Broken Pass Protections - Why? What's the Fix?

[Paulus]

6 hours ago, frostbitmic said:

Would he have his dead fathers head hanging in his locker ?

JoBu seems fine wit it.

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by Paulus

[billsredneck1]

7 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

The Bills did go with a 7 man line in that first series at GB after McCoy made 7 yards on first down they ran him again out of the I formation on second down up the middle and he got two yards. They went with Ivory on 3rd and one and he was stuffed.

 

This with the Bills having 7 men on the line facing 5 packers on the line. The Packers Lbers saw run and they closed to the line fast. Ducasse overran the hole and allowed a Packer inside. 

 

After that failed 3rd and one, the Bills didn't even attempt many runs the rest of the game despite McCoy getting 4.8 YPC average. Shady saw 5 carries all game and he stated that the game plan going into this game was to get him the ball more.    

 

The Bills players on the line are incompetent as is the line coaching as is the play calling.

 

 

 

Yes, the defense has been starting slow. Now stop and think about what the defense would look like if the Bills had a strong run game! The defense wouldn't be on the field as much and should the Bills get the lead I can see the defense doing to many teams what they did to the Vikings...provided Hughes isn't mugged, tackled, held at the line like he was in GB.

 

The defense is the least of the team's problems right now IMO.

 

 

the officiating seemed like it was payback for the bills having killed the vegas line the week before.  it was criminal.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 hours ago, 3rdand12 said:

Daboll is new. Castillo likely gets benefit of the doubt till last weekend.
time to move on. Daboll should have found a guy by now and McB should trust Brian to run BD's offense via Daboll's new O line Coach.

it's not you, it's not me . it's Castillo who is ruining Sundays

whos with me..

 

TBH, I don't know if I'm with you or not. 

 

Last year, the performance of the OL fell off, but they weren't this incompetent.  This year, it appears to me they are trying to use different techniques more frequently - more cut blocks and pin/pull - that they are not performing effectively.

 

Whether that's on Daboll (the OC) or Castillo (the OL coach and 'run game coordinator'), I can't tell you.  Maybe Daboll insists on this stuff and Castillo goes into Daboll's office, shuts the door, and argues that other techniques would better suit his men than what Daboll demands while Daboll pounds the desk and orders him to coach better so they learn to do it.  Or maybe this is stuff Castillo wanted all along and Dennison kept a lid on him.

 

All I know is, McDermott is the HC and ensuring that a well-prepared team using schemes and techniques that give them the best chance of success takes the field is on him, ultimately.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

9 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

The Bills did go with a 7 man line in that first series at GB after McCoy made 7 yards on first down they ran him again out of the I formation on second down up the middle and he got two yards. They went with Ivory on 3rd and one and he was stuffed.

 

This with the Bills having 7 men on the line facing 5 packers on the line. The Packers Lbers saw run and they closed to the line fast. Ducasse overran the hole and allowed a Packer inside. 

 

After that failed 3rd and one, the Bills didn't even attempt many runs the rest of the game despite McCoy getting 4.8 YPC average. Shady saw 5 carries all game and he stated that the game plan going into this game was to get him the ball more.    

 

The Bills players on the line are incompetent as is the line coaching as is the play calling.

 

The blocking on that 2nd down play 2nd and 3, was odd.  Do you have all-22? 

It was a straightforward blocking scheme and overall each man handled his assignment OK.   Clay on the L, in particular, is doing a nice job 1:1 on GB #53.

Shady has no lead blocker and is supposed to run up the middle, straight into the unblocked MLB.  That seems to be the play design and that's a problem right there, as that's just not Shady's thing but that is "the running back life" so suck it up, Shady.  If they ran Ivory there, he might have put on a bigger head of steam straight ahead and gotten another yard.

 

OK odd part.  Dawkins is standing around all play with nothing to do.  Maybe he was originally assigned to help with the LB, but Clay is "I got this, man".  So what is Dawkins supposed to contribute?   A double- team on the the GB DE, who is forcing Ducasse back towards the hole as Shady hits it, would make sense, but it's only after the hole closes with Shady in it that Dawkins is like "oh, OK, over here then"

 

3rd and 1.  That was also just a strange play design taking our personnel and GB personnel into account.  Yeah, you're right, it was 5 on 7, but the entire GB backfield knew we were gonna run, and the line assymmetry made it pretty clear where we intended to run it.  So there are two CB and a LB off the line at the point of attack revving their engines.   In the all-22 pre snap you can count all 11 defenders within yards of the line.   I wouldn't put it "Ducasse over ran the hole and allowed a packer inside".  Over on the rt edge they have DIMARCO on MATTHEWS.  Seriously?  DiMarco blocking Matthews?  The guy who tossed Mills aside like a limp rag?   By the time Ducasse gets there, Matthews has shoved Dimarco over to close the hole Ducasse is supposed to block through, and the LB and CB have joined the party.  I think Ducasse tries to help Dimarco and keep the hole clear enough for Ivory to get his yard, but DiMarco and Ducasse against Matthews and another LB, they lose. 

 

To me, it's too cute, strange as it seems describing a 7 man front as "cute".  They need a freakin' yard.  They would have been better off just sending Ivory up the middle without a lead blocker while everyone else is over on the heavy side where they think the action is.   Or they had good success with duo later in the game, why not try that here?

 

 

 

[SoTier]

13 hours ago, Patrick_Duffy said:

The fix? The fix is obviously better linemen needed. Which won't happen til the offseason. And maybe the Oline coach may have a little to do with it. ?

 

The "fix" is to can McDermott and his henchman Beane.  The Bills offensive and defensive performances this season attest to exactly how incompetent these two are.

[Fixxxer]

15 hours ago, NewEra said:

4 of our OLmen are bums.  Castillo is a bum. All should be looking for jobs next season.  One season too late.  

 

Not only they're bums, they must not be very smart, because they can't seem to read where the pressure will come from. They are slow to assess the situation and they're slow to react to it. 

[SoCal Deek]

What does everyone expect? Over the last eight years the Bills have drafted a grand total of three offensive linemen in the first four rounds! And one of them (Glenn) isn’t on the team anymore. They’ve been dumpster diving for a solid decade and we’re all seeing the results.

[Mickey]

14 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

...I'm sorry, but that "the fix is better linemen" is just bunk on this play.  Unless these guys have the brains of corn root nematodes (which the fact that they're walking about getting dressed argues against), this isn't a case of "better linemen needed"...   

 

You had me at "corn root nematodes".

[Patrick Duffy]

14 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

In some cases, Josh Allen fails to recognize a stunting blitz requires protections to be adjusted so someone will pick up the blitzer, or that the called play plain won't work pre-snap because of the defensive alignment.

 

This was not one of those cases.  This was a straight hat-on-hat 6v6, then the TE peels a guy off with him 5v5. 

 

I commend to you the Eric Wood interview I linked in another post, about 19:30 in.  Usually with a young QB, the center calls the protections at the line.  If they are leaving it to the QB to recognize and make this level of protection assignments, that's incredible. 

 

And when I say incredible, I mean that's crap.  It's putting too much on his plate.

 

 

I'm sorry, but that "the fix is better linemen" is just bunk on this play.  Unless these guys have the brains of corn root nematodes (which the fact that they're walking about getting dressed argues against), this isn't a case of "better linemen needed".   What we have here is plain and simple, a failure to communicate or to Understand One's Job.  A job HS OLs around the country get the flick on every Friday night.

 

Whether it's failure to communicate or "understanding ones' job". Either way, it's safe to say this Oline and WR's for that matter lack a lot of talent. So like I said, it falls into the category of needing better linemen. You can call it "bunk" if you want, it's quite obvious the offensive side of the ball needs a few better players.

 

IMO better linemen would be able to "communicate" or "understand one's job" better. So there is no "just bunk on this play"as you say.It is otherwise "just fact".

[johnnychemo]

13 hours ago, LittleJoeCartwright said:

 

Again, why do the Bills continue to run 4 wideouts on 3rd downs when the 5 man line doesn't give the QB enough time to find them?  How about DiMarco in the backfield as additional protection?  Allen should begin to recognize defenses more with experience so give him some more help until he can.

Just a guess, but it might be a bit of a catch-22 (or drop-22 in this case.) The receivers cant win their battles to get open and must rely on numbers to spring an open man. Keep a guy in to block, nobody to throw to. Send 4 receivers, no time to find them. 

[Nihilarian]

11 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It might be simpler to work the run game, but much of the time these first 4 games our run blocking has been a total hot mess.  Some of the time in the passing game, Allen has actually had reasonable protection.

While I agree that the line blocking has been a hot mess. I don't agree that you just give up on it and put the offense of the rookie QB shoulders like Daboll has been doing. Particularly when Shady McCoy was getting 4.8 YPC average in that GB game and this after only 5 carries. 

 

First of all, while Daboll might have the New England playbook. But he sure as hell isn't calling plays like McDaniels does for Brady. Their first priority is to protect Brady at all costs so the entire offense works in unison to pick up blocks if needed before their routes.

 

Their second priority is to move the chains and make first downs with runs, dump offs to the RB (their leading pass catcher against the Colts was RB James White, Gronk was 2nd, Edelman was 3rd) Throws to the TE, short outs and once the QB establishes a rhythm and makes some first down they can take some chance with deeper downfield throws.  

 

Daboll isn't doing anything like that as he is trying to establish a deep downfield passing game when has so many issues to contend with. QB inability in reading protections and the line not helping with those reads at all. The receivers failing to get separation and get open. The line not managing to hold their blocks most of the time or blocking the wrong man. 

 

It should be easier to find ways to establish a run game besides the "I" formation run right up the middle. Need to get McCoy the ball and do it as the Patriots do with White as McCoy is even better.
 

 

Which begs the question? How much longer? How many more loses before McD gets more involved with the offense? He has to know that no run game is killing the defense. At what point does he make a change? 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

While I agree that the line blocking has been a hot mess. I don't agree that you just give up on it and put the offense of the rookie QB shoulders like Daboll has been doing. Particularly when Shady McCoy was getting 4.8 YPC average in that GB game and this after only 5 carries.

(...)

It should be easier to find ways to establish a run game besides the "I" formation run right up the middle. Need to get McCoy the ball and do it as the Patriots do with White as McCoy is even better.
 

Which begs the question? How much longer? How many more loses before McD gets more involved with the offense? He has to know that no run game is killing the defense. At what point does he make a change? 

 

Actually, the "I" formation right up the middle has been one of the more successful plays for our OL.

Seriously.

 

I agree with you that we need to fix the run game as a top priority, it was just that you said " Sounds like an awful lot of "ifs" to get the passing game right. Wouldn't it be simpler to work the run game and then let Allen pick and choose his passes? Play action might actually work if the Bills could run the ball. "

 

The reason it's not simpler, is because right now the blocking for the run game is a total hot mess.  I see glimmers of hope that it can be improved - we do have successful plays here and there, but most of the successes that I've seen to date are plays that don't suit McCoy very well as they feature the back slamming right up the middle through a small hole into a LB, without a lead blocker.  There are a few where McCoy bounces it outside.

 

It's not simpler, but it needs to be done.  I do agree that it's totally nuts to put the weight of the offense on Allen.  Among other things, while our pass blocking is better than our run blocking, it's still on-again, off again and I fear it will teach Allen bad habits.

[3rdand12]

9 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

TBH, I don't know if I'm with you or not. 

 

Last year, the performance of the OL fell off, but they weren't this incompetent.  This year, it appears to me they are trying to use different techniques more frequently - more cut blocks and pin/pull - that they are not performing effectively.

 

Whether that's on Daboll (the OC) or Castillo (the OL coach and 'run game coordinator'), I can't tell you.  Maybe Daboll insists on this stuff and Castillo goes into Daboll's office, shuts the door, and argues that other techniques would better suit his men than what Daboll demands while Daboll pounds the desk and orders him to coach better so they learn to do it.  Or maybe this is stuff Castillo wanted all along and Dennison kept a lid on him.

 

All I know is, McDermott is the HC and ensuring that a well-prepared team using schemes and techniques that give them the best chance of success takes the field is on him, ultimately.

Its fair to question my opinion, as i am certainly guessing at best. I would find it hard to believe it is one Coach or one issue.

 And that is why your point about McDermott is spot on.

 Lets see what the Offense dishes up Sunday and reconvene : )

[3rdand12]

7 hours ago, Mickey said:

 

You had me at "corn root nematodes".

I mean , how do you argue  a point like that  ?  lol

[ColoradoBills]

9 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

TBH, I don't know if I'm with you or not. 

 

Last year, the performance of the OL fell off, but they weren't this incompetent.  This year, it appears to me they are trying to use different techniques more frequently - more cut blocks and pin/pull - that they are not performing effectively.

 

Whether that's on Daboll (the OC) or Castillo (the OL coach and 'run game coordinator'), I can't tell you.  Maybe Daboll insists on this stuff and Castillo goes into Daboll's office, shuts the door, and argues that other techniques would better suit his men than what Daboll demands while Daboll pounds the desk and orders him to coach better so they learn to do it.  Or maybe this is stuff Castillo wanted all along and Dennison kept a lid on him.

 

All I know is, McDermott is the HC and ensuring that a well-prepared team using schemes and techniques that give them the best chance of success takes the field is on him, ultimately.

 

It's a good question you are asking Hap.  I would like to add some speculation to it.

Why did Daboll call a game plan the way he did in GB last Sunday?  When you think about it, he called what would be a "normal" NFL 2018 game.

Heavy passing in which a decent amount of plays were down field plays.  What did he gain from doing this?  He could of called a run heavy dink and dunk.

He could of "schemed" to protect the OL.

 

One result that happened is everyone (media, fans, and even McDermott) started talking almost exclusively about the O-Line.

 

It seems to me that Beane, McDermott, Daboll and Castillo all have something to do with this situation.

When the O-Line got neglected in FA (Bodine and the now cut Newhouse) and the draft (5th on Teller) someone had to OK the results.

 

Did Daboll think it was enough?  I would question that because at the time of year he hadn't even met with any of his linemen.  He is stuck with what he has.

Did Castillo think it was enough?  I would think he was included in the Bodine Newhouse pickups.

Did Beane tell Daboll and Castillo that this is the plan and that's all you guys got to work with this year?

What was McDermott's opinion on this whole thing?  Is he telling Castillo and Daboll to coach up what they got because he thinks talent wise they are

good enough?  Not being an offensive guy he may have been doing that.  He has insinuated they just got to try harder.

 

Fast forward to the end of the 3rd game and the OL has serious questions.

Then Daboll calls a game where the OL has to perform to make his game plan work.

Now the OL is front and center in everyone's conversations.

 

I'm really curious on what kind of game Daboll call tomorrow.  In front of the home crowd I foresee one that assists the bad OL.

But by doing that it limits what the offense can do.  One thing I don't want to have happen is that Daboll spends all year doing that

and come FA time the Bills re-sign Mills and Miller, add 1 guy in FA and draft a 3rd rounder saying "That's good enough in fixing the OL".

 

I know if I was a new OC and was forced to create a plan for the offensive talent (both OL and WR) I was

given I know I would want to show my Defensive orientated HC exactly what I got to work with.

 

Then again Daboll could just be an idiot.  Castillo is still McDermott's boy and a new OC comes in next year.

I sure hope that's not what's going to happen.

 

 

[Scott7975]

On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 3:54 PM, dpberr said:

It's more evidence to heap on  a mountain of evidence that Juan Castillo needs to be fired.  He's the guy in charge of making sure "his" guys know what they are doing.

 

It's clear they don't.  

 

These gameday errors are made because of shotty game day prep and a lack of focus and discipline.  Considering the OL issues go back to training camp, that suggests it's a systemic disconnect between OC, unit coach and personnel.  I don't think the guys on the OL are stupid  or not good at football, but it's clear they aren't where they should be and to me, that falls on the teachers.  

Yeah I agree.  We may not have the most talented oline, but I simply don't believe these guys are stupid.  This is more a coaching issue than a talent issue IMO.  Of course they need better talent, but I don't think they are as bad as they are being made to look.

[Scott7975]

Even Kent Hull made line calls with Jim Kelly behind him.

[ColoradoBills]

5 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

Even Kent Hull made line calls with Jim Kelly behind him.

 

Geez, could you imagine how a 30 year old Kent Hull could help Josh Allen this year!

[billsredneck1]

13 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

TBH, I don't know if I'm with you or not. 

 

Last year, the performance of the OL fell off, but they weren't this incompetent.  This year, it appears to me they are trying to use different techniques more frequently - more cut blocks and pin/pull - that they are not performing effectively.

 

Whether that's on Daboll (the OC) or Castillo (the OL coach and 'run game coordinator'), I can't tell you.  Maybe Daboll insists on this stuff and Castillo goes into Daboll's office, shuts the door, and argues that other techniques would better suit his men than what Daboll demands while Daboll pounds the desk and orders him to coach better so they learn to do it.  Or maybe this is stuff Castillo wanted all along and Dennison kept a lid on him.

 

All I know is, McDermott is the HC and ensuring that a well-prepared team using schemes and techniques that give them the best chance of success takes the field is on him, ultimately.

last year castillo had the title of oline coach and run game coordinator.  last year the run game under the zone blocking scheme stunk ( rico or juan? idk) , before eric and richie explained how they had been successful prior and rico or juan..idk...had to redo.

 

i believe at or before the start of this season,  juan held the same exact title.  again, running game suffering to start off and with the subtractions of richie and eric, there seems to be more confusion/ chaos , WAY more than there should be....even with them gone.

 

juan was here when dabol got hired and i can't see mcd telling dabol, hey if you don't want this guy, by all means hire for yourself.  nah....can't see it.

 

so who and what, is the common denominator here?  billy boy would have them keeping brady clean. me thinks it's positional coaching.

[GreggTX]

The fix is an infux of talent in 2019.