The gap between the haves and have-nots is growing wider

[SoCal Deek]

What in the world is the point? Are there good teams and bad teams? Yes there are! Is it systemic? No it’s not. The sample size and length are not long enough to draw any conclusions other than teams with good coaching, ownership and quarterbacking tend to do better. NO KIDDING!

[mjt328]

The league has always been this way.  For all the talk about parity, the same teams (those with the best quarterbacks) always rise to the top of the standings.

 

The Patriots with Brady.  The Steelers with Roethlisberger.  Those teams have been at the top for 15+ years now.

The Colts and Broncos were good when Manning was around.  Not so much since then.

 

The teams with good/not-great quarterbacks see some year-to-year fluctuation in the middle of the pack.  Chargers, Ravens, Bengals, etc.

The teams with poor QB situations like the Browns, Jets, Jaguars or Bills get the occasional good season thanks to strong defense, but it doesn't last.  They eventually fall right back down to the bottom.

 

Usually when you see a new team suddenly become dominant (Chiefs, Rams), it's because they suddenly have a new hotshot QB.  Hopefully that's what we eventually get out of Josh Allen.

 

[Chuck Wagon]

We can't even complete a pass 10 yards down the field and the league is rigging games against us?  Give me a break....

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

3 hours ago, LittleJoeCartwright said:

 

Isn’t always true. Philip Rivers is one of the better QBs but the Chargers don’t make the playoffs every year.

 I think Stafford has been a good franchise QB but his lions rarely make the playoffs.  

 

Yeah - but i would say its been easier to be a coach/GM for rivers.  He's had andy reid in his division for like 7 years, and had peyton manning for a bit.

 

I also feel like the chargers are alywas injured.

[Bing Bong]

Honestly this article leads me to the conclusion that the Bills are going to be alright primarily due to the insane amount of old HOF quarterbacks (there's gotta be 6!) drafted frequently and consecutively playing at their top zenith level. I think externally more than incompetence internally (boy have we been incompetent) is a bigger reason for the drought and all them 8-8 seasons we've had in the Tom Brady era. We were simply a team not lucky enough to get a 10-6 season out of our *** like the Dolphins with Chad Pennington one random year to sporadically break a drought.

 

It feels so similar to the Kelly, Elway, Young, Marino, Favre, Aikman years where these teams traded SB appearances and long runs of success.. Free Agency or not; we were on the lucky end of that spectrum and didn't see teams living a football style just like we have the past 2 decades. Of course those guys retired early and I think we see teams like the early 2000s where the 2001 Ravens, 2003 Bucs, 2002 and 2004 Pats, and (with a nerfed Brady and godsend Viniateri) and 2006 Steelers (with a nerfed Big Ben going 15-1 in 2005) where defense and simply a complete team can beat most of the run of the mill quarterbacks playing. Ya'll realize the top quarterbacks those years were considered McNair, Vick, McNabb, Culpepper, Trent Green and Hasselback were among the best? That's about to happen when these ageless HOF guys go away and mediocre to great (not necessarily elite) quarterback play from Josh Allen is all we need with obvious offensive improvements for when the time comes to be back to any given sunday.. any given season when the stars align and we make deep playoff runs.. All provided we have a complete package like those early Pats teams (Brady was a more clutch Alex Smith than he was a Dan Marino).. Things are gonna be allllright  

Edited November 9, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[Soda Popinski]

2 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

52 points ? Will the Bills ever do that under Mcclappy ?

Give up?  Yes probably pretty soon.   Score?  I doubt it.   

[JoPar_v2]

NFL “parity” is judged over the course of several seasons, not within any single one. The author is missing the point. There are always bad teams every season in the NFL. What makes the league different than, say, the NBA is the ability of most teams to improve (or fall) relatively quickly over the course of a few years. Except the Bills of course. That’s a Bills problem though, not an NFL problem.

[Bing Bong]

8 minutes ago, Soda Popinski said:

Give up?  Yes probably pretty soon.   Score?  I doubt it.   

I really don't blame the defense if they look like they give up sometimes. It's tough as a competitor knowing you don't have control over the other side of the ball scoring at least 10 no matter how well you play.

 

I just hope that doesn't stick to these young players as "that's just professional football, get paid and work just hard enough to get paid again.. losing doesn't hurt as much as it used to be" going forward and they can put these experiences in perspective knowing their whole career is defined by their effort in winning whenever given the opportunity. And of course, they must learn to hate the Pats. Because I want Tre White to carry that Gronk hit into pure hatred to destroy the Bradyless Pats with no mercy.. when he's age 35 still harboring hate against a terrible Pats team from an experience 13 years ago.

[Soda Popinski]

Just now, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

I really don't blame the defense if they look like they give up sometimes. It's tough as a competitor knowing you don't have control over the other side of the ball scoring at least 10 no matter how well you play.

 

I just hope that doesn't stick to these young players as "that's just professional football, get paid and work just hard enough to get paid again.. losing doesn't hurt as much as it used to be" going forward and they can put these experiences in perspective knowing their whole career is defined by their effort in winning whenever given the opportunity. And of course, they must learn to hate the Pats. Because I want Tre White to carry that Gronk hit into pure hatred to destroy the Bradyless Pats with no mercy.. when he's age 35 still harboring hate against a terrible Pats team from an experience 13 years ago.

I think once they see a competent offense moving the ball downfield, the urgency to get the ball back and give it to them so they can score takes over.   I don't see any carryover of negativity once we start making moves in free agency and in the draft to improve the talent on the offense.   The defense will be fine. 

[BillsVet]

6 hours ago, row_33 said:

They demand equality of outcome. That’s a losing strategy for every area of life.

 

equality of opportunity is all one can honestly hope for, which will not eliminate the reality fact that some people are just plain better than you in areas of life, and you will have to deal with that fact

 

the NFL provides the most equality of opportunity in that the worst teams automatically have first crack at the best talent from college

 

I've always thought it funny that with all the attempts to institute parity, there are still the have's and have-nots.  You give teams like Cleveland and Buffalo perennial top picks, as much salary cap space as the big market teams and they've largely wasted those resources. 

 

No matter how much equality the league wants to establish, there will always be the teams which win consistently. And you'll always have the teams which don't.  To me, that comes down to bad management.

[Chris66]

Nfl will never have parity. To many bad organizations that keep doing stupid things.

[Soda Popinski]

5 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

I've always thought it funny that with all the attempts to institute parity, there are still the have's and have-nots.  You give teams like Cleveland and Buffalo perennial top picks, as much salary cap space as the big market teams and they've largely wasted those resources. 

 

No matter how much equality the league wants to establish, there will always be the teams which win consistently. And you'll always have the teams which don't.  To me, that comes down to bad management.

Equality is not equal.  If you have bad front offices and bad general managers  it doesn't matter how many 1st round picks you have.   They will be consistently making bad decisions.   

 

It really comes down to the QB and nothing more.  If you have one, you are a have.  If you don't have one you're a have not.  Everything else is filler. 

[iinii]

13 hours ago, Utah John said:

Success in the NFL can be self-sustaining.  Players want to win rings so up to a point they will sacrifice money to be on a great team. Players who know they're not on winning teams focus on money.  The exception that provides the rule is New England, where Brady could have raped the Patriots but chose only to make a fortune and not a king's ransom. This let the Pats put more quality players around him, and he gets to be regarded as the GOAT.  (The actual GOAT is either Montana or Peyton.)  

 

The Bills had this going a generation ago.  Their great front office brought in real talent and a deep coaching staff had them working together.  The Bills had fun, and other teams' players wanted to play with them.  Then Ralph, God bless him, lost it.  Fired Polian, fired Butler, brought in obscenely terrible front office people, let his Detroit-based beancounter determine whether the Bills could sign particular players, ruined the scouting staff, paid lazy guys tens of millions and let good players walk away.  Now they're fighting to get back on the winner side of the hill, and it's a lot easier getting to the loser side as they're finding out.

 

The draft is supposed to tend teams toward parity but that hardly ever works. When it does work, it's great.

Brady has more rings than Montana or Manning. How are they better?

[SoCal Deek]

I’m not sure I buy the premise. If you look at the current standings in each Division, with the exception of the Patriots, it’s not hard to recall a recent season when the standings in each of them were completely flipped from top to bottom. Try it and see!

[iinii]

The league in its greed for expansion has watered itself down. There just aren’t enough elite QBs or HCs. 

I would like to see something similar to the EPL, with a first division and second division. It would stop the tanking. First division games would be much more competitive as would second division. Firsts trying to maintain status and seconds trying to level up.

1 hour ago, Chris66 said:

Nfl will never have parity. To many bad organizations that keep doing stupid things.

Fairly true for all leagues. 

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, iinii said:

The league in its greed for expansion has watered itself down. There just aren’t enough elite QBs or HCs. 

 

IMHO The ‘problem’ is not that aren’t enough elite quarterbacks. The problem is that right there are a handful who simply won’t retire even while playing at an incredibly high level. We’ve really not seen this before. Those half dozen guys know more about the game and the play than the coaches on either sideline do. That generation can’t play forever...or can they?

[row_33]

2 hours ago, Chris66 said:

Nfl will never have parity. To many bad organizations that keep doing stupid things.

 

one way of looking at it

 

the NFC has had so-called parity for a long time now, it has almost always had 4 or so very good teams to fight it out to get to the SB, the AFC a lot less so.

 

 

 

 

and again, the number of teams repeating a division win in a given year since they went to the 8x4 format is 3 a year, even with Brady and Peyton dominating for a long part of this...

 

 

[Bing Bong]

3 hours ago, Soda Popinski said:

I think once they see a competent offense moving the ball downfield, the urgency to get the ball back and give it to them so they can score takes over.   I don't see any carryover of negativity once we start making moves in free agency and in the draft to improve the talent on the offense.   The defense will be fine. 

I'm hoping on it man. That's all I can speak for cause I don't know what's going through their heads, but impressionable players getting paid on losing in blowouts ain't good. It's all about the coaching and intangibles these guys carried with them from college.

[Soda Popinski]

1 minute ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

I'm hoping on it man. That's all I can speak for cause I don't know what's going through their heads, but impressionable players getting paid on losing in blowouts ain't good. It's all about the coaching and intangibles these guys carried with them from college.

That's the culture McDermott is trying to build.   Mental toughness to get through the times when we couldn't beat an egg.  

[Fadingpain]

I don't know how much this relates to this article in particular, but for a while now I have been thinking about the prospect of a separate "salary cap" or set of rules strictly for the QB position, to exist along side, but separate from, the regular team salary cap.

 

I think it would be interesting and fun to discuss the merits of such an idea.

 

The QB position is so important, and it eats up so much $$$ under the cap, I think it could be interesting to keep it separate from the rest of the team.  Might help both QBs and regular players.

 

 

[row_33]

10 minutes ago, Fadingpain said:

I don't know how much this relates to this article in particular, but for a while now I have been thinking about the prospect of a separate "salary cap" or set of rules strictly for the QB position, to exist along side, but separate from, the regular team salary cap.

 

I think it would be interesting and fun to discuss the merits of such an idea.

 

The QB position is so important, and it eats up so much $$$ under the cap, I think it could be interesting to keep it separate from the rest of the team.  Might help both QBs and regular players.

 

 

 

they did change it, Stafford is the last golden contract for QBs

 

 

[Bing Bong]

7 minutes ago, Soda Popinski said:

That's the culture McDermott is trying to build.   Mental toughness to get through the times when we couldn't beat an egg.  

Cautiously optimistic man. What he's trying to do and will do I'm not going to bet is sure fire chance

[Soda Popinski]

7 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

Cautiously optimistic man. What he's trying to do and will do I'm not going to bet is sure fire chance

it all depends on whether or not they invest in the oline.   you can't have rag tags and cast offs and expect to be competitive.   It doesn't work.   We need to completely remake the Oline.   And we need at least 3 new WRs that are capable of getting it done.   The only WR i want to keep around is Zay, and the only OL I want to keep is Dawkins and even then I don't want him at LT anymore.   

 

 

[Bing Bong]

2 minutes ago, Soda Popinski said:

it all depends on whether or not they invest in the oline.   you can't have rag tags and cast offs and expect to be competitive.   It doesn't work.   We need to completely remake the Oline.   And we need at least 3 new WRs that are capable of getting it done.   The only WR i want to keep around is Zay, and the only OL I want to keep is Dawkins and even then I don't want him at LT anymore.   

 

 

Absolutely. Fix this QUICK and the defense has infinitely less chance of growing jaded.

 

They shouldn't have been in this position to begin with anyway

Edited November 9, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[Mr. WEO]

16 hours ago, Utah John said:

  The exception that provides the rule is New England, where Brady could have raped the Patriots but chose only to make a fortune and not a king's ransom. This let the Pats put more quality players around him, and he gets to be regarded as the GOAT.  (The actual GOAT is either Montana or Peyton.)  

 

 

 

This is funny.  Surrounded by quality players?  How many future HOF WRs did Brady play with?  Moss for a couple of years?  How many HOF ballot RBs?  His RB list is a continuous list of reclamation projects, early round busts and rentals.

 

Montana was surrounded by Jerry Ricee, Roger Craig, and Dwight Clark....for years!

 

Manning was surrounded by E James, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne (all at least HOF nominees) for years.  Plus Dallas Clark and Stokely (making 3 1000 yd WRs on the roster at the same time).  And Still, Manning came up tiny come playoff time. 

 

Even so, it's all about the HC/QB combo.

 

And can people stop saying they aren't making elite QBs anymore?  The league has a bunch of super talented young QBs right now.

 

 

 

 

[Soda Popinski]

2 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

Absolutely. Fix this QUICK and the defense has infinitely less chance of growing jaded.

 

They shouldn't have been in this position to begin with anyway

it was a tough offseason, losing Wood and Incognito was a bad deal.  then we needed a QB so letting Glenn go made sense too.   It can be a quick turnaround if Beane and McD acknowledge the line and the WRs are terrible and make that the focus of the offseason.   We can't just draft 5th and 6th round guys and hope for the best.  They have to be prioritized. 

[sleeby]

19 hours ago, ocemur said:

The League decided more passing and scoring would be a better product. They just forgot to check if they had the inventory. Ten years ago or more, a really good defense could negate a really good QB. When they shifted the rules to get more scoring they created a game where only a great QB can beat a great QB. Since there isn't enough great QBs for everyone, some teams are just plain left out.

 

So what do you do? You can't create more great QBs, and they don't want to give up the scoring they believe will make the product more popular. They can either change the rules to encourage QBs to move from team to team, which just means you have the same problem, just on different teams, or you change the rules to make the running game as productive as the passing game. I'm guessing they would need to change rules on holding, maybe pre snap motion or anything else they can do to give the non QB teams a boost. 

I'm just tossing this out there for conversation - never going to happen - just hypothetical; in other words - don't attack me on this.  Heh.

 

Smaller ball.  Very few NFL players can properly throw an NFL football.  Or so I've heard NFL players state.  A slightly smaller ball would open up the market to many young guys with all the skills and the height but not huge hands.  Ever shaken jim's paw?  Anyhow, maybe there could be more than a handful of greats available at a time.

[Bing Bong]

8 minutes ago, Soda Popinski said:

it was a tough offseason, losing Wood and Incognito was a bad deal.  then we needed a QB so letting Glenn go made sense too.   It can be a quick turnaround if Beane and McD acknowledge the line and the WRs are terrible and make that the focus of the offseason.   We can't just draft 5th and 6th round guys and hope for the best.  They have to be prioritized. 

yep we're not disagreeing with each other. I feel we shouldn't have gone ALL defense in the offseason knowing Glenn, Cogs, Tyrod were leaving. Like invest something besides the rookie QB at the expense of Star (not that he's not playing well) or Vontae Davis.

 

Like the Terrelle Pryor signing. I mean they never acknowledged Peterman was terrible and named him week 1 starter.. yuck. So.. I'm just cautiously optimistic, I see what can happen to make this all come together, but they've made great acquisitions as well as poor mistakes, so I'll believe it when I see it, until then I'm still questioning how we got to this point and how we can finish this jigsaw puzzle with the mistakes made. 

 

I'm cautiously optimistic given decisions to date (think they've done just enough good things to set this all up), but still wary. You're a little bit peppier. Nothing wrong with either perspective.

 

Also just annoyed as a fan that this season is in the tubes, only season I recall as truly unwatchable by most 2nd halves. Life is short, and I don't want to waste a year not enjoying my favorite hobby. But that's my fan cap: absolutely no patience. My GM cap is saying maybe it'll pay major dividends.

[row_33]

29 minutes ago, sleeby said:

I'm just tossing this out there for conversation - never going to happen - just hypothetical; in other words - don't attack me on this.  Heh.

 

Smaller ball.  Very few NFL players can properly throw an NFL football.  Or so I've heard NFL players state.  A slightly smaller ball would open up the market to many young guys with all the skills and the height but not huge hands.  Ever shaken jim's paw?  Anyhow, maybe there could be more than a handful of greats available at a time.

 

force top college teams to make their QBs learn how to drop back and throw like a real pro, instead of running options against totally overwhelmed opponents 95% of the time

 

 

[Wroughting]

The have and have-nots have always been there, at least in the past 20 years. You have a good qb and decent coaching, you'll win more than you'll lose. The difference this year, at least in my opinion, is that scoring has never been easier. A bad team with a good defense could score maybe 20 to 25 points and upset a good team occasionally. Good teams are putting up 30-40 points regularly this season and the bad teams simply cannot, even on a great day. Until they can find a way to get more good quarterbacks, this will remain the case. 

[row_33]

34 minutes ago, Wroughting said:

The have and have-nots have always been there, at least in the past 20 years. You have a good qb and decent coaching, you'll win more than you'll lose. The difference this year, at least in my opinion, is that scoring has never been easier. A bad team with a good defense could score maybe 20 to 25 points and upset a good team occasionally. Good teams are putting up 30-40 points regularly this season and the bad teams simply cannot, even on a great day. Until they can find a way to get more good quarterbacks, this will remain the case. 

 

re-watch last year's SB, only once did either D do anything at all on the field

 

many called it a classic...

 

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

7 hours ago, Soda Popinski said:

Equality is not equal.  If you have bad front offices and bad general managers  it doesn't matter how many 1st round picks you have.   They will be consistently making bad decisions.   

 

It really comes down to the QB and nothing more.  If you have one, you are a have.  If you don't have one you're a have not.  Everything else is filler. 

 

...pretty strange how the same guys seem to get retreaded and recycled......whether GM's or HC's......up and coming coordinators earn a HC shot only to return to coordinator positions......certainly does not seem to be an ounce of confidence in tapping the collegiate ranks....then again, HC's in the collegiate ranks hold THE hammer, don't have to deal with NFL divas and have NO salary cap......figure the upper echelon collegiate HC's are in the $5-9 mil range and are campus deities as long as they keep boosters happy happy...pick your poison.....

[Soda Popinski]

15 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...pretty strange how the same guys seem to get retreaded and recycled......whether GM's or HC's......up and coming coordinators earn a HC shot only to return to coordinator positions......certainly does not seem to be an ounce of confidence in tapping the collegiate ranks....then again, HC's in the collegiate ranks hold THE hammer, don't have to deal with NFL divas and have NO salary cap......figure the upper echelon collegiate HC's are in the $5-9 mil range and are campus deities as long as they keep boosters happy happy...pick your poison.....

Exactly.  Saban is a God in Alabama, same with Urban in Ohio State but I think that is weakening a bit.  Sweeny in Clemson.  These guys can do no wrong and their kids either get in line of find another school because there are a dozen 5 star recruits waiting to take their place.   It's better right now to be a college coach than an NFL HC.    Unless you're Gruden and you are going to get 100 million dollars to essentially ruin a franchise. 

[Matt_In_NH]

I've been saying this for years, the game has changed a lot, the idea of parity in the NFL is a joke.  Its the teams that have qb's and the ones that done.   For something like 16 out of the last 18 years the QB in the SB from the AFC has been Manning, Brady or Roethlisburger.   That trend will likely continue.   The NFL used to have parity, not anymore.  

 

Sure you can take a shot here and there with an adequate QB and a good defense but to consistently compete for the Superbowl year in and year out requires a great QB and coaching.   People want to talk about "it all starts up front" and "we need weapons".   What we need is a great QB and great coaching and the rest will take care of itself.

[row_33]

20 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

This is funny.  Surrounded by quality players?  How many future HOF WRs did Brady play with?  Moss for a couple of years?  How many HOF ballot RBs?  His RB list is a continuous list of reclamation projects, early round busts and rentals.

 

Montana was surrounded by Jerry Ricee, Roger Craig, and Dwight Clark....for years!

 

Manning was surrounded by E James, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne (all at least HOF nominees) for years.  Plus Dallas Clark and Stokely (making 3 1000 yd WRs on the roster at the same time).  And Still, Manning came up tiny come playoff time. 

 

Even so, it's all about the HC/QB combo.

 

And can people stop saying they aren't making elite QBs anymore?  The league has a bunch of super talented young QBs right now.

 

 

 

 

 

Bill Simmons on his podcast this week discusses the best skill players Brady worked with, I had forgotten most of the names brought up in the discussion.

 

 

 

Names like Shane Vereen....

 

[iinii]

22 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

IMHO The ‘problem’ is not that aren’t enough elite quarterbacks. The problem is that right there are a handful who simply won’t retire even while playing at an incredibly high level. We’ve really not seen this before. Those half dozen guys know more about the game and the play than the coaches on either sideline do. That generation can’t play forever...or can they?

So the problem is a half a dozen old guys won’t retire? I get what you are saying. Even if all of them walk away this year I find it hard to believe parity will be that much more even. Cream will rise to the top of course, but teams, chemistry, coaches still matter and there isn’t enough of any to make 32 winners. In every league, on opening day they may all have a chance but Vegas has future odds for a reason.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

2 hours ago, Soda Popinski said:

Exactly.  Saban is a God in Alabama, same with Urban in Ohio State but I think that is weakening a bit.  Sweeny in Clemson.  These guys can do no wrong and their kids either get in line of find another school because there are a dozen 5 star recruits waiting to take their place.   It's better right now to be a college coach than an NFL HC.    Unless you're Gruden and you are going to get 100 million dollars to essentially ruin a franchise. 

 

...exactly why Saban bailed on the 'Fins....didn't have the golden hammer to intimidate divas..............

[Soda Popinski]

On 11/10/2018 at 11:49 AM, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...exactly why Saban bailed on the 'Fins....didn't have the golden hammer to intimidate divas..............

I don't think he ever intended to stay in Miami.  I think it was a stepping stone to get from LSU to Alabama and not have the fans in Louisiana be as upset.