dave mcbride Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I think we agree that it can be a useful metric, but with all due respect, you're just speculating WRT the training these guys might or might not be getting. I would imagine they are all working on their velocity going into the combine, knowing that scouts will be paying attention to it. Yeah, of course I'm speculating, and I also speculate that some of th "athlete" qbs get less training than the rest. But don't surprised if this reflects reality. Hard to say,of course, No the metric is great. The problem is that qbs receive wildly varying training. Measure them 2-3 years into their nfl careers (when they've all received pretty similar training) and then judge. It's a scout's job not just to assess combine velocity, but to project where it might be with the proper training. Velocity in and of itself is hugely important. Plus it's pretty obvious that 55 is good enough -- the equivalent of a 90-91 mph fastball pitcher who succeeds if he "knows how to pitch." Throwing 60 is like one of those 100 mph throwers - if they can't do other things, they end up as mid game relievers. High velocity isn't necessary, but adequate (ie, good) velocity is an absolute requirement. The final chart told me a lot about Connor Cook, who looks like a far worse thrower than i thought he'd be. Jeff - in case you missed my edit, see above. I agree that low 50s is a problem. I also think that good enough (55) is good enough if other tools are there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) Look at that list of the top 25%ile in that article. It's a sad list, some several years into their careers. Velocity didn't help these guys. You're missing the point. The numbers suggest that being able to throw the ball with a lot of velocity doesn't mean you will succeed in the NFL, but NOT being able to do so means you almost certainly won't. Hence the concern about Watson. Edited March 11, 2017 by mannc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 You're missing the point. The numbers suggest that being able to throw the ball with a lot of velocity doesn't mean you will succeed in the NFL, but NOT being able to do so means you almost certainly won't. Hence the concern about Watson. Yup - agree 100 percent. Still need to dig deeper, though, and figure out if there is room for improvement. That's the scouts' job, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Greg Gabriel @greggabe 2h2 hours ago People are trying to make a big deal out of the ball velocity that Watson showed at Indy. Watch the tape. Arm strength is NOT a problem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Greg Gabriel @greggabe 2h2 hours ago People are trying to make a big deal out of the ball velocity that Watson showed at Indy. Watch the tape. Arm strength is NOT a problem! I agree with this. He can easily make every NFL throw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Missing the point Anything that could cause him to slip to our 2nd round pick would be a GOOD thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I agree with this. He can easily make every NFL throw. Making the throw and making it with the same speed as a top NFL QB is the issue. You can draft a baseball pitcher who can "make the throw" to home plate but you might not want to if he throws it at 72 mph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) Making the throw and making it with the same speed as a top NFL QB is the issue. You can draft a baseball pitcher who can "make the throw" to home plate but you might not want to if he throws it at 72 mph. I don't buy it. I've watched Deshaun Watson play numerous times and never before have I thought "this guy doesn't have an NFL calibre arm." He can zip the ball all over the field with ease. Edited March 11, 2017 by jrober38 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I don't buy it. I've watched Deshaun Watson play numerous times and never before have I thought "this guy doesn't have an NFL calibre arm." He can zip the ball all over the field with ease. Someone told me that Watson throws a flutter ball, not a good spiral a few weeks ago. I thought it odd but seeing the MPH validates that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Someone told me that Watson throws a flutter ball, not a good spiral a few weeks ago. I thought it odd but seeing the MPH validates that. Fair enough. I think there are a lot of reasons to not want Watson. Arm strength isn't one of the major ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Fair enough. I think there are a lot of reasons to not want Watson. Arm strength isn't one of the major ones. The flutter ball thing was amusing to me but the MPH is a huge red flag. If I wanted to draft him I would look into it to verify the top speed. Just like a WR can be sick and not run well at the combine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wppete Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Stay Away FROM Watson! Yes this. Mahomes in the 2nd or Webb in the 3rd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real McClappy Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 http://blogs.ourlads.com/2016/03/02/quarterback-ball-velocity-at-nfl-combine-2008-2015/ Interesting. I never actually seen this before. it does appear 55+ is the ideal number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I think Watson can play in the NFL. If this drops him to our pick in the second round, I would be very pleased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real McClappy Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) Watson will never make it in the NFL Nor would Flutie right? I think Watson would be well suited for a dome. Not sure if he can throw through the Lake effect though! I would think it be in the best interest of the Bills to hit 55+ Edited March 11, 2017 by Real McCoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Guy on the Bench Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Yes this. Mahomes in the 2nd or Webb in the 3rd. I like both those guys. But I think we'll get burned by getting too cute with the round (again). If we want Mahomes, I bet we have to take him in the 1st. And if we want Webb, I bet we have to take him in the 2nd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 This is comparable to measuring a pitchers velocity in the bullpen. Velocity during a game is much more important and only really matters on certain throws. The fact that Flacco was only measured at 55 mph tells me all I need to know about these measurements. Flacco probably throws with most velocity of any QB since Elway and Favre. The bullpen comparison is terrible. A pitcher isn't graded on his warm ups, he's graded on pitching live or in a game simulation where he would warm up and then pitch as if he was in a real game. His velocity in those two situations should be the same. What's most concerning about a low velocity at the Combine is that there's no reason a QBs mechanics shouldn't be as perfect as that QB is currently capable of. The more common problem is a great velocity at the Combine where there is no pass rush or distraction due to reading a defense/calling audibles/etc., but seeing a worse velocity in game situations due to a player's mechanics breaking down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 The bullpen comparison is terrible. A pitcher isn't graded on his warm ups, he's graded on pitching live or in a game simulation where he would warm up and then pitch as if he was in a real game. His velocity in those two situations should be the same. What's most concerning about a low velocity at the Combine is that there's no reason a QBs mechanics shouldn't be as perfect as that QB is currently capable of. The more common problem is a great velocity at the Combine where there is no pass rush or distraction due to reading a defense/calling audibles/etc., but seeing a worse velocity in game situations due to a player's mechanics breaking down.Exactly, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 You're missing the point. The numbers suggest that being able to throw the ball with a lot of velocity doesn't mean you will succeed in the NFL, but NOT being able to do so means you almost certainly won't. Hence the concern about Watson. Throwing too hard and not hard enough means your chance at success are low. throwing somewhere in the middle is good. Not a strong indicator therefore. What were Brady and Mannings (either one) speeds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Benjamin AllbrightVerified account @AllbrightNFL Follow More For combine velocity measurement for QBs remember this. Over 55 mph doesnt guarantee success, but under it pretty much guarantees failure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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