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Star Lotulelei takes a pay cut

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9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

When the schedule got tough the Bills played like a "wildcard contender".

 

They had their chance to be more than that but they rode the easiest schedule the team has seen in 40 years to a 5th seed.

 

And were once again SWEPT by the division champion Patriots.

 

McDermott is 0-6 versus Belichick...........and some of those losses over that time were when the Pats were playing their worst football of the season...........so until you start winning some games against the division leader you aren't really a division contender...........and once you get there you gotta' start winning some meaningful games against other division winners and top seeds or you aren't a SB contender. 

 

As Bill Parcells said after turning the 1-15 Dolphins into a division winner the next season.........the climb from bad to decent is a lot easier than the next level up.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_income_trap

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11 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I disagree with your first paragraph, though I think you're right on with the rest, but he really isn't overpaid. He was paid what he was worth to McDermott. He isn't just a run-stopper, it's more complex than that, as I'm sure you know. He's a space eater, and there aren't that many of those guys to go around, so the good ones get paid well, as there are two or three significantly above Star in the top ten. It's a really difficult job that few are able to physically handle. Not every defense needs one, but the ones that do need them badly.

 

Space eater may not be a "premium position," but neither is $10 mill a year a premium salary. Star is tied for 148th highest paid in the league, in terms of average salary, and 129th highest in terms of guarantee. Calling that a premium salary would be ridiculous. The bottom line is simply that this is a position that McDermott needs filled in his defense and needs filled at a pretty high level. He knew Star could fill it at that level, having coached him in Carolina. And if McDermott has showed one thing, it's that he knows how to put together a really good defense with consistency. He needed Star to do that. 

 

As you point out, this is a good deal for both sides, a small pay cut for some guarantees the Bills are willing to live with because they want him here.

 

Saying he is 148th highest paid in the league is highly misleading. When he signed his deal in 2018 he was the 10th highest paid DT in the league and even in 2019 was still the 13th highest paid at his position. I think looking at his standing within his position is the best way to look at things. Star has a function in the system however he doesn't rush the passer and Star is not elite at being a space eater. Don't get me wrong he is good at that role but I don't think he is a Snacks Harrison type space eater. 

 

I don't think he comes even close to being top 20 DT in the league, thus him being paid in or close to the top 10 at his position makes him overpaid. However being overpaid doesn't mean he doesn't have value to the defense. I think this pay cut brings him closer to his true value and I am fine with him at his current salary and he fills a good role effectively. 

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1 minute ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Saying he is 148th highest paid in the league is highly misleading. When he signed his deal in 2018 he was the 10th highest paid DT in the league and even in 2019 was still the 13th highest paid at his position. I think looking at his standing within his position is the best way to look at things. Star has a function in the system however he doesn't rush the passer and Star is not elite at being a space eater. Don't get me wrong he is good at that role but I don't think he is a Snacks Harrison type space eater. 

 

I don't think he comes even close to being top 20 DT in the league, thus him being paid in or close to the top 10 at his position makes him overpaid. However being overpaid doesn't mean he doesn't have value to the defense. I think this pay cut brings him closer to his true value and I am fine with him at his current salary and he fills a good role effectively. 

 

 

@Thurman#1 is making massive excuses here......there is a CHASM between Star Lotulelei and the best space eaters........he is not even good at the job.

 

Snax is a NT playing head up on the OL in front of him and still routinely makes 70+ tackles per season.............he literally keeps his LB's clean...........and not every team thinks even a guy like Snax is worth the money he gets.

 

Ideally the DT1T in McDefense can make plays in the backfield as well............like Star did as a rookie.    It's not a NT position where the guy just has to hold up blocks for the big MLB to come in and get clean shots on RB's...........a DT1T should be able to tackle a RB.     Harrison Phillips tackles RB's so the Bills at least have that when he returns.

 

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34 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

@Thurman#1 is making massive excuses here......there is a CHASM between Star Lotulelei and the best space eaters........he is not even good at the job.

 

Snax is a NT playing head up on the OL in front of him and still routinely makes 70+ tackles per season.............he literally keeps his LB's clean...........and not every team thinks even a guy like Snax is worth the money he gets.

 

Ideally the DT1T in McDefense can make plays in the backfield as well............like Star did as a rookie.    It's not a NT position where the guy just has to hold up blocks for the big MLB to come in and get clean shots on RB's...........a DT1T should be able to tackle a RB.     Harrison Phillips tackles RB's so the Bills at least have that when he returns.

 

His Harrison Phillips available?

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3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

If fans cite some statistic, but it's not particularly relevant or meaningful, does that make it substantive?

 

I don't get the point about "being a .500 team after 3 full seasons of rebuilding".  I mean, technically, we're not...we're just over 0.500 (0.520 to be exact)

The 49'ers on the other hand, have yet to reach 0.500 in 3 years under Shanahan.... they're 0.479 (to be exact)

 

What point are you trying to illustrate with this 0.500 team thing?

 

 

Would you argue economics using recidivism rates?  Or the success of a corporation with unemployment?

 

Neither would you debate the W-L record over a 3 year span for a team when they just played in the SB.  SF showed tremendous improvement.  Buffalo won 1 more game in '19 than they did in '17.  Which team is trending up and which one appears to be plateauing in their rebuild?  

 

I see this as a willful conflation of the topic at hand and, I also realize has strayed far from the original topic.  

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4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The highlighted is a total fabrication.

 

I hadn't mentioned Harris since he re-signed with the Jets.........the Bills didn't have the option of signing him........he signed BEFORE UFA Gerry........he was NOT available.

 

I'll help you out..........the transaction I think you are talking about was the Bills not trading for Brandon Marshall.     I was all in on trading for him and hated the Percy Harvin signing.

 

 

 

Of course you hadn't mentioned after he re-signed with the Jets.  Maybe a weather-wane is more correct?  And then this twist.

 

If you don't want to hit the links, here are the quotes:

 

Quote

 

May 2016

(Ragland is )Not as talented as former Alabama ILB and current Cowboy Rolando McClain.

 

So basically no way he will ever hold a candle to Ray Lewis.

 

Rex is hoping for another David Harris. Also doubtful but a better comp.

 

Should have just passed on trading for an $8M RB and paid David Harris the extra $1M per to leave the Jets and follow him to Buffalo.

 

That was the formula that worked in NY with Bart Scott following him from the Ravens. Preston Brown and Bradhams struggles communicating defensive adjustments played a huge part in sinking last season.

 

--------

 

October 2016

 

As for Harris........I wasn't a proponent of signing him in FA.........my point was that they blamed the defensive issues on communication and if Harris was the key to not blowing what should have been a playoff season in 2015.....then they should have paid him ahead of warty stars like Harvin, Hammy McCoy or Charles Clay.

 

Horse......then cart.

 

I never thought Harris was actually needed..........if it wasn't obvious then it is much clearer now that they simply did a sh*t job of preparing the D in the 8 months leading up to the 2015 season.........but Preston Brown was scapegoated for it and Harris WAS available so they don't really have a leg to stand on IMO as far as that excuse is concerned.

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

In the past 20 years the Peyton Manning Colts are the ONLY organization that has rose to any sustained success from bottoming out............the easiest way to greatness is from a start at .500 type level.  

 

Bills fans have often lamented mediocrity as a reason for not being able to take the next step but that's always been BS.

 

The Bills are in a perfect position to take the next step...........but contrary to the retro-active narrative they actually were there under Marrone and Ryan as well...................you gotta' make the right moves to take the next step but it's there for the taking.

San Fran picked ahead of last year. Feel like they bottomed out and got good value for it. 

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8 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

San Fran picked ahead of last year. Feel like they bottomed out and got good value for it. 

 

 

Jacksonville also tanked for 5 years.......and then had a 4th quarter lead in the AFC Championship game in New England.

 

But then there were the next 2 seasons.

 

Like I said.......since Indy in 1998 nobody has tanked and gone from there to SUSTAINED success.

 

Patriots, Steelers, Seahawks, Packers, Ravens........these teams have been the most consistent contenders of the first two decades of this century and have won 12 of the first 20 Super Bowls.........and they never tanked.    

 

 

   

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31 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Of course you hadn't mentioned after he re-signed with the Jets.  Maybe a weather-wane is more correct?  And then this twist.

 

If you don't want to hit the links, here are the quotes:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So how about that take on Reggie Ragland?    

 

Was I right in mocking your notion that he was the next Ray Lewis?:lol:

 

Did you find the post where you swear I was "banging the table loudly for David Harris to be signed" as you claimed?

 

In hindsight it doesn't really sound like I was that adamant........does it?

 

Funny how you mis-remember things ol' timer.

 

 

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5 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

@Thurman#1 is making massive excuses here......there is a CHASM between Star Lotulelei and the best space eaters........he is not even good at the job.

 

Snax is a NT playing head up on the OL in front of him and still routinely makes 70+ tackles per season.............he literally keeps his LB's clean...........and not every team thinks even a guy like Snax is worth the money he gets.

 

Ideally the DT1T in McDefense can make plays in the backfield as well............like Star did as a rookie.    It's not a NT position where the guy just has to hold up blocks for the big MLB to come in and get clean shots on RB's...........a DT1T should be able to tackle a RB.     Harrison Phillips tackles RB's so the Bills at least have that when he returns.

 

You're giving your opinion and so is thurman. You not agreeing doesn't equate to him giving excuses. You think there is a huge gap from Star to the " best" out there doing what he does. Cool. Remember, it just your opinion. The excuses line is crap. He has an opinion that opposes yours. It's ok. I don't know it all, thurman doesn't know it all and neither do you. Self righteous attitudes here suck. Get over yourself.

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1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

So how about that take on Reggie Ragland?    

 

Was I right in mocking your notion that he was the next Ray Lewis?:lol:

 

Did you find the post where you swear I was "banging the table loudly for David Harris to be signed" as you claimed?

 

In hindsight it doesn't really sound like I was that adamant........does it?

 

Funny how you mis-remember things ol' timer.

 

 

 

Those are the first threads that popped up.  There were more, but you and the board will have to take my word for it because I'm done with homework for the day.

 

Note how you immediately deflect the topic to Ragland, when the issue was about Harris.

 

The threads also prove the point that while you may be right in many cases, you always twist the narrative after the fact to always appear correct no matter what position you initially took.

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32 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Those are the first threads that popped up.  There were more, but you and the board will have to take my word for it because I'm done with homework for the day.

 

Note how you immediately deflect the topic to Ragland, when the issue was about Harris.

 

The threads also prove the point that while you may be right in many cases, you always twist the narrative after the fact to always appear correct no matter what position you initially took.

 

 

You initiated a complaint with me over something that didn't happen.   

 

I was not adamant about the Bills signing David Harris.

 

You did the same thing before over MIKE GILLISLEE..........who I wanted the Bills to put a higher tender on..........BIG DEAL......they didn't do it and the Bills RB's ypc dropped over a yard and a half!.......not doing something and then performing poorly is NOT a sign that a good decision was made.

 

These complaints you have are incredibly small, just petty..........the subject matter is insignificant even in the context of it being a pastime.

 

You should be embarrassed to have brought up something that you recalled incorrectly to start with............it makes you look senile.

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2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

So how about that take on Reggie Ragland?    

 

Was I right in mocking your notion that he was the next Ray Lewis?:lol:

 

Did you find the post where you swear I was "banging the table loudly for David Harris to be signed" as you claimed?

 

In hindsight it doesn't really sound like I was that adamant........does it?

 

Funny how you mis-remember things ol' timer.

 

 

Reggie Ragland almost got me banned 😝

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8 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

its also slightly deceptive as well..... I just saw an article on ESPN weeks ago running down the average age of the year end STARTERS for each team and, if I remember correctly, buffalo had the 5th youngest group of starters by the years end.

 

 

Yeah don't find that article..........it's not going to make the "not like those Rams" narrators happy if the Rams starting lineup was younger than the Bills(which seems likely as they were one of the younger rosters in the league and swapped out numerous 30+ year old starters for rookies and Jalen Ramsey etc.).

 

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12 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

You initiated a complaint with me over something that didn't happen.   

 

I was not adamant about the Bills signing David Harris.

 

You did the same thing before over MIKE GILLISLEE..........who I wanted the Bills to put a higher tender on..........BIG DEAL......they didn't do it and the Bills RB's ypc dropped over a yard and a half!.......not doing something and then performing poorly is NOT a sign that a good decision was made.

 

These complaints you have are incredibly small, just petty..........the subject matter is insignificant even in the context of it being a pastime.

 

You should be embarrassed to have brought up something that you recalled incorrectly to start with............it makes you look senile.

 

There's definitely pettiness in these exchanges.

 

BTW, who'd you rather still have "Touchdown" Mike or the draft pick that Bills got for him?   How did Mike do in an offense geared for mildly talented RBs to do well?

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1 hour ago, GG said:

 

There's definitely pettiness in these exchanges.

 

BTW, who'd you rather still have "Touchdown" Mike or the draft pick that Bills got for him?   How did Mike do in an offense geared for mildly talented RBs to do well?

 

Oh I am glad they got 3 players out of that draft.

 

But when you get a late pick in trade and you hit on it........while missing on prior picks.......it's not a sign of calculated drafting genius.........the Bills literally had their greatest draft blunder ever in that draft(Mahomes) and they whiffed on Zay Jones when Curtis Samuel, Juju and Cooper Kupp were the next 3 WR selected.:doh:   

 

As for how Gillislee did.........he was bad but so were the Bills RB's(in a Shanahan style offense geared to inflate RB production.......uh....well......previously).

 

Both MG and McCoy inished under 4 ypc.......less than league average.........after McCoy had 5.4 and Gillislee a league leading 5.6 in 2016.

 

Gillislee in NE had 5 TD's and 25 first downs as a short yardage back.   One of the TD's was a dagger against Buffalo in McDermott-loss-to-Belichick version 2.0.

 

Mike Tolbert had 1 TD and 9 first downs and 2 fumbles in just 66 carries........and drew the ire of Bills fans for his ineffectiveness despite such limited use.......so yeah Gillislee was still better than the alternative.    

 

Ultimately McDermott came in and took an offense that had been highly productive..........the 2015-2016 Bills offense was their best 2 year stretch of production since 1990-1991...........and turned it into garbage with a terrible OC hire and some bad decisions at WR and a wafer thin RB corps.

 

They still haven't recovered offensively 3 years later.

 

The Gillislee decision didn't massively explode in their face like.......say....... Robert Woods turning into a 1200 yard WR or Stephon Gilmore becoming All-Pro.

 

But trying to parse it off amidst a litany of other more glaring mistakes is just weird............it wasn't a smart decision to not tender the guy a $2.5M offer when he had just lead the league in ypc and short yardage conversion.  

 

For perspective they signed reserve OL Ryan Groy $2.5M for that season and then two months later unnecessarily extended Eric Wood's contract which lead to a whopping $10.4M dead cap hit in 2018.   

 

Just brutal decision making.

 

Gillislee was just one of many bizarre choices that offseason.

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40 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Oh I am glad they got 3 players out of that draft.

 

But when you get a late pick in trade and you hit on it........while missing on prior picks.......it's not a sign of calculated drafting genius.........the Bills literally had their greatest draft blunder ever in that draft(Mahomes) and they whiffed on Zay Jones when Curtis Samuel, Juju and Cooper Kupp were the next 3 WR selected.:doh:   

 

As for how Gillislee did.........he was bad but so were the Bills RB's(in a Shanahan style offense geared to inflate RB production.......uh....well......previously).

 

Both MG and McCoy inished under 4 ypc.......less than league average.........after McCoy had 5.4 and Gillislee a league leading 5.6 in 2016.

 

Gillislee in NE had 5 TD's and 25 first downs as a short yardage back.   One of the TD's was a dagger against Buffalo in McDermott-loss-to-Belichick version 2.0.

 

Mike Tolbert had 1 TD and 9 first downs and 2 fumbles in just 66 carries........and drew the ire of Bills fans for his ineffectiveness despite such limited use.......so yeah Gillislee was still better than the alternative.    

 

Ultimately McDermott came in and took an offense that had been highly productive..........the 2015-2016 Bills offense was their best 2 year stretch of production since 1990-1991...........and turned it into garbage with a terrible OC hire and some bad decisions at WR and a wafer thin RB corps.

 

They still haven't recovered offensively 3 years later.

 

The Gillislee decision didn't massively explode in their face like.......say....... Robert Woods turning into a 1200 yard WR or Stephon Gilmore becoming All-Pro.

 

But trying to parse it off amidst a litany of other more glaring mistakes is just weird............it wasn't a smart decision to not tender the guy a $2.5M offer when he had just lead the league in ypc and short yardage conversion.  

 

For perspective they signed reserve OL Ryan Groy $2.5M for that season and then two months later unnecessarily extended Eric Wood's contract which lead to a whopping $10.4M dead cap hit in 2018.   

 

Just brutal decision making.

 

Gillislee was just one of many bizarre choices that offseason.


We should “ Gillislee” a guy like Breida or Ekeler.

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21 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

Would you argue economics using recidivism rates?  Or the success of a corporation with unemployment?

 

Neither would you debate the W-L record over a 3 year span for a team when they just played in the SB.  SF showed tremendous improvement.  Buffalo won 1 more game in '19 than they did in '17.  Which team is trending up and which one appears to be plateauing in their rebuild?  

 

I see this as a willful conflation of the topic at hand and, I also realize has strayed far from the original topic.  

 

"Willful conflation" by accurately quoting and accurately responding to something you said, Nice touch.

 

I'll give you one more chance.  You said "I really enjoy the back and forth with fans who cite no statistics or any evidence to back up their opinion.  All emotion, no substance.  

(....) Unfortunately, emotions don't win prizes and neither does being a .500 team after 3 full seasons of rebuilding. "  I asked you, what point were you trying to make with your 0.500 team over 3 years thing (presumably, to differentiate yourself from "fans who cite no statistics or evidence to back up your opinion, all emotion no substance)?

I'll ask again, because when challenged on it with the example of a team that is under 0.500 for 3 years but has clearly showed tremendous improvement, you scurried away from it in a hurry.  Yes, I agree, SF is a team on the rise.  We are both trending up, but with 2 data points we would say our trajectory is flatter.

 

But then why bring up the 0.500 over 3 years if it doesn't mean anything, because a team that is <0.500 is better in your viewpoint?  Seems like sophistry.
 

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58 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

The Gillislee decision didn't massively explode in their face like.......say....... Robert Woods turning into a 1200 yard WR or Stephon Gilmore becoming All-Pro.

 

But trying to parse it off amidst a litany of other more glaring mistakes is just weird............it wasn't a smart decision to not tender the guy a $2.5M offer when he had just lead the league in ypc and short yardage conversion.  

 

For perspective they signed reserve OL Ryan Groy $2.5M for that season and then two months later unnecessarily extended Eric Wood's contract which lead to a whopping $10.4M dead cap hit in 2018.   

 

Just brutal decision making.

 

Gillislee was just one of many bizarre choices that offseason.

 

Did Gillislee live up to his contract in an offense that puts RBs in the best possible position?

 

Speaking of changed narratives and pettiness - did anything extraordinary happen to Eric Wood which led to a whopping $10.4M dead cap hit in 2018?  Asking for a few friends who aren't Bills fans.

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10 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Did Gillislee live up to his contract in an offense that puts RBs in the best possible position?

 

Speaking of changed narratives and pettiness - did anything extraordinary happen to Eric Wood which led to a whopping $10.4M dead cap hit in 2018?  Asking for a few friends who aren't Bills fans.

 

 

The Patriots offense has finished 12th, 20th and 25th in ypa the last 3 seasons..........its not some production inflating RB offense like Roman/Lynn or maybe Dallas with their great OL were in that 2015-2016 time.   1st round stud Sony Michel averaged 3.7 ypa for them last year.

 

Nothing extraordinary happened to Eric Wood..........he had a troubling physical going into the offseason for what would have been his age 32 season and was advised to call it quits.............it was totally unnecessary for them to extend him in the summer of 2017..........it wasn't near the top of anyone's to-do list.   They did that and added $2M in incentives to McCoy's contract in an attempt to buy their support for "the process".    

 

That ended up being $12.5M in wasted cap space.

 

But like guaranteeing Star his 2020 contract it all seems okeedokee if you make strong assumptions about health and production that you shouldn't with an old and/or declining player.

 

 

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49 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The Patriots offense has finished 12th, 20th and 25th in ypa the last 3 seasons..........its not some production inflating RB offense like Roman/Lynn or maybe Dallas with their great OL were in that 2015-2016 time.   1st round stud Sony Michel averaged 3.7 ypa for them last year.

 

So basically you admit that Gillislee benefitted from a specific scheme in 2016, which ceased to exist in 2017, but you still insist that his numbers would justify a $5 million contract?  Mkay

 

49 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Nothing extraordinary happened to Eric Wood..........he had a troubling physical going into the offseason for what would have been his age 32 season and was advised to call it quits.............it was totally unnecessary for them to extend him in the summer of 2017..........it wasn't near the top of anyone's to-do list.   They did that and added $2M in incentives to McCoy's contract in an attempt to buy their support for "the process".    

 

Make sure you are not in the same zip code if I ever need a medical diagnosis.   Having multiple doctors telling him that he won't be cleared to play football again is more than a "troubling physical."   I'm guessing it's something that the front office had zero inkling when they inked the 2-year extension.   That "troubling physical" completely blew up their OL for the following season, because it's unlikely that Richie would have melted down if Wood was still on the team.   

 

But why would you ever acknowledge the full story when it contradicts your revisionist history?

 

 

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$6M AAV for Star is not bad. He certainly is worth a spot on the roster at that salary. I don’t think we’ve seen his ceiling yet. It’s all about his motivation to be great and whether or not McDermott can light a fire underneath him. All the Star haters should have nothing to complain about, his contract is feasible. 

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Once again, Sadol’’ has hijacked and ruined a thread. 🙄

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4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Nothing extraordinary happened to Eric Wood..........he had a troubling physical going into the offseason for what would have been his age 32 season and was advised to call it quits.............it was totally unnecessary for them to extend him in the summer of 2017..........it wasn't near the top of anyone's to-do list.  

 

Beane did it - therefore it was clearly near the top of someone's to-do list.  "Troubling physical" is an odd way to describe "informed he could no longer be cleared to play football; second opinion confirmed diagnosis." 

 

Currently of the 16 top-paid centers in the NFL (by total value or AAV), 5 are 31 or older.   One is 33 and played in a Superbowl at age 31; one is 35 and played in a Superbowl at age 32 (think I did the birthday math right, doesn't change point).  That holds through the top-contract 32 centers - 10 of them are 30 or older.   

 

So if the intended implication is that age 31 is old to offer a center a good contract extension,  apparently a lot of GMs around the league think it's reasonable to lock up an older center who is regarded as still a very good player.

 

 

3 hours ago, GG said:

 it's unlikely that Richie would have melted down if Wood was still on the team.  

 

I have to rate this "uncertain".  I believe (though I can't find the link now) Ritchie admitted that during the 2017 season, he was doing drugs and coming to meetings drunk or high; he had let up on his fitness and was playing out-of-condition.  Wood had a ringside seat and apparently this is the basis for some expressions of concern he made that spring.  I think part of it is that Juan Castillo's blocking scheme didn't suit 'Cog as well as Kromer, and that Castillo was apparently (again, from an RI interview, but can't find link) a stickler for using his preferred blocking techniques vs. what the vets were most comfortable with.

 

[Edit: I was writing this whilst the thread was being locked by another mod.  No intent to cut others off from response.  Open to continuing polite and mannerly discussion in PM or in another thread]

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