BringBackOrton Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 4 hours ago, Billl said: How do you completely disregard the most important part of my statement without missing a beat? It’s a lot easier to make great draft picks when you’re drafting second overall than when you’re in the twenties. SF essentially tanked in what was supposed to be the first year of their window. Shanahan didn’t get killed over it because he could point to the JG injury. As a result, they got to draft Bosa. That wasn’t a brilliant pick. It was a complete no brainer that most competent franchises never get to make because competent franchises don’t typically draft second overall. That’s the very definition of an outlier. Nobody was pointing to SF as a model franchise 9 months ago. People were pointing at the Rams. How did that work out? The Rams have had more playoff wins in one season than the Bills have since 1993. Imagine throwing stones from this glass house 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 11 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said: If drafting smart and making good FA acquisitions is an outlier, then I guess they are an outlier. All you are doing is lowering the bar for all other teams, including the Bills. You could be right regarding Bosa and Samuel. But why stop there; how about Kittle, Mostert, and Juszczyk? All big contributors on offense. How about a strong offensive line? Without that, no way Garappolo does anything. The point is they made a complete overhaul of Chip Kelly's disaster in a two year timeframe. It is possible to get to the SB within three years...outlier or not. This is what all the teams that are consistent playoff and Super Bowl contenders do with regularity. Think New England, Pittsburgh, KC, Baltimore, Minnesota (a team that's repeatedly made the playoffs without having a top QB), New Orleans, Green Bay, Seattle. They don't all do it the same way, but their FOs are significantly better at acquiring the right talent at the positions needed to win football games, including on the coaching and scouting/player evaluation staffs. 7 hours ago, Shaw66 said: What I expect is this: No big-name free agents, but a lot of guys who will compete for jobs - oline, dline, all over the field. Then more of the same in the draft. I expect a lot of fans will be disappointed, because there won't be names like Allen, Edmunds and Oliver added, just really good football players. What I expect will happen is that there will be intense competition in camp and preseason, and the Bills will go into the season with 5-7 new starters (some rookies, some free agents), and a few rookies will begin earning playing time as the season goes on. Oline, dline and linebacker battles will be fierce. The TEs will be challenged. The wideouts definitely will be challenged - only Brown and Beasley are safe. I don't care if the FAs or draft picks are "big names" but I expect them to be at least the same or better than the players they replace. This is especially true on the offense where the Bills are lacking NFL quality starters at a couple of skill positions and severely lacking in NFL caliber depth. Competition for starting RB would be a positive but there shouldn't be any competition with the current incumbents for backup RB. Gore and Yeldin are simply not good enough RBs for a team that's aiming to win playoff games. With the WRs, outside of Beasley and Brown, the same is true. Competition isn't going to make the rest of the Bills WR corps more talented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nextmanup Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 On 2/28/2020 at 9:45 PM, Tesla03 said: With Brady all but gone from NE, Dolphins still in a rebuild, and Jets being the Jets...the Bills have the best opportunity in 20+ years next season to win the division. Mcdermott has done amazing here, but the one thing he needs to do now is learn how to beat Bill B and New England and take over the division. Is the schedule tough next year? Yea, but the beauty of the NFL is that we basically share the same schedule as our division so there is no excuse there. Ideally next season's aim should be a division win +playoff win minimum. Obviously we can only go as far as Josh Allen takes us, if he continues his development and does not regress next year we really have a great chance of taking the division. BINGO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBennett Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 Id cross out Division Title and insert PLAYOFFS and then id agree... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 8 hours ago, SoTier said: I don't care if the FAs or draft picks are "big names" but I expect them to be at least the same or better than the players they replace. This is especially true on the offense where the Bills are lacking NFL quality starters at a couple of skill positions and severely lacking in NFL caliber depth. Competition for starting RB would be a positive but there shouldn't be any competition with the current incumbents for backup RB. Gore and Yeldin are simply not good enough RBs for a team that's aiming to win playoff games. With the WRs, outside of Beasley and Brown, the same is true. Competition isn't going to make the rest of the Bills WR corps more talented. I expect there will be a lot of replacements, and they all will be improvements. But I also thing you're too quick to judge and dismiss existing players. Players improve, especially in their first three or four years. Maybe not running backs that much, because it's more of an instinctive position than most others, but just about all the other position players can improve over their college and rookie seasons. McDermott's system is based on driving improvement and, as he's said, having players become the best version of themselves. You talk about players not becoming more talented, as though all that matters is their combine numbers. Offensive linemen, particularly, are undercoached in college - it takes them years in some cases to master the schemes they need in the pros. That has nothing to do with their quickness or agility; it has to do with what they understand about the game and whether they can learn the mental processing that's necessary to be effective. Defensive backs improve over seasons, as they study and learn more. Competition helps drive that learning and development. So, for example, I wouldn't be so quick to give up on the receiving corps behind the two starters. I wouldn't give up yet on Duke or McKenzie or Foster. They each bring some natural talents to the table that can be useful, if other aspects of their games improve. Duke was, in some ways, a rookie last season, so he could show some real improvement in year two. Tyler Lockett went four seasons in the league at 50 catches a year, then had 82 catches and 1000 yards last season. Do I expect them to emerge? No, probably not, because next to running back, receiver may be the most instinctive position, but I wouldn't count them out. None of us knows what Foster or Duke has been doing for the past several months to improve on particular aspects of their games. None of us knows how one or two years experience in the McDermott system will help them to make a jump in year three. And, for that matter, none of us knows how they will react when real competition appears on the scene. After all, and odd as it sounds, a guy like McKenzie was more or less a lock to make the team last season, because there was no credible back-up punt returner and no one who had shown the ability to run the jet sweep as he did. How will he respond this summer when there's a guy in camp threatening to take his roster spot from him? Maybe he folds and goes away, but maybe he rises. The whole point of having position competition is to bring out the best in players, and maybe competition actually will make McKenzie or Foster better. However it plays out, there will be better players on the roster come September, because several guys coming out of out the draft and free agency will outfight returning players for jobs. I expect five or six or seven new starters. I expect one or two new starters on the offensive line, and someone new at the third wideout position (and I'd count Duke as someone new, since he didn't play much at all last season). I expect a couple new faces on the defensive line rotation, certainly one new linebacker, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a new face or two in the defensive backfield rotation. There might be a safety pushing Poyer or Hyde for playing time, and there'll be a lot of competition for the number 2 corner and the nickel back. It's going to be intense, and the Bills will get better as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 On 2/28/2020 at 9:45 PM, Tesla03 said: With Brady all but gone from NE, Dolphins still in a rebuild, and Jets being the Jets...the Bills have the best opportunity in 20+ years next season to win the division. Mcdermott has done amazing here, but the one thing he needs to do now is learn how to beat Bill B and New England and take over the division. Is the schedule tough next year? Yea, but the beauty of the NFL is that we basically share the same schedule as our division so there is no excuse there. Ideally next season's aim should be a division win +playoff win minimum. Obviously we can only go as far as Josh Allen takes us, if he continues his development and does not regress next year we really have a great chance of taking the division. so if we are a wild card team and make it to the Superbowl...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 34 minutes ago, ScottLaw said: They'd be fools to go into next season counting on Foster/McKenzie/Duke to be real contributors on offense to this team..... I'm sorry. I must have missed it. Who said that they were counting on going into next season counting on Foster/McKenzie/Duke to be real contributors? They aren't "sounting on anything." McDermott's system is to go to camp and let them compete. The guys who emerge as the best players make the team. What I said is that the year-to-year improvement in players makes guys who weren't very useful last season useful in the next. Foster has speed, McKenzie has quickness and Foster has competitiveness, each a characteristic that, with improvement in other areas, might make them useful. Young players improve, and they improve with competition. Those realities are at the core of what McDermott does. What's foolish is to ignore that reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Shaw66 said: I'm sorry. I must have missed it. Who said that they were counting on going into next season counting on Foster/McKenzie/Duke to be real contributors? They aren't "sounting on anything." McDermott's system is to go to camp and let them compete. The guys who emerge as the best players make the team. What I said is that the year-to-year improvement in players makes guys who weren't very useful last season useful in the next. Foster has speed, McKenzie has quickness and Foster has competitiveness, each a characteristic that, with improvement in other areas, might make them useful. Young players improve, and they improve with competition. Those realities are at the core of what McDermott does. What's foolish is to ignore that reality. As a group, Foster, McKenzie and Williams simply aren't good enough to make up 3/5 of the WR corps of a team that's serious about winning playoff games. Foster and Williams were UDFAs while McKenzie was a fifth round pick in 2017. In general, where a player is drafted -- or not drafted -- indicates what pro talent evaluators think of his talent, which is his potential to be successful in the NFL. The UDFAs or 6th or 7th rounders who become stars are the exceptions rather than the rule. The Bills need a bonafide WR1 and another WR that would compete with Beasley and Brown, not more WRs to compete with fringe players like Foster/McKenzie/Williams who ought to be competing against each other to determine which one makes the team. Competition isn't going to make a player better unless he has talent that he hasn't maximized, which is probably unlikely for most young NFL players, especially players who have actually made an NFL team despite significant odds against their success. Competition is not going to make a WR bigger or faster since those physical traits can't be changed. Competition isn't going to make a WR a better route runner or have better footwork on the sidelines or improve his pass catching ability; good coaching and/or experience can improve those to varying degrees. What's foolish is thinking that a team can win playoff games with regularity with a roster containing a couple of stars, some decent pros, and mostly guys who weren't likely to make most other playoff teams. The Bills need to upgrade the bottom of their roster, especially on offense, and they should start with the WRs and RBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 32 minutes ago, SoTier said: As a group, Foster, McKenzie and Williams simply aren't good enough to make up 3/5 of the WR corps of a team that's serious about winning playoff games. Foster and Williams were UDFAs while McKenzie was a fifth round pick in 2017. In general, where a player is drafted -- or not drafted -- indicates what pro talent evaluators think of his talent, which is his potential to be successful in the NFL. The UDFAs or 6th or 7th rounders who become stars are the exceptions rather than the rule. The Bills need a bonafide WR1 and another WR that would compete with Beasley and Brown, not more WRs to compete with fringe players like Foster/McKenzie/Williams who ought to be competing against each other to determine which one makes the team. Competition isn't going to make a player better unless he has talent that he hasn't maximized, which is probably unlikely for most young NFL players, especially players who have actually made an NFL team despite significant odds against their success. Competition is not going to make a WR bigger or faster since those physical traits can't be changed. Competition isn't going to make a WR a better route runner or have better footwork on the sidelines or improve his pass catching ability; good coaching and/or experience can improve those to varying degrees. What's foolish is thinking that a team can win playoff games with regularity with a roster containing a couple of stars, some decent pros, and mostly guys who weren't likely to make most other playoff teams. The Bills need to upgrade the bottom of their roster, especially on offense, and they should start with the WRs and RBs. I don't disagree that the Bills need to better play out of the bottom of the roster. No question at all. They need better play out of several starting positions. Where I think you're wrong, and where McDermott clearly thinks you're wrong, is that the player you see by the end of his rookie or even second year is the player you'll see after four years. Yes, some things, like size and speed, can't change, but most players in the NFL need to learn a lot before they're effective. Look at Ed Oliver. Supremely talented. He didn't become effective until late in his rookie season, and he's a top 10 pick. There's a lot to learn in the NFL. Plenty of guys who start in the NFL didn't even make a roster coming out of college - they spend a year or two on practice squads, learning and developing. A lot of things go into that learning and development, and one of the things that causes that development is competition. So, I think it's foolish to assume that Foster/McKenzie/Williams have no future. I agreed completely that the 2019 versions of those guys are not good enough to fill out a really competitive roster, but if they are like a lot of players, they are still learning and developing as NFL players. The question isn't whether the 2019 version is going to make the roster; the question is whether the 2020 version will make it. There are guys around the league who are contributing wideouts who didn't do much their first couple of years. Curtis Samuel at Carolina. Russell Gage in Atlanta. Alex Erickson, Cincinnati. They aren't guys going to the Pro BOwl, but back up receivers never do. But those guys each were in the league for a few years before they caught 50 passes last season. We all tend to think that what we saw in a player last season is what we're going to get next season. It isn't true in all cases. You can respond that in your opinion, these guys aren't going to get any better, and you're entitled to your opinion. But at least in the case of Williams and Foster, these guys have some NFL-caliber skills, and I think it's foolish to assume that they can't contribute more in 2020 than in 2019. That doesn't mean that my plan is to go into training camp with those guys as the favorites for the 3-4-5 receiver spot on the roster - I want someone who projects to be better, and McBeane do too. What it means is that I'm prepared to be pleasantly surprised if one of those three emerge as a better contributor in 2020 than 2019. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 tougher schedule on paper making the playoffs would be good for me would be happier with some playoffs wins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjt328 Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 Calling the season a "failure" is a bit harsh. Considering the number of teams who have broken out and then gone backwards the next season (most recently the Jaguars, Bears), I think Bills fans should expect an improved team overall. We need to see a better Josh Allen, and offense that can consistently score more points than 2019, and a defense that remains steady. Now does that result in winning the division? Maybe. Maybe not. The general assumption is that New England is going backwards, while both New York and Miami are not very good. But what if those assumptions are incorrect? What if the Bills win 12-13 games, and somehow that isn't enough to win the AFC East? I think it's a mistake to draw a line in the sand like this. Wait and see what happens, then judge whether our front office/coaching staff/players are moving in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 Well I just booked a hotel for the week of the Super Bowl in Tampa so I'm ready. Actually booked it down towards Sarasota. Pickings are already very slim. Actually I've been planning to try and attend next years game ever since it was announced as relatively close. Want to experience the SB week atmosphere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 On 2/29/2020 at 3:48 PM, CommonCents said: Everyone talking like the Bills should win the division and be a SB contender. Want a taste of reality? Go look at their SB odds. If not making/winning a SB this year is the bar for McD and Beane you guys are nuts. There is plenty of room for a successful season that doesn’t include a SB appearance. Their odds are 35/1, that’s behind the Falcons, Browns and Steelers. Teams that didn’t even make the playoffs. Odds should not be not used. Many of those betting on Falcons, Browns and Steelers maybe Bills fans still being negative nancies. On 3/1/2020 at 5:02 PM, Happy Gilmore said: I'm fine with that; not looking for big names, just good players. What I am hoping to see is guys like Star and Ford compete for their jobs and playing time, not just given a spot because McD "believes in them" or that he "is their biggest defender." Guys like Murphy should get cut because they're just not good enough, rather than being kept around because they "have that DNA." I am guessing that Bills will use their own judgement on who is "good enough" and will not necessarily agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 9 hours ago, Limeaid said: I am guessing that Bills will use their own judgement on who is "good enough" and will not necessarily agree with you. No, I'm used to getting a call on all personnel matters. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said: No, I'm used to getting a call on all personnel matters. ? I am sure the Bengals appreciate your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPP Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 Agree with OP.......Its there for the taking......If we dont win....let the heads start to roll......FIRE EVERYBODY!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 Keeping Josh healthy and improving every week is the goal Pouncing on a very soft division and AFC would be nice dominating everything in sight is a pipedream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Boo Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 No point in starting a new thread. With Brady now gone, what say you now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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