Hogan and Gilly Prove Bills Scouting Superiority

[dave mcbride]

 

 

NE hasn't drafted well in forever.

 

But when you have a good team and are winning........you have less opportunity to draft elite talents early and find and develop "diamonds in the rough"off of the waiver wire......first, because you draft later and second because because you don't get first dibs on players who get released.

This isn't true. In their 2014 and 2015 drafts, they obtained six genuine contributors: Shaq Mason, James White, Trey Flowers (7 sacks last year), Brian Stork, Malcolm Brown, and Jimmy Garrapalo. Garrapalo doesn't start, but he's good. In 2012 and 2013, they drafted Logan Ryan, Chandler Jones, Jamie Collins, and Alonzo Hightower. I'm already up to ten contributors coming to a team that's always pretty stacked.

Edited April 25, 2017 by dave mcbride

[PromoTheRobot]

 

Yup, I ludicrously defend the best-run organization in the NFL. Whereas you...

 

Here's a tissue. Wipe your chin.

[iinii]

Was thinking about this last night....

 

for all of the tar and feather posts....you actually have to be able to FIND the talent nobody else wants in order for other teams to come calling poaching them.

 

What is the patriots player development and retention strategy?

Super Bowl Rings? Play for us and we will make you a champion?

[Success]

 

BB is their GM, so not well.

 

They would have to change their strategy significantly without Brady, but I wouldn't bet against them. They'd switch to a simpler system on offense, probably more run-heavy. They'd still likely be in the hunt every year.

We'll find out soon enough.

 

I used to feel the same way about Shula and the fins. Then the '90's happened.

 

Teams can look invincible until they're not.

[dbflaBill]

I get why you would say that but what kind of long-term strategy could you have when you have to find players for Marrone then Wrex and now McDermott all within just the last 5 years?

 

I get why you would say that but what kind of long-term strategy could you have when you have to find players for Marrone then Wrex and now McDermott all within just the last 5 years?

You don't draft specifically for a coach. It is the GM job to bring in the best players that he can. The coach is getting paid to coach them up and put them into a position to succeed. Should they work together yes, But strictly drafting to a coaches strengths gets you where the bills are today. Gather the talent let the coaches do what they do best. Coach!

[BuffaloMatt]

 

Here's a tissue. Wipe your chin.

HA! Thanks needed that on a rainy Tuesday!

[Boatdrinks]

What is their player development and retention strategy?

Keep your big guys along the DL and OL ( there are exceptions such as Levitre - got way too much FA$ for a Guard) . Pay your star skill positions on O. At CB, draft a guy every 4-5 years to have reasonable salary at that position. The rest can be filled in with lower cost FAs and draft picks. That what it seems like to me, particularly at CB where they almost never pay a big FA deal. You have to have a system and stick to it. In fact, the Pats have a system but have deviated from it in a huge way this year as TB is nearing the end. It's really been a departure for them.

[Coach Tuesday]

HA! Thanks needed that on a rainy Tuesday!

 

Go ahead and act like toddlers instead of responding to substance. But then again, PTR does not watch football, he just defends his crummy favorite team with the vehemence, thuggery and dishonesty of a zealot.

[BuffaloMatt]

 

Go ahead and act like toddlers instead of responding to substance. But then again, PTR does not watch football, he just defends his crummy favorite team with the vehemence, thuggery and dishonesty of a zealot.

That was funny too!

[BillsFan4]

I think Whaley is above average at pro personnel evaluation. That is definitely his strength IMO. If he were our pro personnel director, I think he'd be one of the best in the NFL. As a GM, he has been average to this point, IMO.

 

As for his drafting, I think he is average to good, not great. He has his hits and misses, like every GM, and at times it seems like he is better at evaluating/drafting certain positions compared to others (but that could also be the scouting dept. or a # of other factors, too).

There has been so much constant scheme/coaching change its hard to truly judge his drafting as of now. We've had a ridiculous number of different DC's/OC's/HC's in his time here.

 

 

I do think Whaley is the best the Bills have had in quite a long time, but to be fair that bad isn't set very high.

 

Personally, I would like to see the Bills actually keep the same coaching staff for a good 4-5 years and see what they can build. Bad teams stay bad by constantly firing coaches and changing directions. I think we can almost difinitely say at this point that we know constant upheaval & coaching change doesn't work... It'd be nice to try something new for a change.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

He is the best GM at finding waiver wire and low budget FA's and honestly I don't even think it's close...look at all the productive players we have gotten via that route since he has been here...

This is what complicates Whaley's legacy. He has done great with FA's and waiver wire guys, but has drafted terribly.

[Success]

This is what complicates Whaley's legacy. He has done great with FA's and waiver wire guys, but has drafted terribly.

I would hardly say the drafts have been terrible. Last year's in particular might yield 3-4 starters.

[PromoTheRobot]

 

Go ahead and act like toddlers instead of responding to substance. But then again, PTR does not watch football, he just defends his crummy favorite team with the vehemence, thuggery and dishonesty of a zealot.

 

What I do is challenge groupthink. There is a habit around here to oversimplify things, like the way you fawn over the Patriots because they win. Their drafting has been no better than the Bills the last five years, as was pointed out in another thread. They let good players walk too. They whiff as much as they hit. The big difference is Tom Brady and whatever secret system they use to gain an advantage.

 

You and your fellow gloom-n-doomers hate the Bills. They can't do anything right. We got that the first 12,000 times it's been posted. I hated to see Gilislee go and thought they should have used a 2nd round tender. Bad move by Whaley. But I also give credit to Whaley for finding the players he does. I also recognize what he does is affected by who is coaching, as someone pointed out. What's he supposed to do? Ignore his coaches wishes? (Oh wait, he was accused of that too, wasn't he?)

 

The drumbeat is monotonous.

[AdamK]

In November 2012 Hogan was cut by the Dolphins, Bills pick him up for free in October on a modest contract he contributes although minimally for years here and leaves. The Pats pay an average of 4 million per year for the guy we got for a minimum contract yet Whaley is a moron Hoodie is a genius. In September 2015 Dolphins release Mike Gillislee, Bills pick him up for absolutely nothing get a few years of production and a bunch of touchdowns. He leaves with a replacement already in place. Pats give us a 5th round pick in a crazy deep draft and pay him ten times what we did, Whaley is an idiot Belichick is the second coming. In 2012 The Bills draft S. Gilmore at 10 give him a 4 year 12 million dollar contract. He's a good player that no one would confuse with Richard Sherman, Patrick Peterson, or Revis (maybe now but not in his prime). From 2012-2016 Pats draft 8 DBs, not one of them got anything close to a 5 year 65 million dollar contract but someone did, yup Stephon Gilmore draftee of the "worst GM in the league". Whaley may not be the fav of local media (which I assume is due to the fact that he has something to do with crushing their former sources) or some percentage of fans, but he clearly has some major admirers in New England, and in the front offices of many other NFL teams I'd bet. Be careful what you wish for Bills fans, Whaley is by far the best GM that's been here since Bill Polian and this may be the year he proves to be in the upper 20% if we get 2 or 3 contributors in this draft which is very realistic.

Good post.

It hurts to lose players to the Pats...we all hate them. And it's easy for the talking heads to justify it by saying the Pats are just superior in every way....

but if you're really honest with yourself - Hogan, Gilmore and Gillislee weren't worth that much $ to our team. They didn't represent a good value.

(Gillislee may have been worth the money, but not when you get a 5th round pick in return.)

 

Maybe Whaley should get more credit. He never wanted Rex. He must have know it was a bad personnel fit. He has made some great pickups,but he has some weaknesses - we all do.

I hope he gets and honest chance with Coach Opie.

 

Also, after Father Time catches up with Tom Brady, let's see if "Belichick the Genius" continues his winning ways or rides off into the sunset.

[Coach Tuesday]

 

What I do is challenge groupthink. There is a habit around here to oversimplify things, like the way you fawn over the Patriots because they win. Their drafting has been no better than the Bills the last five years, as was pointed out in another thread. They let good players walk too. They whiff as much as they hit. The big difference is Tom Brady and whatever secret system they use to gain an advantage.

 

You and your fellow gloom-n-doomers hate the Bills. They can't do anything right. We got that the first 12,000 times it's been posted. I hated to see Gilislee go and thought they should have used a 2nd round tender. Bad move by Whaley. But I also give credit to Whaley for finding the players he does. I also recognize what he does is affected by who is coaching, as someone pointed out. What's he supposed to do? Ignore his coaches wishes? (Oh wait, he was accused of that too, wasn't he?)

 

The drumbeat is monotonous.

 

Yes, you're a perfectly objective and neutral commentator who is only out to "challenge the groupthink." What a remarkable coincidence that you always fall on the exact same side of the fan fence.

[KellyToughII]

He is the best GM at finding waiver wire and low budget FA's and honestly I don't even think it's close...look at all the productive players we have gotten via that route since he has been here...

But he can't find a QB

[Mr. WEO]

but not because of their player development and retention strategy

 

The point was that they don't need one, per se. They acquire players based on perceived value. They dump players when the value is waning.

 

It's working for them.

[Madd Charlie]

 

You don't draft specifically for a coach. It is the GM job to bring in the best players that he can. The coach is getting paid to coach them up and put them into a position to succeed. Should they work together yes, But strictly drafting to a coaches strengths gets you where the bills are today. Gather the talent let the coaches do what they do best. Coach!

You definitely bring in different players for different schemes. 4-3 3-4 run heavy offense west coast stuff like that. McDeromott mentioned that he and Whaley work together every day on personnel Wrex said the same and we all remember the rumors about Marrone storming out of the room on the Watkins pick

[NewEra]

If he can hit on a QB and a HC his teams will be much, much better. It's his only downfall imo. He has bolstered the talent level on the team 10 fold since he's been GM. Results aren't there because he hasn't been able to acquire a good qb and HC. We saw how good the defense was under Schwartz. We saw how good Schwartz's defense was in philly last year with a good DL, solid LBs and safeties......not very good. The talent Whaley put together on that team was good enough for a deep playoff run......if he had a qb and a HC. After a couple years of accumulating talent like that, you're bound to lose some of the good players. It's inevitable. We lost some good players this offseason, now he has to fill the holes again. He built up the talent on the team before, I believe he will do it again. But ultimately, he will need to field a good qb and a good HC in order to keep his job imo Hopefully McD is the HC. I doubt TT will ever be the qb, so I hope he can land that qb this year or next or he may get the axe

 

Can't wait to see how the Pats do when Brady retires.

[Santana]

He has a good eye for talent. The roster right now is really very good. I'm actually pretty surprised at how active we've been this offseason.

 

I thought we wouldn't be able to do much given the cap situation, but they did a good job of clearing space and bringing in players for depth.

Yeah they really did, I see sometimes how people get upset but I think Whaley is working with probably the oddest front office in football and that he's definitely not in total control.