Should season ticket holders protest?

[K-9]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

and the REASON they are doing it is because you cannot block at the restraining line UNTIL ball fielded. That is why EVERY returner does it to let EVERYONE know he has no intention of bringing the ball out before the collisions at the restraining line. 
 

this is an artifact of those new restraining line rules. 

I see it every week. Even seen our own returner do it. 

Right. 
 

Like I said, the return man did one of two things right in signaling no return. I bet he will never touch the ball again after doing so. 

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

Right. 
 

Like I said, the return man did one of two things right in signaling no return. I bet he will never touch the ball again after doing so. 

and then when someone recovers it fans will expect it is a TD like is would have been in the past. But no longer is as it is Not a live ball at that point 

Edited January 7, 2020 by MAJBobby

[K-9]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Would love to see tape, cause I haven't

 

It just seems like there's a simple set of rules in place that govern exactly the protocol to follow...and it wasn't. I mean, that's the whole reason the rules exist- so you don't have to worry about intent.

Again, I agree. And I would look for the rule to be further clarified that once the safe signal is given, the play is dead. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, K-9 said:

Again, I agree. And I would look for the rule to be further clarified that once the safe signal is given, the play is dead. 

Kneeling is not so onerous. The airplane arms safe signal hasn't made its way into the rulebook yet. Specific to this play, taking a knee (or other qualifying body part) or less commonly signaling fair catch would be the acceptable (and only) ways to signal no return. 

[Plano]

I sent Goodell a scathing email. If we win next year, don't say I didn't do anything. 

 

 

[Rocbillsfan1]

1 hour ago, CheshireCT said:

 

At first I accepted the overturning myself, but having watched a discussion on a sports show from former players, they all agreed that the rules should be followed strictly and gave some good examples - such as, what about victory formation? Is it ok if the QB doesn’t take a knee? What about the fake spike play for example? What if the Texans player was faking giving himself up in the end zone and then runs it back for a touchdown? He has to put his knee down, period.

 

Any person has the power to make an impact when they believe in something.

 

The question is how much do you care about this to invest yourself in it? Is it worth spending countless hours and days fighting this? For most people, I would say the answer would be no, there are things more important for them to fight for. Therefore it would be difficult to get a mass crowd to follow you in protest.

 

But hey, you should go with your own feeling!!!

Hah yea I mean I care but would love if someone else took the reigns. I thought there may be a chance that just posting the idea might inspire someone to take the initiative. 

1 hour ago, row_33 said:

 

they got something to whine about for the rest of their lives, they are quite thrilled to do so... 

 

 

I think the whining would end if someone could just post clear evidence instead of just saying well it happens every week in every game. Ok well just post some evidence and we can all forget it.  

[K-9]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Kneeling is not so onerous. The airplane arms safe signal hasn't made its way into the rulebook yet. Specific to this play, taking a knee (or other qualifying body part) or less commonly signaling fair catch would be the acceptable (and only) ways to signal no return. 

And yet it’s been accepted in practice, if not specifically defined in the rule book,  by refs league wide. Indeed, I’ve seen numerous instances where the ref blew the whistle the moment the ball landed after the returner gave the safe signal in the endzone. 

[Rocbillsfan1]

2 hours ago, Warcodered said:

Guys they're not going to ***** reverse this, the game is over we lost on to 2020.

Yea not looking for a victory more or less looking for acknowledgment that the nfl swooped in when they shouldn’t have and changed the outcome of a game just for ratings. This isn’t even really about the bills. 

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, K-9 said:

And yet it’s been accepted in practice, if not specifically defined in the rule book,  by refs league wide. Indeed, I’ve seen numerous instances where the ref blew the whistle the moment the ball landed after the returner gave the safe signal in the endzone. 

Yes I agree I've seen that when the returner lets the ball hit the ground, but I have never seen the guy catch it and toss it back to the ref w/out kneeling first.

[Rocbillsfan1]

2 hours ago, Bangarang said:

We blew a 16 point lead. Get over it. 

There’s plenty to be disappointed at by the team. This thread isn’t about that thought I made it clear. This was about the nfl stepping in and arbitrarily changing rules in order to prevent a blowout and casual people tuning to a different channel. 

2 hours ago, K-9 said:

So, common sense has no place in rules interpretation? Can’t disagree more. The returner gave himself up and that was obvious, regardless of the technicality involved.

 

NFL refs get so much wrong during the course of a season and it’s by far the worst officiated sport in the world, but every once in a while they get it right. 

I agree they got it right then it was overturned by the league in NY.

[billsfan89]

2 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

all turnovers and scores are reviewed. Jesus it was the right call he was clearly giving himself up and happens just like that EVERY WEEK 

 

It is sort of the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law type thing. Yes by the letter of the law it should have been a TD for Buffalo but in the spirt of what the player did it was a clear signal for him giving himself up and not returning the ball. As a fan I think it is BS but if I were a neutral observer I honestly can't fault the league for overturning the call. 

[Rocbillsfan1]

1 hour ago, class_of_2012 said:

 

This was not a scoring play. The call on the field, after the officials conferred, was no TD. Unless it is called a score on the field, it can't be reviewed.

maybe McDermott should have challenged then? 

[K-9]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Yes I agree I've seen that when the returner lets the ball hit the ground, but I have never seen the guy catch it and toss it back to the ref w/out kneeling first.

No doubt it was bizarre and I give the ref credit for calling the TD in the first place as other refs may not have. But I think they got it right in the end. 
 

Sorry if I’m not as outraged as some others, but it was one of those one in a million occurrences that deserved the scrutiny it received by the group of officials who discussed it. 

8 minutes ago, Rocbillsfan1 said:

I agree they got it right then it was overturned by the league in NY.

Good luck with the lawsuit. This guy is available:

 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

No doubt it was bizarre and I give the ref credit for calling the TD in the first place as other refs may not have. But I think they got it right in the end. 
 

Sorry if I’m not as outraged as some others, but it was one of those one in a million occurrences that deserved the scrutiny it received by the group of officials who discussed it. 

I am less outraged than incredulous tbh. I thought scoring plays (and turnovers for that matter) required video replay confirmation. Certainly overturning a called TD requires video replay. The process that immediately followed the play was unique to my years of watching pro football.

[K-9]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

I am less outraged than incredulous tbh. I thought scoring plays (and turnovers for that matter) required video replay confirmation. Certainly overturning a called TD requires video replay. The process that immediately followed the play was unique to my years of watching pro football.

I agree. 

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

I am less outraged than incredulous tbh. I thought scoring plays (and turnovers for that matter) required video replay confirmation. Certainly overturning a called TD requires video replay. The process that immediately followed the play was unique to my years of watching pro football.

now what if they reviewed it and overturned it would you be Ok with the call then?

[Codyny13]

It’s a weird situation. They went against the rule book, so I guess it should be a TD. I’m sure it would probably never happened again had they enforced it, and although they’re cheap points...that’s not our fault, the dude made a mental error. That being said, the games over, nothing is going to change.

[GoBills808]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

now what if they reviewed it and overturned it would you be Ok with the call then?

Probably wouldn't have felt better about the call cause I think I have it right, but at least I would have felt better about the process because it would have involved the normal procedure and not the men in black coming in from the cold dispensing judgement.

[Rocbillsfan1]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

I see the butt hurt brigade is out in full force today.
 

Here’s a clue for them: no game in the history of the NFL has ever been won or lost on one play. Not. One. Now that may be too big a concept for the third graders who watch the games and get all passed off when calls go against them, but it’s true none the less. 

Spoken like a tough guy. I’ll include an example for the close minded people. I play on a pool team that qualified for the all cities tournament which is a March madness style tournament that you have to earn the right to qualify for. winner gets $8000 and trip to Vegas to compete in nationals after 2 full days we were in the championship game and needed 1 more win to close out the match. The opposing player beat our player in that game by making the 8ball, the cue ball was rolling down the table and he picked it up while it was still rolling.  I’ve never seen anyone do that before and by rules it’s a table scratch and a automatic loss. That was it and we won the game and went to Vegas. You can feel bad for people doing questionable things when the stakes are high and you aren’t thinking straight but rules are rules and all I’m hearing from certain trolls is get over it or it happens all the time with 0 proof that it does. And all the facts point that it shouldn’t have been overturned. Maybe by protesting season tickets it may make the pegulas step in and demand changes from the NFL. Again tough to say what it would look like but I think everyone would be in agreement that removing goodell might be a great start. 

[MAJBobby]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Probably wouldn't have felt better about the call cause I think I have it right, but at least I would have felt better about the process because it would have involved the normal procedure and not the men in black coming in from the cold dispensing judgement.

so Head Officials and their staff don’t converse during games to get the call right?  Oooo yeah they do. 

[Rocbillsfan1]

9 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Good luck with the lawsuit. This guy is available:

No one is aging anything about a lawsuit I even mentioned it was funny someone brought up lawsuit. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

so Head Officials and their staff don’t converse during games to get the call right?  Oooo yeah they do. 

They didn't get the call right. He knee never hit the ground.

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

They didn't get the call right. He knee never hit the ground.

According to you. So when I add that to a cup of coffee I have a cup of coffee and my take that they did get it right 

[apuszczalowski]

10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I am less outraged than incredulous tbh. I thought scoring plays (and turnovers for that matter) required video replay confirmation. Certainly overturning a called TD requires video replay. The process that immediately followed the play was unique to my years of watching pro football.

Apparently the guys in the black jackets were added by the league for the playoffs to help the refs.....

 

 

[GoBills808]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

According to you. So when I add that to a cup of coffee I have a cup of coffee and my take that they did get it right 

Just for argument's sake...I just think it's a good discussion. Once you catch a kickoff, you have the option to return it or down it in the endzone. Downing the ball requires a knee (or other body part) on the ground, or a fair catch signal. Those are the only acceptable ways to down a caught kickoff. The guy didn't do either. Instead he gave airplane arms, took a couple steps forward and tossed the ball toward the ref. 

[apuszczalowski]

14 minutes ago, K-9 said:

 

Good luck with the lawsuit. This guy is available:

 

Nope, IIRC he isn't available unless you have a Ouiji Board.......

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Just for argument's sake...I just think it's a good discussion. Once you catch a kickoff, you have the option to return it or down it in the endzone. Downing the ball requires a knee (or other body part) on the ground, or a fair catch signal. Those are the only acceptable ways to down a caught kickoff. The guy didn't do either. Instead he gave airplane arms, took a couple steps forward and tossed the ball toward the ref. 

and yet that isn’t what has been happening all year with the safe signal when the rules changed to not make it a live ball of hits in endzone and with the restrictive lines this became standard practice. 
 

I wish they had a more common sense approach to ALL their rules like they did here 

Edited January 7, 2020 by MAJBobby

[PromoTheRobot]

[Braedenstearns]

My questions is would have it worked the other way?

 

say he does his fist bump thing (or whatever he did to say “fair catch”) and tricked everyone and then took of running for a TD. Would it be called a TD because he never took a knee? Or would it have been called back because of him making no attempt to run...? I honestly think it wouldn’t have been called back if he took off running after pausing a moment

[GoBills808]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

and yet that isn’t what has been happening all year with the safe signal when the rules changed to not make it a live ball of hits in endzone and with the restrictive lines this became standard practice. 

If he hadn't caught it I agree. If he let's it bounce in endzone it's deadball on the spot. But once he catches it he has to down it himself because it's live and he's a runner at that point. And safe signal isn't recognized as of now by the league as a way of giving yourself up.

[Cotton Fitzsimmons]

1 hour ago, Jauronimo said:

It does.  And common sense suggests abandoning the rule book and the events that transpired on the field in favor of ruling on intent is dangerous precedent.  

 

In order to "give himself up" the returner has to let the ball land in the endzone, signal fair catch, or take a knee.  He did not satisfy any of these criteria.  I don't think 3 rules is that onerous but some disagree. 

 

The officials shrank in the moment and did not have the balls to stick with the correct call.  Whether the rule is good or not is a separate discussion.

Jauronimo, my good friend, you make sn excellent point here. The issue is, when we’ve seen this gesture (both arms out) the returner is signaling to his blockers and he lets the ball land. The problem is, he then fielded the ball and didn’t down it. There was no whistle and the ball was live. You can see the official was also confused and looked at him as if to say “are you downing it or bringing it out?” 
 

The issue comes in, if the shoe were on the other foot. Had the return team trotted off the field and this joker takes off and returns it for a TD, does anyone think that would’ve been taken off the board?
 

I thought the panel with John Fox/Trey Wingo was particularly insightful on this. They all made the point, if you’re in victory formation, everyone may know your intent, but you still have to execute the snap and take a knee. 
 

And there’s a lot of precedent for weird kick returner/live ball fiascos. YE OLE can never remember one of these blunders being reversed due to “intent”

 

 

 

[MAJBobby]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

If he hadn't caught it I agree. If he let's it bounce in endzone it's deadball on the spot. But once he catches it he has to down it himself because it's live and he's a runner at that point. And safe signal isn't recognized as of now by the league as a way of giving yourself up.

they don’t even know what a catch is. Bottom line they should look at that play and say OK good use of Common Sense. Now let’s go through our way to complicated Rule Book and apply common sense to all the rules. 

[Maybe Someday]

1 hour ago, MAJBobby said:

it tells His blockers and Refs he is not bringing the Ball out. 

 

I know it tells his blockers but is it actually in the rule book the same way the fair catch signal is? If not it will be.

 

The NFL wrote/worded so many rules specifically to remove judgement calls from the refs. Was tough to hear common sense officiating when it should be black and white. 

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Braedenstearns said:

My questions is would have it worked the other way?

 

say he does his fist bump thing (or whatever he did to say “fair catch”) and tricked everyone and then took of running for a TD. Would it be called a TD because he never took a knee? Or would it have been called back because of him making no attempt to run...? I honestly think it wouldn’t have been called back if he took off running after pausing a moment

Greg Olsen thinks so

[Meatloaf63]

1 hour ago, MAJBobby said:

show me in the rule book they clearly got it wrong. Make sure it addresses giving yourself up. 
 

You want to complain about Refs here are better examples to do it. 
 

Fords Block

Hit to Josh’s head in OT

Delay of game no call

Holding no call on 3rd and 18 

Since you’re too lazy to do it yourself and your acting like an expert on something you don’t know anything about, I did your home work for you. “E” is the relevant line and every expert has pointed to this as why the ruling was wrong. Why do you think the official didn’t blow his whistle and backed away from the ball? The call on the field was the correct call. 
 

Section 2 Dead Ball
Article 1: Dead Ball Declared. An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended:
(a) when a runner is contacted by a defensive player and touches the ground with any part of his body other than his hands or feet. The ball is dead the instant the runner touches the ground. A runner touching the ground with his hands or feet while in the grasp of an opponent may continue to advance; or
(b) when a runner is held or otherwise restrained so that his forward progress ends; or
(c) when a quarterback immediately drops to his knee (or simulates dropping to his knee) behind the line of scrimmage; or
(d) when a runner declares himself down by sliding feet first on the ground. The ball is dead the instant the runner touches the ground with anything other than his hands or his feet; or
Note: Defenders are required to treat a sliding runner as they would a runner who is down by contact.
(1) A defender must pull up when a runner begins a feet-first slide. This does not mean that all contact by a defender is illegal. If a defender has already committed himself, and the contact is unavoidable, it is not a foul unless the defender commits some other act, such as helmet-to-helmet contact or by drivinghisforearmorshoulderintotheheadorneck areaoftherunner.
(2) A runner who desires to take advantage of this protection is responsible for starting his slide before contact by a defensive player is imminent; if he does not, and waits until the last moment to begin his slide, he puts himself in jeopardy of being contacted.
(e) when a runner is out of bounds, or declares himself down by falling to the ground, or kneeling, and making no effort to advance; or
(f) when an opponent takes a ball that is in the possession of a runner who is on the ground; or
Note: An opponent may take or grab a ball (hand to hand) in possession of a runner who is on his feet or is airborne.
(g) when a forward pass (legal or illegal) is incomplete (see 8-1-4); or
(h) when any legal or illegal kick touches the receivers’ goal posts or crossbar, unless it scores a field goal (see 9-4-2); or
(i) when a loose ball comes to rest anywhere in the field of play, and no player attempts to recover it; the official covering the play should pause momentarily before signaling that the ball is dead. Any legal (or illegal) kick is awarded to the receivers, and any other ball is awarded to the team last in possession. When awarded to a team behind a goal line, the ball is placed on the one-yard line.
(j) when any legal or illegal kick is caught or recovered by the kickers, except a scrimmage kick that is kicked from behind the line and is recovered behind the line (not a Try kick). See 9-3-2-Item3 for exception; or
(k) when the defense gains possession during a Try, or it is obvious a Try-kick will not score; or
(l) when a touchdown, touchback, safety, field goal, or Try has been made; or
(m) when any receiver catches or recovers the ball after a fair catch signal (valid or invalid) has been made, provided the ball has not been touched by an opponent, before or after it strikes the ground; or
(n) when an official sounds his whistle while the ball is still in play, the ball becomes dead immediately;
(i) If the ball is in player possession, the team in possession may elect to put the ball in play where it has been declared dead or to replay the down.
(ii) If the ball is a loose ball resulting from a fumble, backward pass, or illegal forward pass, the team last in possession may elect to put the ball in play at the spot where possession was lost or to replay the down.
(iii) If the ball is a loose ball resulting from a legal forward pass, a free kick, a fair-catch kick, or a scrimmage kick, the ball is returned to the previous spot, and the down is replayed.

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, Maybe Someday said:

 

I know it tells his blockers but is it actually in the rule book the same way the fair catch signal is? If not it will be.

 

The NFL wrote/worded so many rules specifically to remove judgement calls from the refs. Was tough to hear common sense officiating when it should be black and white. 

Ooo well. I am glad they did it. Finally common sense used by officials. Needs to happen with entire rule book. And I for one think they got it right and that will not change 

[Meatloaf63]

58 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

To give yourself up you have to kneel or slide or have some other body part hit the deck.

 

He could have fair caught it also. Or just not caught the ball in the first place. But since he did catch it he needs to give himself up and according to the rules he did not.

You’re arguing with someone who hasn’t a clue about the rules, that never goes well and I’m sure he’ll never admit he is wrong....

[MAJBobby]

2 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said:

Since you’re too lazy to do it yourself and your acting like an expert on something you don’t know anything about, I did your home work for you. “E” is the relevant line and every expert has pointed to this as why the ruling was wrong. Why do you think the official didn’t blow his whistle and backed away from the ball? The call on the field was the correct call. 
 

Section 2 Dead Ball
Article 1: Dead Ball Declared. An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended:
(a) when a runner is contacted by a defensive player and touches the ground with any part of his body other than his hands or feet. The ball is dead the instant the runner touches the ground. A runner touching the ground with his hands or feet while in the grasp of an opponent may continue to advance; or
(b) when a runner is held or otherwise restrained so that his forward progress ends; or
(c) when a quarterback immediately drops to his knee (or simulates dropping to his knee) behind the line of scrimmage; or
(d) when a runner declares himself down by sliding feet first on the ground. The ball is dead the instant the runner touches the ground with anything other than his hands or his feet; or
Note: Defenders are required to treat a sliding runner as they would a runner who is down by contact.
(1) A defender must pull up when a runner begins a feet-first slide. This does not mean that all contact by a defender is illegal. If a defender has already committed himself, and the contact is unavoidable, it is not a foul unless the defender commits some other act, such as helmet-to-helmet contact or by drivinghisforearmorshoulderintotheheadorneck areaoftherunner.
(2) A runner who desires to take advantage of this protection is responsible for starting his slide before contact by a defensive player is imminent; if he does not, and waits until the last moment to begin his slide, he puts himself in jeopardy of being contacted.
(e) when a runner is out of bounds, or declares himself down by falling to the ground, or kneeling, and making no effort to advance; or
(f) when an opponent takes a ball that is in the possession of a runner who is on the ground; or
Note: An opponent may take or grab a ball (hand to hand) in possession of a runner who is on his feet or is airborne.
(g) when a forward pass (legal or illegal) is incomplete (see 8-1-4); or
(h) when any legal or illegal kick touches the receivers’ goal posts or crossbar, unless it scores a field goal (see 9-4-2); or
(i) when a loose ball comes to rest anywhere in the field of play, and no player attempts to recover it; the official covering the play should pause momentarily before signaling that the ball is dead. Any legal (or illegal) kick is awarded to the receivers, and any other ball is awarded to the team last in possession. When awarded to a team behind a goal line, the ball is placed on the one-yard line.
(j) when any legal or illegal kick is caught or recovered by the kickers, except a scrimmage kick that is kicked from behind the line and is recovered behind the line (not a Try kick). See 9-3-2-Item3 for exception; or
(k) when the defense gains possession during a Try, or it is obvious a Try-kick will not score; or
(l) when a touchdown, touchback, safety, field goal, or Try has been made; or
(m) when any receiver catches or recovers the ball after a fair catch signal (valid or invalid) has been made, provided the ball has not been touched by an opponent, before or after it strikes the ground; or
(n) when an official sounds his whistle while the ball is still in play, the ball becomes dead immediately;
(i) If the ball is in player possession, the team in possession may elect to put the ball in play where it has been declared dead or to replay the down.
(ii) If the ball is a loose ball resulting from a fumble, backward pass, or illegal forward pass, the team last in possession may elect to put the ball in play at the spot where possession was lost or to replay the down.
(iii) If the ball is a loose ball resulting from a legal forward pass, a free kick, a fair-catch kick, or a scrimmage kick, the ball is returned to the previous spot, and the down is replayed.

 

cool No desire to Advance. Thanks. 

[K-9]

14 minutes ago, Rocbillsfan1 said:

Spoken like a tough guy. I’ll include an example for the close minded people. I play on a pool team that qualified for the all cities tournament which is a March madness style tournament that you have to earn the right to qualify for. winner gets $8000 and trip to Vegas to compete in nationals after 2 full days we were in the championship game and needed 1 more win to close out the match. The opposing player beat our player in that game by making the 8ball, the cue ball was rolling down the table and he picked it up while it was still rolling.  I’ve never seen anyone do that before and by rules it’s a table scratch and a automatic loss. That was it and we won the game and went to Vegas. You can feel bad for people doing questionable things when the stakes are high and you aren’t thinking straight but rules are rules and all I’m hearing from certain trolls is get over it or it happens all the time with 0 proof that it does. And all the facts point that it shouldn’t have been overturned. Maybe by protesting season tickets it may make the pegulas step in and demand changes from the NFL. Again tough to say what it would look like but I think everyone would be in agreement that removing goodell might be a great start. 

Spoken like a tough guy? 
 

How tough do you have to be to accept the fact that you can’t change a ref’s call and that 65 other plays on both sides of the ball during the course of a contest have a bearing on the outcome as well? How tough do you have to be to face disappointment head on? How tough do you have to be to realize that incessant whining about officials is nothing more than a loser’s lament? 

[MAJBobby]

Just now, Meatloaf63 said:

You’re arguing with someone who hasn’t a clue about the rules, that never goes well and I’m sure he’ll never admit he is wrong....

I know it sucks being but hurt. Tell me again please cause it still won’t change a thing. RIGHT COMMON SENSE CALL