Bleeding Bills Blue Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Bockeye said: https://www.si.com/mmqb/2016/02/24/nfl-draft-combine-offensive-tackles-history Cautionary tale of picking OL early in the draft. Article is from 2016 but still very relevant. "1. Recent history is very ugly. In the past 10 years, there have been five tackles chosen either first or second overall. Above-average starting tackles today among those five: zero." I mean - what is the bust rate at other positions? In 2016 there were 7 Olinemen in the first round: Stanley, Conklin, Tunsil, Decker, kelly, garnett, and ifedi. 6/7 are starters. In 2017 there were 2: Bolles and Ramczyk. Both starters. In 2018 there were 6 in the 1st: Nelson, McGlinchey, Miller, Ragnow, Price, and Wynn. All are starters (Wynn was hurt but is projected to start in 2019) Not only do almost all of those guys play. A lot of them are really good. Seems almost like 1st round O-lineman have a pretty high contribution rate. Edited April 5, 2019 by dneveu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEpsYtown Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 36 minutes ago, dneveu said: I mean - what is the bust rate at other positions? In 2016 there were 7 Olinemen in the first round: Stanley, Conklin, Tunsil, Decker, kelly, garnett, and ifedi. 6/7 are starters. In 2017 there were 2: Bolles and Ramczyk. Both starters. In 2018 there were 6 in the 1st: Nelson, McGlinchey, Miller, Ragnow, Price, and Wynn. All are starters (Wynn was hurt but is projected to start in 2019) Not only do almost all of those guys play. A lot of them are really good. Seems almost like 1st round O-lineman have a pretty high contribution rate. Those are all guys on rookie contracts. That's why they play. They are all going to be starters at this point as teams give them a shot. You have to go back a bit to see the terrible. You also have to try and fast forward and project how many of these guys will be around after their rookie contracts. Out of all of those guys Stanley, Ramczyk, and Nelson are elite players. Miller was also already replaced and moved to RT. Ifedi and Garnett are not good and Conklin is always hurt. Bolles is terrible and the Broncos regret the pick. Price was really bad for the Bengals and they are already regretting the pick and wishing they could have Bodine back. You just have to find the right guys and drafting guys high, who are not elite is a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CookieG Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 14 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said: Forget about PFF grades. Really good stuff here: https://mobile.twitter.com/Cover_1_/status/1113848678073151488 I think it will be a mix of both, but the style of zone game that Castillo was teaching was just so passive. I hope we see something similar to what Johnson was doing as an assistant in Indy, which was mostly power run stuff. Based on the interior guys we signed, signing a tackle to play tight end, and the fact that Indy and NE ate us alive with power run, I think we see more power stuff. Better stuff here...from the same source (I didn't see it posted.) https://www.cover1.net/quinton-spain/2/ A really nice breakdown of the good and the bad. It focuses mostly on run blocking. Its easy to see how going to a ZBS hurt him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 Just now, MrEpsYtown said: Those are all guys on rookie contracts. That's why they play. They are all going to be starters at this point as teams give them a shot. You have to go back a bit to see the terrible. You also have to try and fast forward and project how many of these guys will be around after their rookie contracts. Out of all of those guys Stanley, Ramczyk, and Nelson are elite players. Miller was also already replaced and moved to RT. Ifedi and Garnett are not good and Conklin is always hurt. Bolles is terrible and the Broncos regret the pick. Price was really bad for the Bengals and they are already regretting the pick and wishing they could have Bodine back. You just have to find the right guys and drafting guys high, who are not elite is a mistake. Conklin missed 7 games last year and never missed a game before that. He was also 1st team all-pro as a rookie. Bolles was a 2nd year LT and they had to shuffle quite a bit with injuries - but his penalty numbers are pretty alarming. I'm not sold either, but he's probably as good as Dawkins - just drafted much higher. The regret is picking him up over ramczyk. Miller was drafted to play RT, so maybe it'll work for him? Only a 2nd year player and they just paid a ton to upgrade at LT. Price was lucky to go in round 1 after a torn pec, and he missed some time with a foot injury. Everyone else on that team got hurt but he definitely wasn't very good last year. They can probably have Bodine back if they want him ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Bockeye said: https://www.si.com/mmqb/2016/02/24/nfl-draft-combine-offensive-tackles-history Cautionary tale of picking OL early in the draft. Article is from 2016 but still very relevant. "1. Recent history is very ugly. In the past 10 years, there have been five tackles chosen either first or second overall. Above-average starting tackles today among those five: zero." I'd say Eric Fisher is "above average." I wouldn't say he is any better than that, but he is above average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, dneveu said: Conklin missed 7 games last year and never missed a game before that. He was also 1st team all-pro as a rookie. Bolles was a 2nd year LT and they had to shuffle quite a bit with injuries - but his penalty numbers are pretty alarming. I'm not sold either, but he's probably as good as Dawkins - just drafted much higher. The regret is picking him up over ramczyk. Miller was drafted to play RT, so maybe it'll work for him? Only a 2nd year player and they just paid a ton to upgrade at LT. Price was lucky to go in round 1 after a torn pec, and he missed some time with a foot injury. Everyone else on that team got hurt but he definitely wasn't very good last year. They can probably have Bodine back if they want him ? MrEps isn't a Conklin guy he and I have discussed him before. I like Conklin and he has had one injury that can happen to anyone. I think he was worth pick Tenn used on him if that had been their pick. They traded UP to pick him though, which I am a little more critical of, but he can play and is a very good tackle. Bolles I was extremely wary of in the draft and I am not surprised at all that he has struggled. Miller stinks. I wouldn't have picked him before day 3. Taking him in the first round was laughable. His technique is the definition of sloppy. I thought Price went too early but was surprised just how much he struggled. Maybe he was playing hurt a bit, am more in a wait and see on that one but for me he wasn't a first round pick either. In fact of that four I think 3 were reaches to select in the 1st round. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: MrEps isn't a Conklin guy he and I have discussed him before. I like Conklin and he has had one injury that can happen to anyone. I think he was worth pick Tenn used on him if that had been their pick. They traded UP to pick him though, which I am a little more critical of, but he can play and is a very good tackle. Bolles I was extremely wary of in the draft and I am not surprised at all that he has struggled. Miller stinks. I wouldn't have picked him before day 3. Taking him in the first round was laughable. His technique is the definition of sloppy. I thought Price went too early but was surprised just how much he struggled. Maybe he was playing hurt a bit, am more in a wait and see on that one but for me he wasn't a first round pick either. In fact of that four I think 3 were reaches to select in the 1st round. With Miller i know nothing, I haven't watched a raiders game in a while. I just read through a scouting report and it's a bit bizarre that he went in the 1st. Like no production, lots of injuries... Must've been a workout warrior. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 It’s impossible to know, it’s easy to argue against, but the optimist in me can see an advantage in all new guys, as vets, with a new coach, being able to gel quicker because they are all starting from same place, together, versus 3-4 guys who played together for a couple years in one system under same coach trying to learn a new way with 1-2 additions, likely rookies, which is the way it normally happens. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 11 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said: It’s impossible to know, it’s easy to argue against, but the optimist in me can see an advantage in all new guys, as vets, with a new coach, being able to gel quicker because they are all starting from same place, together, versus 3-4 guys who played together for a couple years in one system under same coach trying to learn a new way with 1-2 additions, likely rookies, which is the way it normally happens. It's also easy to understand how some on the outside can wonder WTF are they doing though? How do you sign 6 UFA OL? Indulgent and impulsive might be what we'd call it if it were the Jets or Dolphins doing it. Comes down to the coaching...........really good coaches can organize a new team quickly. And for the Bills the offensive side of the ball is going to be almost like a first year unit. And it's not like it will be lead by a 10 year vet at QB. A lot of weight on Daboll and Bobby Johnson shoulders this year. If Daboll turns that group into a top 10-15 offense he just might get a HC job. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: It's also easy to understand how some on the outside can wonder WTF are they doing though? How do you sign 6 UFA OL? Indulgent and impulsive might be what we'd call it if it were the Jets or Dolphins doing it. Comes down to the coaching...........really good coaches can organize a new team quickly. And for the Bills the offensive side of the ball is going to be almost like a first year unit. And it's not like it will be lead by a 10 year vet at QB. A lot of weight on Daboll and Bobby Johnson shoulders this year. If Daboll turns that group into a top 10-15 offense he just might get a HC job. Agreed. I think the approach makes a lot of sense: gather up a group of versatile linemen with starting experience, add a stud center, and let the coaches sort things out. Regarding Daboll, I think the bar may be even lower than that. If the offense is anywhere near 15th he will probably get looks. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: It's also easy to understand how some on the outside can wonder WTF are they doing though? How do you sign 6 UFA OL? Indulgent and impulsive might be what we'd call it if it were the Jets or Dolphins doing it. Comes down to the coaching...........really good coaches can organize a new team quickly. And for the Bills the offensive side of the ball is going to be almost like a first year unit. And it's not like it will be lead by a 10 year vet at QB. A lot of weight on Daboll and Bobby Johnson shoulders this year. If Daboll turns that group into a top 10-15 offense he just might get a HC job. Yep. Huge overhaul. Out of necessity though. 8 of our OL were awful. All but one or two of our WR and TE were awful. Not just bad; awful. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 19 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: It's also easy to understand how some on the outside can wonder WTF are they doing though? How do you sign 6 UFA OL? Indulgent and impulsive might be what we'd call it if it were the Jets or Dolphins doing it. Comes down to the coaching...........really good coaches can organize a new team quickly. And for the Bills the offensive side of the ball is going to be almost like a first year unit. And it's not like it will be lead by a 10 year vet at QB. A lot of weight on Daboll and Bobby Johnson shoulders this year. If Daboll turns that group into a top 10-15 offense he just might get a HC job. Makes me feel better that they are all veterans.....who "should" gel more quickly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEpsYtown Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, dneveu said: With Miller i know nothing, I haven't watched a raiders game in a while. I just read through a scouting report and it's a bit bizarre that he went in the 1st. Like no production, lots of injuries... Must've been a workout warrior. Yeah Miller blew up the combine. I not saying he's going to be terrible, there is upside, but he needs a ton of work. Edited April 5, 2019 by MrEpsYtown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 13 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said: Yeah Miller blew up the combine. I not saying he's going to be terrible, there is upside, but he needs a ton of work. Whereas I am saying he is going to be terrible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEpsYtown Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Whereas I am saying he is going to be terrible. Yep. The pre draft fascination with him was weird. Not that different than Connor McDermott as a prospect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat68 Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 From what I've seen he is a pretty good run blocker at the POA. He also gets good movement. I think he is the probable LG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 1 hour ago, MrEpsYtown said: Yep. The pre draft fascination with him was weird. Not that different than Connor McDermott as a prospect. wonder if it was a Mckenzie pick, or a gruden pick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEpsYtown Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 46 minutes ago, Mat68 said: From what I've seen he is a pretty good run blocker at the POA. He also gets good movement. I think he is the probable LG. Hes got some nasty in him too, which is something you get from Feliciano and Long as well. Sometimes from Morse too. I like the mentality we are building with this line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Formation Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 Quenton is traveling tonight on a plane. I can see the red tail lights headed for Spain. Lord I miss Quenton. Lord I miss him so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 9 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said: The only linemen I have really strong feelings for is Risner. If he is there at 40, I take him. Or if I need to trade up a bit I still take him. He is the perfect fit. I just became a fan. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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