NoSaint Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 As PolishDave kinda referenced, you're probably never going to like Taylor because he's never ever going to be Brady or Rivers or Brees. There's always going to be a component of escape ability and improvisation to his game. But the thing is, Aaron Rodgers has proven that even if those components are big parts of your game, you can still be great. No, I'm not saying Taylor is at Rodgers's level or ever will be. I'm saying that you (and others) have in your mind a QB mold that Taylor will absolutely never be, even if he becomes great (which he isn't). Taylor was actually hitting WRs over the middle more consistently (and effectively) in 2016 than 2015. But you say he has to be "INCREDIBLY" consistent. Seems like something he could never achieve. Or if he became "INCREDIBLY" consistent, the bar goes up to "SUPER DUPER INCREDIBLY" consistent. Taylor's not the "pure pocket passer" some want. It doesn't mean a QB with his playing style and skill set can't be great (and again, no, I'm not saying he's great or will be). i love that taylor can move. i think that he needs to be much better from the pocket as that will account for 80+ percent of his production on drop backs. That he gives us the extra 10-20% is fantastic, but until he is better at the core competencies of the game, he will have a ceiling on what he can do for us. i think as is, with the right cast he could get us into the playoffs and even win a few. but i do not think he is the type of QB that can strap a middle of the pack team on his back. if you think that means i dont like him, so be it. to me it just means that we can and should keep an eye out for upgrades if we see an opportunity. if he shows that he can hit the slants, crossing routes, etc... similar to good pocket passers it would be great. i was just pointing out that some people seem to think that implies he physically cant now, not that he needs to make big improvements in that section of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 But is Wilson a pocket passer? I don't think I'd call him that. But he can operate in and around the pocket and he is dangerous as a passer (not just as a runner) outside the pocket when thats the play call or when the play has broken down. He sees more of the field well, throws with anticipation while maintaining accuracy, understands when and knows how to throw with touch and with a little extra when its called for, has outstanding situational and spatial awareness. He is just a much more talented passer. Tyrod does not work the pocket well, does not throw well on the run (unfortunately, because he is tremendously mobile), has poor field vision and spatial awareness, often lacks touch when it is called for. He has a nice long ball but thats about the only time he is consistently in sync with a moving target and thats probably because its the easiest throw to make and requires the least of those aptitudes that good nfl passers posses. I hope that he can turn the corner but I don't think it is going to happen. You have to be naturally endowed with the skills required to be a good passer and as athletically blessed as he is those aptitudes, which to me are more mental/cerebral than physical, are somewhat dead in him. Yes, that is what he has evolved into. Cam Newton, though? Cam Newton operates from the pocket with ease. He is a pocket passer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 Yes, that is what he has evolved into. Cam Newton operates from the pocket with ease. He is a pocket passer. I think you and I both love his added skills, butwant tosee jumps in his core duties. Extending plays and stealing a few first downs with his legs certainly helps cover some of the passing deficiencies but at some point you need a guy that can reliably operate in the pocket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 (edited) Yes, that is what he has evolved into. Cam Newton operates from the pocket with ease. He is a pocket passer. I disagree with both of these statements. Russel Wilson is a great comp for what Taylor can be. Their numbers through 2 years are very close as well. Russ is at his best moving around and out of the pocket. The majority of his big plays are broken plays or him rolling out. Cam is not a great passer by any stretch of the imagination. He has completed more than 60% of his passes 2 out 6 years and none of the last 3. He is at his best wearing defenses down with his size and is improving as a passer but he isn't a pocket passer in my mind. Edited April 25, 2017 by section122 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 I think you and I both love his added skills, butwant tosee jumps in his core duties. Extending plays and stealing a few first downs with his legs certainly helps cover some of the passing deficiencies but at some point you need a guy that can reliably operate in the pocket Agree entirely. TT will make something out of nothing and we will be amazed. But if he can't operate from the pocket consistently, it makes it too easy for the defense. That's just the way it is. Simple geometry, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 I disagree with both of these statements. Russel Wilson is a great comp for what Taylor can be. There numbers through 2 years are very close as well. Russ is at his best moving around and out of the pocket. The majority of his big plays are broken plays or him rolling out. Cam is not a great passer by any stretch of the imagination. He has completed more than 60% of his passes 2 out 6 years and none of the last 3. He is at his best wearing defenses down with his size and is improving as a passer but he isn't a pcoket passer in my mind. Agree 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 Agree 100%. Except for my use of the wrong there lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 I disagree with both of these statements. Russel Wilson is a great comp for what Taylor can be. There numbers through 2 years are very close as well. Russ is at his best moving around and out of the pocket. The majority of his big plays are broken plays or him rolling out. Cam is not a great passer by any stretch of the imagination. He has completed more than 60% of his passes 2 out 6 years and none of the last 3. He is at his best wearing defenses down with his size and is improving as a passer but he isn't a pcoket passer in my mind. Russel Wilson and Cam Newton operate from the pocket and can attack the entire field as a result; their ability to make big plays with their legs notwithstanding; stats notwithstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 Russel Wilson and Cam Newton operate from the pocket and can attack the entire field as a result; their ability to make big plays with their legs notwithstanding; stats notwithstanding. I do not consider Cam to be an anticipation passer. You're describing him like Big Ben but that's not how he plays. He throws jump balls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 I do not consider Cam to be an anticipation passer. You're describing him like Big Ben but that's not how he plays. He throws jump balls. Let's just agree to disagree then. I'm tired of splitting hairs moving goalposts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 Let's just agree to disagree then. I'm tired of splitting hairs moving goalposts. Alright - but my point is that I'm not sure a QB who isn't a pure pocket anticipation passer is DOA. I think you can win with a sandlot guy if you have the right pieces around him and a solid running game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r00tabaga Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 OJ.....HOWARD Bingo ...starting to come around on McCaffery too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 Cam Newton operates from the pocket with ease. He is a pocket passer. What?! C'mon man... no he doesn't, and no he isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 What?! C'mon man... no he doesn't, and no he isn't. You need to pay closer attention. Just because he can escape pressure and make plays with his legs as well, does not mean he isn't a pocket passer. He is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 (edited) You need to pay closer attention. Just because he can escape pressure and make plays with his legs as well, does not mean he isn't a pocket passer. He is. Not all that much more than Taylor is... No "pure pocket passer" will have a completion % as low as Newton consistently does... Edited April 25, 2017 by transplantbillsfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 Shaq Lawson is to Mario as Rosie O is to Jennifer Lawrence. Also the correct answer to question 23 on this years wonderlic test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLFan Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 Alright - but my point is that I'm not sure a QB who isn't a pure pocket anticipation passer is DOA. I think you can win with a sandlot guy if you have the right pieces around him and a solid running game. Agree with this. Everyone wants the perfect QB but they are very few and far between. In the end it comes down to what you can assemble around the QB skills you have. In Taylor's case, clearly a better point defending defense is necessary. The Bills were just no good in that category the past two years. You also need to have an offense that leverages his skills. The running game is not enough. I am of the opinion that the design of the Bills passing offense the past two years did not help him. Let's see what we get this year. The Bills do have weapons and presumably will gain more in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 (edited) Alright - but my point is that I'm not sure a QB who isn't a pure pocket anticipation passer is DOA. I think you can win with a sandlot guy if you have the right pieces around him and a solid running game. But I think that's a lot more volatile a strategy as opposed to a disciplined pocket passer that can run when needed. The qb is the biggest piece in determining how much field is in play at the snap and cam forces the defense sideline to sideline, and 60 yards deep. Tyrod doesn't put as much pressure on a defense to own every inch of a box that big. Cam does run hot and cold in his attention to detail though and it shows in his passing game. There are few qbs that I've seen make throws he seems to make with ease one day, but then the next week you watch and it's all off his back foot and across his body and it gets erratic. He's a unique athlete and case. That said, I think he's better than TT standing in the pocket even with his own inconsistency. Edited April 25, 2017 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted April 26, 2017 Share Posted April 26, 2017 You need to pay closer attention. Just because he can escape pressure and make plays with his legs as well, does not mean he isn't a pocket passer. He is. One could argue Tyrod is more of a pocket passer than Cam Newton is. Tyrod ran a combined 199 times in his last 2 years as a starter. Cam Newton ran a combined 222 times in his last 2 years. Tyrod outgained him though because he is more athletic than Cam Newton. Newton gained 995 yards. Tyrod gained 1148 with less runs. By the way, Tyrod also beat him in passing stats. Tyrod was more accurate - considerably more so. Higher completion percentage. Higher yards per pass. Face it. For as much flak as Tyrod has gotten from Bills "fans" - he has actually been a better player than Cam Newton who is held in such high regard around here. How many people would have guessed that? Weird huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted April 26, 2017 Share Posted April 26, 2017 And the defense: @andy_benoit McDermotts scheme requires front 7 talent, not great CB. So Gilmore allowed to leave. (Same as Norman leaving McDermotts Panthers last yr) #Bills only have one true edge-bender in their pass rush: Jerry Hughes. Thats a problem. Shaq Lawson will have to rely on motor and technique to thrive in NFL. Could he become a nickel DT? So Chad Kelly will be taking over midseason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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