How much is cole beasly really loving the bills?

[ROCBillsBeliever]

14 hours ago, Ronin said:

 

Maybe everyone's making excuses for Allen and blaming everything on everyone but Allen.  

 

Okay, Jeffismagic, we get it... we should have picked Mahomes ?

[Ronin]

3 minutes ago, ROCBillsBeliever said:

Okay, Jeffismagic, we get it... we should have picked Mahomes ?

 

Not sure I see the relevance, but OK.  

 

I simply don't think we should have picked Allen.  Too risky, and those risks are currently playing out.  So anyone arguing to the contrary ignores that.  

 

Once again, this is a clinic on team-building.  This offense is the worst it's been in over a decade since Jauron under McD, another defensive-minded coach similar to Jauron, who also BTW had a specialization in the secondary.  The comps are uncanny.  

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, formerlyofCtown said:

 

Prescott is top shelf mediocre.  That is still mediocre though.  

I don’t think he’ll ever be an elite guy but if Allen has this start to his career, we’d cream ourselves.  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PresDa01.htm

 

and I love the Cole pickup but let’s be honest. He came because of money and that’s fine.  

[CincyBillsFan]

21 minutes ago, Ronin said:

 

I'm huge on Edmunds.  And yes, I could.  Unfortunately for your argument I'm not running around talking about him as if he's headed for all-pro status this or next season while slamming anyone that says something to the contrary, am I now.  

 

Edmunds didn't come into the league with anywhere near the risks that Allen did.  He was also the youngest player in the league last season and still played admirably.  

 

He also wasn't one of the worst few LBs in the league last season now, was he?  

 

 

Are you seriously trying to compare the assessment & treatment of a QB to that of a middle LB?  Apples & oranges. 

 

*  First off I think Edmunds is going to be a great LB.  I liked that the Bills took a chance in picking Allen & Edmunds in  the 1st round last year.  To kick start this franchise out of it's long term mediocrity they needed to take chances and they did. 

 

*  Obviously Edmunds was a lower risk pick then Allen but not for the reason you think.  By definition 1st round selections of QB's are riskier then 1st round selections of LB's.  It goes with the position.  NFL QB is a fiendishly tough thing to be good at.

 

*  Yes Edmunds was the youngest player in the NFL which in and of itself was somewhat risky.  And yes he did play very well AT TIMES.  At other times he looked clueless out there and played horribly.  People who know football didn't jump all over him for that because he was ONLY A rookie.  Like Allen, Edmunds flashed signs of greatness and left us with a good deal of optimism about his play next year. 

 

*  I don't know where Edmunds ranked overall as a LB last year.  Unlike QB's who can be analyzed to death and "ranked" according to a myriad of stats, LB's simply aren't evaluated in the same way.   All I can say is that to me watching both of them play, there were similarities in that they each looked all world at times and at other times they both looked awful.  That's what being a rookie is all about.

 

One final note.  It's hard for amateurs like you or me (yes we are amateurs here) to get down in the weeds and really judge these guys.  Unfortunately for QB's there are all these numbers that anybody can look at and pretend they know what they're talking about.  What numbers or video review can we use to evaluate a LB in the same way we think we can evaluate a QB?   

[eball]

On 6/22/2019 at 8:13 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Reminds me of when McCoy came to the Bills b*tchin about Chip Kelly and the Eagles.   Jilted talk.   

 

 

 

Good point!  Chip sure showed LeSean who's boss!

[4merper4mer]

51 minutes ago, Ronin said:

 

It is what I'm doing, I'm sorry that you see it otherwise.  I'm also sorry that it seems to affect you so personally.  That's unfortunate.  

 

I'm huge on Edmunds.  And yes, I could.  Unfortunately for your argument I'm not running around talking about him as if he's headed for all-pro status this or next season while slamming anyone that says something to the contrary, am I now.  

 

Edmunds didn't come into the league with anywhere near the risks that Allen did.  He was also the youngest player in the league last season and still played admirably.  

 

He also wasn't one of the worst few LBs in the league last season now, was he?  

 

The bottom line is quite simple.  McD inherited a team that ranked 10th and 12th in scoring under Ryan, who sucked, and 15th and 16th in scoring D in the two seasons prior to his arrival.  Under him the offense has ranked 22nd and 30th, having descended as such, and the D has ranked 18th in scoring D.  If that offense doesn't get well into the teens this season I don't see how he can possibly remain on.  If that doesn't happen it'll be all but entirely because Allen doesn't turn into the QB that so many here are talking about, not because Edmunds didn't step up. 

 

 

 

BTW, see the post above.  

 

And to add some additional perspective here, the offense ranked both 30th in yards as well as scoring.  The last time that we had such low offensive rankings was under Jauron over a decade ago.  In the six seasons prior to McD's arrival, the team averaged 16th in scoring O, with no QBs worthy of note.  Taylor, Orton, Manuel, and Fitz.   

 

Even this season, if Allen can't outdo them as a 7th overall pick, well, that'll spell it out pretty well.  

 

 

 

Dear Captain Strawman,

 

I haven't claimed Allen is headed for All Pro nor have I slammed you for stating your opinion.  If I've slammed you at all it has been for your arrogant tone and Selective use of standards.

 

Also, I have not been impacted personally in any way whatsoever other than amusement at your self aggrandizing claims and over the top use of hyperbole.  

 

 

[eball]

55 minutes ago, Ronin said:

 

I simply don't think we should have picked Allen.  Too risky, and those risks are currently playing out.  So anyone arguing to the contrary ignores that.  

 

Once again, this is a clinic on team-building.  This offense is the worst it's been in over a decade since Jauron under McD, another defensive-minded coach similar to Jauron, who also BTW had a specialization in the secondary.  The comps are uncanny.  

 

 

"Strange or mysterious, especially in an unsettling way."

 

Please explain what about the coaching history and tendencies of Jauron and McD fit this definition.

[C.Biscuit97]

4 minutes ago, eball said:

 

"Strange or mysterious, especially in an unsettling way."

 

Please explain what about the coaching history and tendencies of Jauron and McD fit this definition.

You really don’t see the similarities?  I think McDermott is a more aggressive defensive coach but I believe he has a similar mindset in how he wants to win games.  He’s conservative and not a risk taker.  He has been terrible on challenges and we have penalty problems.  We also have a tendency to get blown out a lot.  

 

I think McDermott, like Jauron, would be fine if he has a really good OC and Qb and can just concentrate on defense.  I guess we’ll see if we have those because that killed Jauron.

19 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Good point!  Chip sure showed LeSean who's boss!

In fairness, Chip Kelly won 10 game in his first 2 seasons.  He should have never been the GM. 

1 hour ago, Ronin said:

 

Not sure I see the relevance, but OK.  

 

I simply don't think we should have picked Allen.  Too risky, and those risks are currently playing out.  So anyone arguing to the contrary ignores that.  

 

Once again, this is a clinic on team-building.  This offense is the worst it's been in over a decade since Jauron under McD, another defensive-minded coach similar to Jauron, who also BTW had a specialization in the secondary.  The comps are uncanny.  

That’s where I’m at on Allen too.  I think it was a risky pick based on a lot of history for an organization that sucks at developing qbs.  I mean if we had Andy Reid or Sean McVay, it’s one thing.  

[Ronin]

1 hour ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Are you seriously trying to compare the assessment & treatment of a QB to that of a middle LB?  Apples & oranges. 

 

No, so take it up with 4merper4mer.  

 

Quote

 

*  First off I think Edmunds is going to be a great LB.  I liked that the Bills took a chance in picking Allen & Edmunds in  the 1st round last year.  To kick start this franchise out of it's long term mediocrity they needed to take chances and they did. 

 

*  Obviously Edmunds was a lower risk pick then Allen but not for the reason you think.  By definition 1st round selections of QB's are riskier then 1st round selections of LB's.  It goes with the position.  NFL QB is a fiendishly tough thing to be good at.

 

 

I am and have been very bullish on Edmunds.  My opinions on him were also very well stated PRIOR TO the Draft.  We have similar views on Edmunds. 

 

My opinions on Allen were also well and unmistakably stated well PRIOR TO the Draft.  I would be insincere/dishonest if they had changed after we drafted him.  I'm just curious tho, and I don't expect an honest answer to this question, but if another team like the Jets or Fins had drafted Allen instead, would everyone here be just as bullish on him.  It's rhetorical at this point, but given the opinions on both Darnold and Jackson, who both had better passing metrics in similar situations, that's at least one data point there.  

 

Otherwise, Edmunds was not the same risk because Allen essentially cost us four day 1 & 2 picks with which we could have revamped our O.  Edmunds could easily have been had with our 12th overall, which was my option.  That necessarily presents a much bigger risk when you trade away all those picks for one player.  

 

And yes, 1st-round QBs are riskier than other positions, which IMO as an analyst, means that it's not a good idea to assume more than the inherent risks as such like we did.  

 

Quote

*  I don't know where Edmunds ranked overall as a LB last year.  Unlike QB's who can be analyzed to death and "ranked" according to a myriad of stats, LB's simply aren't evaluated in the same way.   All I can say is that to me watching both of them play, there were similarities in that they each looked all world at times and at other times they both looked awful.  That's what being a rookie is all about.

 

Well, you could start by comparing his production to other players.  I'm usually the one that does that here so I may as well do it again.  Off the cuff and even before knowing how it will shake out I'll use Kuechly, my favorite current MLB, in comparison.  

 

Edmunds ranked 21 in solo tackles, 13 behind LK who ranked 6th.  

Edmunds ranked tied for 13th in combined tackles, 9 behind 8th-ranked LK. 

Edmunds ranked poorly in TFLs.  LK ranked well. 

Edmunds ranked tied for 20th in PDs, LK ranked poorly like Edmunds did in TFLs.  

Edmunds had 2 INTs to LK's 1.  If you did your homework on Edmunds as a rookie you'd have known that his pass defense skills were very good, particularly for a MLB.  

Edmunds ranked 11th for assisted tackles, LK ranked tied for 18th.  

Edmunds had 12 PDs to LK's 6.  

Edmunds had 7 QB Hits to LK's 5.  Granted, rushing the passer isn't the primary role of a MLB.  

Both had 2 FFs.  

 

I don't care how you slice it, that's competitive.  We cannot say the same thing for Allen re: his passing.  It was only better than Rosen's.  

 

Strangely, Allen's passing metrics blow chunks.  While they seem to have mattered for Taylor, Manuel, and Fitzpatrick, now all of a sudden here they're a cut above irrelevant.  At least I can state unwaveringly that I'm consistent in my analytical methodologies.  

 

Quote

One final note.  It's hard for amateurs like you or me (yes we are amateurs here) to get down in the weeds and really judge these guys.  Unfortunately for QB's there are all these numbers that anybody can look at and pretend they know what they're talking about.  What numbers or video review can we use to evaluate a LB in the same way we think we can evaluate a QB?

 

I don't think it's that hard.  It's hard if people don't run comparisons and look up data, like most don't.  Most simply allow unchallenged narratives to form and then flock like sheep to line up behind those narratives.  Works for politics, sports, and many other things in life.  I analyze professionally.  I'd also put my past analyses re: our players up against anyone in the business.  My record stands for itself.  You didn't here ANYONE anywhere else telling you that Spiller's (as one mere example) skills from Clemson didn't line up well in the NFL, and the same for Watkins and his bubble screens.  EVERYONE contradicted me.  So what, I got lucky?  I don't think so.  Again, to name a mere two examples.  Same for Zay Jones if we want to get more recent.  

 

Even you just implied that there's no way of analyzing Edmunds, for which I took about five minutes, ... OK, maybe 7 or 8, did a quick lookup and sort and came up with the above.  Why can't anyone else do that?  Short answer:  they can, the vast majority of people simply don't and won't.  It's much easier to simply latch onto popular narratives and be optimistic.  Ignorance is bliss, eh.  

 

As I said, my takes on Allen and Edmunds were both there WELL BEFORE that Draft.  I would be insincere/dishonest if I had changed them following the draft, meaning that there's obviously no agenda as many seem to want to believe.  

 

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Ronin

[eball]

11 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You really don’t see the similarities?  I think McDermott is a more aggressive defensive coach but I believe he has a similar mindset in how he wants to win games.  He’s conservative and not a risk taker.  He has been terrible on challenges and we have penalty problems.  We also have a tendency to get blown out a lot.  

 

 

You "believe" he has a similar mindset?  Has McD really proven to be a conservative coach?  You can cherry pick a play or two all day but it certainly wasn't "conservative" to bench Tyrod for Peterman.  Let's see how McD's gameday management changes as he has more confidence in his offense.

 

The challenge thing is overblown.  I think a lot of times, particularly when you know you're out-manned, you may challenge a close call in the hope it gives your team a break.  Again, once McD has confidence in his offense I'd like to see how much he utilizes the challenge system.

 

I agree that McD needs to improve on things like clock management.

 

I don't see a Jauron clone.  Not for a second.

[Ronin]

29 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Dear Captain Strawman,

 

I haven't claimed Allen is headed for All Pro nor have I slammed you for stating your opinion.  If I've slammed you at all it has been for your arrogant tone and Selective use of standards.

 

Also, I have not been impacted personally in any way whatsoever other than amusement at your self aggrandizing claims and over the top use of hyperbole. 

 

OK, goodbye.  If I don't respond to you in the future it's because I've put you on ignore.  I don't see much that you  argue that has merit.  Seems all personally charged to me.  

 

[Ronin]

42 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You really don’t see the similarities?  I think McDermott is a more aggressive defensive coach but I believe he has a similar mindset in how he wants to win games.  He’s conservative and not a risk taker.  He has been terrible on challenges and we have penalty problems.  We also have a tendency to get blown out a lot.  

 

I think McDermott, like Jauron, would be fine if he has a really good OC and Qb and can just concentrate on defense.  I guess we’ll see if we have those because that killed Jauron.

 

In fairness, Chip Kelly won 10 game in his first 2 seasons.  He should have never been the GM. 

That’s where I’m at on Allen too.  I think it was a risky pick based on a lot of history for an organization that sucks at developing qbs.  I mean if we had Andy Reid or Sean McVay, it’s one thing.  

 

Re: Jauron vs. McD, those that don't want to see it won't.  

 

Both haled from the defensive secondary in terms of experience and "growth" in coaching.  Both built teams from the secondary on inward when the conventional wisdom clearly says build from the lines, on both sides out.  I definitely don't see McD doing that.  Our DL is all but a shambles Oliver pending.  None of the players that he's brought in have helped it significantly.  Offensively he's done next to nothing in two years for the OL and we're going to be seeing very soon that these "new and improved' OL-men brought on, as well as Morse with his injury risks, really aren't much better than last year's OL, at least in terms of pass-protection.  Same thing there, none of the players that he's brought in have offered any significant help much less upgrades.  If anything both lines have gotten worse on McD's watch.  

 

There are a few other similarities but at this point it's just pissing into the wind.  

 

Allen was a risky pick because the known issues with him are also known to be very difficult to coach into a player.   Of course our smarter-by-half methods know better.  

 

On that note, so whom does McD get to coach those things into Allen?  Dorsey, from Carolina of course.  Heck, we're almost like Carolina's triple-A team.  

 

But what's Dorsey's track record?  Newton's not a good passer.  His stats are slightly below average.  But here's the thing, Newton has hardly overachieved from college as a former 1st overall pick, in fact it could be argued that he's underachieved.  His Jr. and last season at Auburn was world's better than Allen's was, he lit up Saban's Alabama and played a very good game vs. Oregon's very tough defense in his bowl game.  Allen has never had anything close to that in a game like that.  In fact, against similar caliber teams Allen actually played worse than undrafted QBs if not worse than any in his entire draft class outright.  That should be significant and anyone drafting Allen should have looked at and considered it.  We can assume that they did, which raises questions as to their smarter-by-half methods even more.  

 

If anything I'd say that Newton and therefore Dorsey have underachieved.   The fact that we pulled him from Carolina doesn't really suggest that we scoured the planet looking for the best option for Allen.  Looks more like a "former connection" than anything else.  

 

And believe me, as a Canes fan I love Dorsey who was the best Canes QB ever.  He couldn't play in the NFL tho and I simply dont' see much evidence that he's anything better than a run-of-the-mill QB coach.  I mean the guy failed, miserably, in the NFL, so what's he got to impart to Allen.  What, "here's how I did it, you should do the same."  LOL  

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Ronin

[eball]

50 minutes ago, Ronin said:

Re: Jauron vs. McD, those that don't want to see it won't.  

 

Both haled from the defensive secondary in terms of experience and "growth" in coaching.  Both built teams from the secondary on inward when the conventional wisdom clearly says build from the lines, on both sides out.  I definitely don't see McD doing that.  Our DL is all but a shambles Oliver pending.  None of the players that he's brought in have helped it significantly.  Offensively he's done next to nothing in two years for the OL and we're going to be seeing very soon that these "new and improved' OL-men brought on, as well as Morse with his injury risks, really aren't much better than last year's OL, at least in terms of pass-protection.  Same thing there, none of the players that he's brought in have offered any significant help much less upgrades.  If anything both lines have gotten worse on McD's watch.  

 

There are a few other similarities but at this point it's just pissing into the wind. 

 

DL is a shambles? Hughes is a stud, Star is solid (despite what others say), Phillips is a rising sophomore with lots of potential, and Oliver could be a game-changer.  Murphy is one year removed from an ACL and supposedly in great shape.  Shaq had a decent season last year and is playing for a contract.  Jordan Phillips is a quality rotational DT.  Hardly a "shambles."

 

Nothing to help OL?  Drafted Dawkins and Ford in 2nd round.  Drafted Teller last year.  Did McD anticipate Wood's injury and Incognito's meltdown?  Gee, I guess not, shame on him.

 

The reason you don't post these "other similarities" is because they don't exist.  The "McD is another Jauron" theme is a lazy one espoused by those who don't know what they're talking about.

[Matt_In_NH]

On 6/22/2019 at 8:58 PM, Ronin said:

Well, unless Allen makes a monster leap in his play, Prescott last season was worlds better than Allen.  

 

Here's my big concern, Allen's passing strengths don't lie where Beasley typically caught the ball in Dallas, in fact the opposite, those areas were Allen's biggest weakness last year.  

 

So whether that changes remains to be seen, but talking in the offseason much less the preseason I'm not sure accomplishes much, particularly in Buffalo where we've been offseason and preseason champs for years.  

 

We'll see how Beasley works out, but they don't need him deep.  As it is, he only caught four deep passes last season and the gains were only 18, 19, 21, 21, and 32.  

 

 

Yeah, I share your concern.  There seems to be a lot of people who have no concern and think Allen is refined.....his "catchable balls" are right up there and his completion % issue is only due to the other players on the Bills offense last year.   The high end of production to expect/hope for out of Beasley is something like 2018 Zay Jones numbers....maybe a few more catches.  There seems to be a disproportionate amount of excitement about Beasley compared to what his past production/value are.

[4merper4mer]

3 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

 

That’s where I’m at on Allen too.  I think it was a risky pick based on a lot of history for an organization that sucks at developing qbs.  I mean if we had Andy Reid or Sean McVay, it’s one thing.  

Shirley you can't be serious.  Unless you're talking about helmets and jerseys instead of coaches and GMs, then this "organization" is developing its first QB prospect.  What history are you referencing?

 

By this logic they should never select a QB in the draft at all.  This means Cousins was the only play for them to have made.  Maybe Keenum?

[Rocky Landing]

3 hours ago, Ronin said:

 

OK, goodbye.  If I don't respond to you in the future it's because I've put you on ignore.  I don't see much that you  argue that has merit.  Seems all personally charged to me.  

 

Welcome to the club, 4merper4mer. 

[Alphadawg7]

5 hours ago, Ronin said:

The bottom line is quite simple.  McD inherited a team that ranked 10th and 12th in scoring under Ryan, who sucked, and 15th and 16th in scoring D in the two seasons prior to his arrival.  Under him the offense has ranked 22nd and 30th, having descended as such, and the D has ranked 18th in scoring D.  If that offense doesn't get well into the teens this season I don't see how he can possibly remain on.  If that doesn't happen it'll be all but entirely because Allen doesn't turn into the QB that so many here are talking about, not because Edmunds didn't step up.

 

Man, your take here is one of the worst I have seen.  

1. McD inherited a team on offense that ranked decent because we had one of the top run games in the league (#1 even) behind a pretty good OL, a running QB and a Shady in his prime.  It was a terrible passing team.  
   1. You're using the scoring stats to somehow and try and paint those teams as if they were good...they were NOT an offense that was going to take us anywhere...PERIOD.
   2. Plus, our 3 best OL are gone from that top rushing attack - one via trade who was always hurt and the other 2 from retirement.  
2. McD inherited a team on defense that was WORSE than the rankings.  For someone who claims to know deeper research, you sure are flawed here. 
   1. In 2016 Tom Brady was suspended the first 4 games and Jimmy Garopollo got hurt and their 3rd string QB also hurt his throwing hand to the point that Edelman almost played QB for them.  Plus Gronk was also hurt.  We shut them out due to an ANOMALLY, not because our D was that good.  In fact, with Brady back later that season he hung 31 points on the same Bills defense.
   2. If you look at the other 15 games, we were 26th in the NFL in points allowed, and had Brady played week 4, he likely puts up 30+ on us too that week with would have bumped us down to 28th.  
   3. So you are categorically WRONG about the strength of our defense that McD inherited.  It was literally one of the worst in the NFL, but thanks to the freak anomaly due to EXTREME circumstances against NE, our end of season "rankings" got skewed and created a mirage of being middle of the pack on defense.  
   4. You also seem to forget Rex took over the NUMBER 4 RANKED defense in the NFL and totally wrecked it.  We SUBSTANTIALLY declined under Rex on defense.  

McD and Beane did the right thing and tore the house down, rebuilt our cap, and put this team now on a trajectory for SUSTAINED and consistent success.  The house Rex and Co built was crap and was going no where.  

 

Sorry man, but your takes on this are beyond off and wrong.  

Edited June 24, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[Alphadawg7]

21 hours ago, Ronin said:

 

 

I realize that was the only play like that all season.  

 

Great, you found one play.  Congrats.  How about explaining this video then...thats over 5 minutes long and its just the dropped passes, not even the plays where our receivers ran bad routes, were physically dominated, weren't getting separation, etc.  

 

 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[NewEra]

8 hours ago, K-9 said:

Are you Jerry Sullivan?

Lol.  That’s what I’m saying.  When it’s his reply I have to scroll down to see if I have enough time to read it. The answer is almost always no.  And after reading the entire reply, the majority of the reply has nothing to do with my main point which is usually disregarded 

Edited June 24, 2019 by NewEra

[ROCBillsBeliever]

7 hours ago, Ronin said:

Not sure I've seen the film, but OK. 

 

There... I fixed it for you.