. “The mask provides a barrier from respiratory droplets, which is predominantly how the virus spreads.”  He also says that the role of a face mask may be especially important in the epidemic due to the nature of the virus. Patients with COVID-19 often have mild or even no symptoms, and some researchers believe it can also be transmitted when patients are asymptomatic

"Yet, in the U.S., wearing a face mask when healthy has become discouraged to the point of becoming socially unacceptable. The U.S. government, in line with World Health Organization recommendations, says only those who are sick, or their caregivers, should wear masks."

A tweet from Surgeon General Jerome Adams sums up the argument: “Seriously people- STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can’t get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!”

 

 

Maybe we should urgently make more masks, so that Healthcare Workers have them and so that people on the street can wear them.

Maybe there's a relationship between wearing masks in Hong Kong and Taiwan and Japan, and the containment of the outbreak there.

Agree. Doctors and nurses are short on masks already. Production should have been ramped up many weeks ago. They issued dire warnings to us in February to drastically ramp up production. I believe it is now. A request was put in to ramp up production last week, so hopefully it’s happening quickly now. But those masks still haven’t made it into the hands of our first responders on the front lines.

 

 

 

Random thought on this:

 

I can remember during things like the SARS and MERS outbreaks, seeing photos and videos from crowded places in China (subways, markets, etc etc) and nearly everyone was wearing a mask. 

 

I remember thinking, “wow that’s wild! Glad we don’t have to do that here”. But now I wonder if that might be our new reality for a while. I wonder if you are going to slowly start seeing more and more people out in public places with masks on?

 

Edited March 21, 2020 by BillsFan4
Deleted attached photo

[Sundancer]

37 minutes ago, John in Jax said:

What do you mean? Are you watching the daily press briefings they are doing? THEY HAVE THE BRIGHTEST MINDS in the country.....at the NIH, CDC, DHS, etc.....working on this DAY & NIGHT, 24/7. OBVIOUSLY, they don’t need to have the same “stay in your home” all over the country as they do in the “hot spots.” You do acknowledge the latter, don’t you?

 

I do watch them. What's the plan? 15 days of distancing? Closure? Why was NY open while PA was closed? Florida spring breakers traveling down and then returning to wherever? What's the plan to get resources from where they may be unneeded now to where they are needed now? What is the plan for returning to operation of an economy?

 

I agree the minds are there in the room. But right now the federal government has not conveyed a plan of attack for this "war" on a national scale like it needs to be treated. If the government had conveyed the plan, you could tell me what it was and I wouldn't be asking. 

 

I'm not mad at you here. Just frustrated by the lack of clarity on what the current plan is (mostly from an economic perspective--I want to know what we are doing to settle this, then come out of it).

 

And yes, I understand that there need not be the same restrictions everywhere, but leaving it to Governors is not working. NYC and PA should have shut down 2 weeks ago. FL should have shut down in advance of Spring Break, which is like 100 concerts in a row of mixing then sending those people back home. Resource allocation needs to be centralized. If the Nebraska hospitals are about to get 100 ventilators and 1M masks, but have 20 cases of COVID-19, those resources should shift in part to a harder hit area. We need a federal plan for a "war," which I agree is how we should treat this. 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Sundancer

[Hardhatharry]

7 minutes ago, Sundancer said:

 

I do watch them. What's the plan? 15 days of distancing? Closure? Why was NY open while PA was closed? Florida spring breakers traveling down and then returning to wherever? What's the plan to get resources from where they may be unneeded now to where they are needed now? What is the plan for returning to operation of an economy?

 

I agree the minds are there in the room. But right now the federal government has not conveyed a plan of attack for this "war" on a national scale like it needs to be treated. If the government had conveyed the plan, you could tell me what it was and I wouldn't be asking. 

 

I'm not mad at you here. Just frustrated by the lack of clarity on what the current plan is (mostly from an economic perspective--I want to know what we are doing to settle this, then come out of it).

 

And yes, I understand that there need not be the same restrictions everywhere, but leaving it to Governors is not working. NYC and PA should have shut down 2 weeks ago. FL should have shut down in advance of Spring Break, which is like 100 concerts in a row of mixing then sending those people back home. 

You want someone to explain all of that for you? I don't even watch politics and yet I can forum my own options just based off of what you read from the people who know most about this. What are the people who know most about viruses and disease telling you to do? Listen to them, local government has its own decisions to make and it will show you who is not prepared. Learn from these other people's mistakes. 

 

In times like these you need to take control of yourself. Making the government babysit everyone just turns more people against each other. Just sucks humanity needs to be FORCED into everything, and it takes going through disaster and tragedy to learn.

[plenzmd1]

this is a very good article. Very good friend of my daughter is ranked 2nd in two swimming events right, and was over for dinner the night..and he is stressed to the max not being able to train. Senior in college too, so this would be his one shot to make an Olympics. But, just like their brethren FIFA and NCAA, making monet for their execs  is all that really matters for these people

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/its-time-for-the-ioc-to-postpone-the-2020-olympics-195643218.html

[BillsFan4]

34 minutes ago, Hardhatharry said:

You want someone to explain all of that for you? I don't even watch politics and yet I can forum my own options just based off of what you read from the people who know most about this. What are the people who know most about viruses and disease telling you to do? Listen to them, local government has its own decisions to make and it will show you who is not prepared. Learn from these other people's mistakes. 

 

In times like these you need to take control of yourself. Making the government babysit everyone just turns more people against each other. Just sucks humanity needs to be FORCED into everything, and it takes going through disaster and tragedy to learn.

It’s not  asking the government babysit. It’s having a coherent national plan and coordinating resources and responses for all of our states (some of this stuff needs to be done on a federal level) + putting out just the factual information and not constantly misleading the nation with inaccurate statements that have to be immediately corrected by the experts (it’s dangerous).

 

I don’t think it’s too much to ask not to be constantly misled and lied to by them. When has that ever happened before in a situation like this?

 

 

Edited March 21, 2020 by BillsFan4

[K-9]

The states are just not able to mobilize the resources necessary to respond on such massive scales. The federal government is the ONLY entity in existence that can do so. It’s IMPERATIVE that the federal agencies involved inform the public on these matters. 
 

That is NOT the government telling us what we should do, that’s the government telling us what they are doing. There’s a huge difference.

[Hardhatharry]

And now this turned into PPP

[K-9]

3 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

this is a very good article. Very good friend of my daughter is ranked 2nd in two swimming events right, and was over for dinner the night..and he is stressed to the max not being able to train. Senior in college too, so this would be his one shot to make an Olympics. But, just like their brethren FIFA and NCAA, making monet for their execs  is all that really matters for these people

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/its-time-for-the-ioc-to-postpone-the-2020-olympics-195643218.html

I feel for all these athletes who have put in the countless hours of training just for the chance to realize their Olympic dream only to see it dashed. Not unlike the 80 games for so many back then. 
 

[Sundancer]

40 minutes ago, Hardhatharry said:

You want someone to explain all of that for you? I don't even watch politics and yet I can forum my own options just based off of what you read from the people who know most about this. What are the people who know most about viruses and disease telling you to do? Listen to them, local government has its own decisions to make and it will show you who is not prepared. Learn from these other people's mistakes. 

 

In times like these you need to take control of yourself. Making the government babysit everyone just turns more people against each other. Just sucks humanity needs to be FORCED into everything, and it takes going through disaster and tragedy to learn.

 

I know what *I* am supposed to be doing. I have no patience to "learn from other people's mistakes" in this. That's a recipe for disaster. "Hey look Ohio is a mess. Thankfully we have this all under control in Indiana because we did something different. Phew." Do you see how absurd that is? This is why the "well areas" of the country right now need to be protected from their own bad governance. We have already had a failure of state governance in enough states that this is nearly an out of control contagion.  

 

What I'd like to know is what is being done, at a national level, to undertake the steps that Korea and Germany undertook to get this under control. I have not heard of a full scale testing and worse tracking/mapping plan that were/are vital in Korea. We have nothing like that being discussed at the national level. And that step is what happens at the end of the undefined shutdown that allows us to re-open with any sense of confidence in this not happening again.  

 

Someone said above "The best minds are on it." OK. What is the plan? If you tell me, it would be the first time I've heard it. This isn't a war with an enemy we need to hide the plan from. 

 

I am EXCITED for the moment when this national plan is unveiled and you should be too. And I do expect it soon. But for some reason we are in this phase of "let the states take care of things." That doesn't work because all the states share open borders with each other. This isn't Europe or Asia where healthy Utah can shut down all crossings from CA. 

 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Sundancer

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Hardhatharry said:

You want someone to explain all of that for you? I don't even watch politics and yet I can forum my own options just based off of what you read from the people who know most about this. What are the people who know most about viruses and disease telling you to do? Listen to them, local government has its own decisions to make and it will show you who is not prepared. Learn from these other people's mistakes. 

 

In times like these you need to take control of yourself. Making the government babysit everyone just turns more people against each other. Just sucks humanity needs to be FORCED into everything, and it takes going through disaster and tragedy to learn.

 

1 hour ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...yup I agree......I have decided to ignore EVERY non-governmental advisory as to what steps I can take to ensure my health and safety......in the meantime, I put my FEDERAL leash on and will wait for the Feds to lead me out of this because I'm too stupid to rely on anything else but Washington's own "all knowing Dr Phil"....perhaps Dr Ruth will help out as well....Feds MUST have a "one size fits all" for 300 million....good Lord I need a drink...SMH..........

 

Guys: the problem is that in this situation, we are not islands.  Every town, city, and state are connected.

 

There is a time when, for effective public health, individual free choice must be subordinate to the public good.  Uncontrolled epidemic disease where 20% of the cases require prolonged hospitalization, 5% require critical care, and 40% of those hospitalized are 20-54 years of age would be one of those times.
 

The point is that your individual choices and actions mean nothing if the guy next to you is asymptomatically ill and partying with 10 friends on the beach.  Now they are all exposed, and maybe travel to permanent homes in 5 different states plus a couple back to college.

How can your individual wise choices protect the hospitals and health care system from the effects of that in spreading a very contagious disease?

How can wise choices at the state and local level protect from the effects of that in spreading a very contagious disease?
 

If you're going to continue in this line, please address these questions clearly and specifically.

We have history written in blood "trying the experiment" to fight contagious disease with scattershot individual and local effort.  It. Does. Not. Work.

[Foxx]

1 hour ago, BillsFan4 said:

Im getting really sick of being told the facts are “political”. 

 

(Edit: sorry it’s been a rough night for me. Dealing with a lot right now)

hope all is as well as can be expected, BF4. stressful times, no doubt.

 

[BillsFan4]

7 minutes ago, Foxx said:

hope all is as well as can be expected, BF4. stressful times, no doubt.

 

Thank you. I appreciate it.

[Foxx]

a Bloomberg article.

 

it may be that Italy has contracted a particularly nasty strain of the virus so please, treat this as just one bit of information you entertain in your knowledge gathering. it certainly is still far to young in all of this to come to any sort of definitive conclusion(s) .

 

99% of Those Who Died From Virus Had Other Illness, Italy Says

More than 99% of Italy’s coronavirus fatalities were people who suffered from previous medical conditions, according to a study by the country’s national health authority.

 

After deaths from the virus reached more than 2,500, with a 150% increase in the past week, health authorities have been combing through data to provide clues to help combat the spread of the disease.

 

Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte’s government is evaluating whether to extend a nationwide lockdown beyond the beginning of April, daily La Stampa reported Wednesday. Italy has more than 31,500 confirmed cases of the illness. ...

 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Foxx

[K-9]

18 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

..probably a dumb senior moment question for those clamoring about an overreaction.....what the hell is the problem about erring on the side of caution?...nylons knotted because your precious daily routine has been altered?.....seriously?.....invincible?...non-conformist?....TDS carrier?........

I’ve been seeing a lot of strict constructionist arguments being tossed around, like that group in New Hampshire suing their governor for violating their right to free assembly, for instance. I don’t understand that argument as the SCOTUS has often explained that not all rights are absolute, like yelling fire in a crowded movie theater or like Scalia explained in his majority opinion on Heller. 
 

Bottom line is that common sense should inform these people at a time like this. 

[Sundancer]

25 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

..probably a dumb senior moment question for those clamoring about an overreaction.....what the hell is the problem about erring on the side of caution?...nylons knotted because your precious daily routine has been altered?.....seriously?.....invincible?...non-conformist?....TDS inflicted?........

For me: economy. I want the best balance of control of this without 20 years of economic fallout. 
 

8 weeks sitting at home is fine if On Week 9 most of my clients start paying their bills and everything is back to normal. That’s not what we are headed towards. My employees rely on me. My vendors rely on me. I rely on my vendors. This is not just a matter of being concerned because I can’t do my daily 60 mins at the gym and go to Starbucks for an overpriced coffee. 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Sundancer

[Hardhatharry]

6557 new cases and 793 new deaths in Italy last 24 hours. 

[BillsFan4]

This chart shows the differences in the way COVID-19 has been handled by Kentucky vs by Tennessee, and their current case numbers + testing. 

 

Quite a difference. Shows why quick action is so important.

 

Edited March 21, 2020 by BillsFan4

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, Hardhatharry said:

Do you have to rely on your admin to tell you everything? How do people not see the strategy laid out in front of them?

 

The strategy I see laid out in front of me is "hodgepodge of more and less effective actions, because of which consequences of the less effective actions will overtake and submerge the more effective ones"

 

You?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

..I am of the UTMOST confidence that most here will accept your ongoing and unheralded advice and guidance.....special thanks for your supreme efforts to keep us informed and sharing your expertise.....sadly and regardless, there will ALWAYS be a societal segment entitled "I'm invincible renegades" ....yet I believe with the respect you have earned here, the TBD family is in lockstep behind your guidance.....perhaps I can't but will do so anyway on behalf of ALL TBD'ers, "we ALL thank you for sharing your guidance and expertise"....

 

 

I am hopeful that some people will find the info helpful to protect themselves and their families and friends, and understand what is going to happen and what we need to do.

 

I would not bet a penny on the "lockstep" and I would bet money on a good handful think I'm a lunatic or an overofficious jerk....which does not disturb my slumbers.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Sundancer said:

For me: economy. I want the best balance of control of this without 20 years of economic fallout. 
 

8 weeks sitting at home is fine if On Week 9 most of my clients start paying their bills and everything is back to normal. That’s not what we are headed towards. My employees rely on me. My vendors rely on me. I rely on my vendors. This is not just a matter of being concerned because I can’t do my daily 60 mins at the gym and go to Starbucks for an overpriced coffee. 

 

My niece is an RN at a nursing home in a small town.  She is scared to death.

She still has a job.  She understands that the regulations the nursing home just enacted are to care for the residents.  But she has 5 kids.  She works hard, and budgets carefully, but they live paycheck to paycheck.   Any savings she accumulates are always taken by something: car repair, furnace fails, kid needs some medication insurance won't cover.

If one of the family becomes ill, she is prohibited from coming to work for 2 weeks. 

As she says "that would devastate us"

We CAN control this without killing people or devastating our economy (further), IF we take immediate measures starting now.  Ramp up mask production.  Start contact tracing and testing.  etc.
 

This is something that can be done.  There are people who know how - who have handled other epidemics and brought them under control.

But where is the National Plan?  And will it be led by the people who already know how to do this, or people who need to learn as they go?

 

1 hour ago, BillsFan4 said:

This chart shows the differences in the way COVID-19 has been handled by Kentucky vs by Tennessee, and their current case numbers + testing. 

 

Quite a difference. Shows why quick action is so important.

 

 

This is SO important.  But yet the problem we face is that Tenn. residents can freely go anywhere, and in areas bordering other states, they do.

 

That's the Essence of what makes this country Great - travel, commerce - and it's the essence of why we need a standard national plan - NOW

[Sundancer]

31 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

But where is the National Plan?  And will it be led by the people who already know how to do this, or people who need to learn as they go?

 

The fact that MA and Boston are not in lockdown (I didn’t know this until this morning) refutes all the people chiming in that states and community response is the way to go. What in the ever loving **** are they thinking?!?

Edited March 21, 2020 by Sundancer

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Sundancer said:

The fact that MA and Boston are not in lockdown (I didn’t know this) refutes all the people chiming in that states and community response is the way to go. I mean, what the ever loving **** are they thinking?!?

 

Right, plus Illinois measures are stricter than NYS - whaaaat?

 

I just posted an anecdote about the trickle-down failures of leaving this to state and local response.

[Royale with Cheese]

40 people just recently tested positive in a town 30 miles from me.  They all were at a church gathering.  This was before the shutdown.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, John in Jax said:

What do you mean? Are you watching the daily press briefings they are doing? THEY HAVE THE BRIGHTEST MINDS in the country.....at the NIH, CDC, DHS, etc.....working on this DAY & NIGHT, 24/7. OBVIOUSLY, they don’t need to have the same “stay in your home” all over the country as they do in the “hot spots.” You do acknowledge the latter, don’t you?

 

John,

 

How do we know whether or not we have "hot spots" all over the country?  We're not doing wide enough testing. 

Until recently W. Va had no positive tested cases.  That's not because they had no cases.  It's because they had no testing.  Now they have 8.  That's not because they have 8 cases; they have 8 positive tests.

 

Tompkins County NY where my daughter resides, has 11 positive cases now.  No big deal?  They have 288 tests pending - and until recently, very stringent criteria for who could even get a test.  Clearly they could have a problem that is ~30x bigger than they know, JUST in pending tests!

 

So it's not at all OBVIOUS to me.  Moreover, the places that have put in the stringent plans have "locked the door after the horse is gone".  Their hospitals are already being bombed.  Their tested case numbers are soaring, and epidemiologists estimate that the real case burden could be 10-20x higher or more.

 

Maybe other places should be...proactive and prevent this?

PS  It does not matter if the brightest minds in the country are working on this, if they aren't empowered to enact what they know needs to be done.

[John in Jax]

Of course, I’ll defer to the others in here who have more knowledge, but I guess I’m just trying to think positively, and hoping and praying that it doesn’t get as bad as some people think it may get. Personally, I was laid off yesterday, and earlier this week, my daughter who is in the U of Miami DPT (Dr of Physical Therapy) program came up to stay with us for a while. She starts online classes on Monday.

[RaoulDuke79]

2 minutes ago, John in Jax said:

Of course, I’ll defer to the others in here who have more knowledge, but I guess I’m just trying to think positively, and hoping and praying that it doesn’t get as bad as some people think it may get. Personally, I was laid off yesterday, and earlier this week, my daughter who is in the U of Miami DPT (Dr of Physical Therapy) program came up to stay with us for a while. She starts online classes on Monday.

There's nothing but misery in this thread. Even if people are attempting to take measures it's too late. I'm personally making the decision not to view it anymore. It  kills my mood every time I decide to click the link.