Trump and Russia

[3rdnlng]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

In an era where proxy servers are rampant, how does one go about fully vetting who's on the level & who's not?  

 

As DR stated, unless we're willing to give the power to decide what's true & what's not to the government or some corporate actors, really not certain how we reconcile OUR 1st amendment rights w/ cleaning up all fake news (or even just that put out by Russians, Chinese, etc.).  Caveot emptor still seems to be our best protection.

Honest journalism would go a long way in solving this problem.

[Taro T]

49 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

Honest journalism would go a long way in solving this problem.

 

Quite likely.  Not expecting that to be prevalent anytime soon though, unfortunately.

[Tiberius]

36 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

Honest journalism would go a long way in solving this problem.

So the Trump administration is lousy with Russian connections, lies about it and you blame journalist? 

 

 

God Bless the First Amendment and our free press which is doing a GREAT job exposing the Trump connections to Russia. You guys hate the media for telling the truth 

[3rdnlng]

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

So the Trump administration is lousy with Russian connections, lies about it and you blame journalist? 

 

 

God Bless the First Amendment and our free press which is doing a GREAT job exposing the Trump connections to Russia. You guys hate the media for telling the truth 

I didn't think you could embarrass yourself more than you have in the past, but you don't even understand what was being discussed that prompted my comment. Your Russian Crusade is getting old. Even one of your masters, The Huffington Post has taken a step back. One would think that you would feel foolish but without a baseline how would you know?

[Tiberius]

8 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

I didn't think you could embarrass yourself more than you have in the past, but you don't even understand what was being discussed that prompted my comment. Your Russian Crusade is getting old. Even one of your masters, The Huffington Post has taken a step back. One would think that you would feel foolish but without a baseline how would you know?

Dude, it's just getting started. Don't believe your Rush Limbos or whoever it is that tells you what to think, this isn't going away. 

 

And this getting notifications is strange 

[Deranged Rhino]

[Tiberius]

Idiots can't make the story go away either. 

[3rdnlng]

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Dude, it's just getting started. Don't believe your Rush Limbos or whoever it is that tells you what to think, this isn't going away. 

 

And this getting notifications is strange 

Did you even read what I wrote? Everything has to be about your Russian Crusade, doesn't it?

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, 3rdnlng said:

Did you even read what I wrote? Everything has to be about your Russian Crusade, doesn't it?

I replied in part, not in full. 

[3rdnlng]

Just now, Tiberius said:

I replied in part, not in full. 

No, no you didn't, Russian Crusader.

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, 3rdnlng said:

No, no you didn't, Russian Crusader.

Am I?? 

 

 

[K-9]

2 hours ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Respectfully (conversationally, not trying to argue) it's the bolded that alarms me. If I'm reading you right, and I may not be, your solution to the problem (which I agree with you is a problem) still outsources individual responsibility to some other group, either governmental or corporate. Determining whether or not a piece of information is ultimately true should be up to the individual, not some group that curates the information beforehand and pre-labels it true or false. Going down that road we end up in an echo chamber where we are discussing and debating only the ideas which have been pre-verified by silicon valley or whomever is in charge of determining the veracity of the information before it's released wide.

 

The real villain in this Russian propaganda problem is not Russian - not really - it's American. Specifically, the weaknesses in our own education system. We have done a bang up job of dumbing down our population over the past few generations, insulating them, and feeding their bad intellectual habits because that makes us better consumers and easier to control and easier to accept things like mass surveillance and the forfeiture of civil liberties like the 4th and 5th amendments. This is very much a self inflicted wound.

 

That a rival nation tries to expose a self inflicted weakness isn't surprising, and the solution shouldn't be to focus on how to get Russia back either through sanctions or military options - but how to better educate our own population. That solution, however noble, is not one that lends itself to inducing fear in the population and certainly does not serve the foreign policy agenda that's ultimately behind this neo-mccarthyist hysteria.

 

You said it earlier in this thread, we all need to put down the partisan glasses on this issue because ultimately this isn't about left or right, dem or rep, HRC or Trump. This is about what sort of government we really wish to live under. Do we wish to live under a democratic republic where the people actually have a voice in the process? Or do we wish to live in an authoritarian oligarchy where the people do not have a voice in any meaningful way and instead we outsource those decisions to unelected IC officers and the corporations which comprise the MiC. 

Unless and until social media platforms start acting like responsible media outlets, they are not entitled to any 1st Amendment protections. Yes, we have an individual responsibility to parse information and discern its validity but the other side of that equation is on the provider to ensure, to the best of their ability, that what they are publishing is truthful and if it's found not to be, then they have to inform the mislead public, issue a retraction, and own up to the consequence. 

 

I don't blame the issue on ignorant Americans, either. We are not as collectively stupid as you and others may like to believe. That said, the level of social discourse has devolved to a point where we are too easily swayed to think that complete and utter bullschit about any view(s) opposed to our own is automatically true and therefore worth repeating. Some people, as in the case of the bot generated Comet Pizza scandal, are willing to go to violent extremes as a result. 

 

I am not looking at this issue through partisan glasses, simply patriotic glasses. Russia, through their actions and their own government policies, is diametrically opposed to our form of democratic government and the constitutional protections it guarantees. I don't agree for a second that we should lift sanctions or that the new sanctions still waiting to be implemented should be canceled. It is the only thing Putin and his henchmen seem to understand and they've had an impact as evidenced by the desperation they've shown. 

 

Interesting that you describe an authoritarian oligarchy. That's exactly what Russia has become under Putin. I simply don't buy in to the breadth of your conspiracy theory. Yes, there are a few alarming kernels of truth here and there but a lot of it doesn't add up for me at the moment. I need more convincing and I'm confident that will come out. I need ZERO convincing that Russia is a bad actor opposed to our way of life and is run by a Mafia don. 

[K-9]

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

In an era where proxy servers are rampant, how does one go about fully vetting who's on the level & who's not?  

 

As DR stated, unless we're willing to give the power to decide what's true & what's not to the government or some corporate actors, really not certain how we reconcile OUR 1st amendment rights w/ cleaning up all fake news (or even just that put out by Russians, Chinese, etc.).  Caveot emptor still seems to be our best protection.

I'm not suggesting the government clean up all fake news. I'm more or less suggesting that social media platforms need to be reclassified as media reporting outlets if that's how they're going to act and if they expect to benefit from the same 1st amendment protections. 

 

When legitimate media reporting outlets are caught in a lie, they are expected to remedy that by issuing retractions and setting the record straight as part of their civic responsibility to its consumers. Key word being legitimate. Social media providers should be held to the same standard and if they were, I think they'd be more diligent in what gets posted as news and in qualifying what "groups" are legit or not. I understand that may be a huge technological undertaking and perhaps it's even impossible but I'd like to see the effort made. 

[Tiberius]

11 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Unless and until social media platforms start acting like responsible media outlets, they are not entitled to any 1st Amendment protections. Yes, we have an individual responsibility to parse information and discern its validity but the other side of that equation is on the provider to ensure, to the best of their ability, that what they are publishing is truthful and if it's found not to be, then they have to inform the mislead public, issue a retraction, and own up to the consequence. 

 

I don't blame the issue on ignorant Americans, either. We are not as collectively stupid as you and others may like to believe. That said, the level of social discourse has devolved to a point where we are too easily swayed to think that complete and utter bullschit about any view(s) opposed to our own is automatically true and therefore worth repeating. Some people, as in the case of the bot generated Comet Pizza scandal, are willing to go to violent extremes as a result. 

 

I am not looking at this issue through partisan glasses, simply patriotic glasses. Russia, through their actions and their own government policies, is diametrically opposed to our form of democratic government and the constitutional protections it guarantees. I don't agree for a second that we should lift sanctions or that the new sanctions still waiting to be implemented should be canceled. It is the only thing Putin and his henchmen seem to understand and they've had an impact as evidenced by the desperation they've shown. 

 

Interesting that you describe an authoritarian oligarchy. That's exactly what Russia has become under Putin. I simply don't buy in to the breadth of your conspiracy theory. Yes, there are a few alarming kernels of truth here and there but a lot of it doesn't add up for me at the moment. I need more convincing and I'm confident that will come out. I need ZERO convincing that Russia is a bad actor opposed to our way of life and is run by a Mafia don. 

So, what would you propose we do if Russia was, say, paying people to go on message boards to say America is the bad country, that its corrupt and its institutions are rotten? What could be done? 

[TakeYouToTasker]

22 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Unless and until social media platforms start acting like responsible media outlets, they are not entitled to any 1st Amendment protections. Yes, we have an individual responsibility to parse information and discern its validity but the other side of that equation is on the provider to ensure, to the best of their ability, that what they are publishing is truthful and if it's found not to be, then they have to inform the mislead public, issue a retraction, and own up to the consequence. 

 

I don't blame the issue on ignorant Americans, either. We are not as collectively stupid as you and others may like to believe. That said, the level of social discourse has devolved to a point where we are too easily swayed to think that complete and utter bullschit about any view(s) opposed to our own is automatically true and therefore worth repeating. Some people, as in the case of the bot generated Comet Pizza scandal, are willing to go to violent extremes as a result. 

 

I am not looking at this issue through partisan glasses, simply patriotic glasses. Russia, through their actions and their own government policies, is diametrically opposed to our form of democratic government and the constitutional protections it guarantees. I don't agree for a second that we should lift sanctions or that the new sanctions still waiting to be implemented should be canceled. It is the only thing Putin and his henchmen seem to understand and they've had an impact as evidenced by the desperation they've shown. 

 

Interesting that you describe an authoritarian oligarchy. That's exactly what Russia has become under Putin. I simply don't buy in to the breadth of your conspiracy theory. Yes, there are a few alarming kernels of truth here and there but a lot of it doesn't add up for me at the moment. I need more convincing and I'm confident that will come out. I need ZERO convincing that Russia is a bad actor opposed to our way of life and is run by a Mafia don. 

OK, so you actually do wish to implement an official "Ministry of Truth".

 

Because our government is absolutely trustworthy, and should be able to dictate to it's citizens what the truth is, and should be able to punish those who step outside what they have decided are the boundaries, and this is in no way problematic, and certainly doesn't directly jeopardize freedom?

[Deranged Rhino]

35 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Unless and until social media platforms start acting like responsible media outlets, they are not entitled to any 1st Amendment protections. Yes, we have an individual responsibility to parse information and discern its validity but the other side of that equation is on the provider to ensure, to the best of their ability, that what they are publishing is truthful and if it's found not to be, then they have to inform the mislead public, issue a retraction, and own up to the consequence. 

 

I don't blame the issue on ignorant Americans, either. We are not as collectively stupid as you and others may like to believe. That said, the level of social discourse has devolved to a point where we are too easily swayed to think that complete and utter bullschit about any view(s) opposed to our own is automatically true and therefore worth repeating. Some people, as in the case of the bot generated Comet Pizza scandal, are willing to go to violent extremes as a result. 

 

I am not looking at this issue through partisan glasses, simply patriotic glasses. Russia, through their actions and their own government policies, is diametrically opposed to our form of democratic government and the constitutional protections it guarantees. I don't agree for a second that we should lift sanctions or that the new sanctions still waiting to be implemented should be canceled. It is the only thing Putin and his henchmen seem to understand and they've had an impact as evidenced by the desperation they've shown. 

 

Interesting that you describe an authoritarian oligarchy. That's exactly what Russia has become under Putin. I simply don't buy in to the breadth of your conspiracy theory. Yes, there are a few alarming kernels of truth here and there but a lot of it doesn't add up for me at the moment. I need more convincing and I'm confident that will come out. I need ZERO convincing that Russia is a bad actor opposed to our way of life and is run by a Mafia don. 

 

That's all good, I'm not trying to convert you or even convince you (or anyone). Just sharing information for you to go do your own digging on and form your own conclusions. See what holds up and what doesn't. 

 

Though, for the record, I don't believe Americans are ignorant. I believe we have been had. We are the greatest country on the planet - or were before it was stolen from us by unelected groups within the USIC, the MiC, and the financial sectors who have been subverting the constitution for their own benefit for going on 70 years. We no longer live in a democratic republic, we live under an oligarchy. That isn't conspiracy, that's reality. Unless you have millions in the bank to buy a congressman or three, you are not being represented by anyone in Congress or in DC at this time. That's not conspiracy, Citizens United (along with its predecessors) made that reality. We have no say in our foreign policy agendas - as we're seeing with this election. We are trillions in debt as a nation while an additional 21 trillion of our money has been siphoned off and stolen from us. 

 

I'm also not saying we shouldn't sanction Russia or lift the ones we have. I do think you're mistaken if you think the sanctions hurt Putin and his goons more than it hurts the average Russian citizen. Sanctions always hit the people harder than bad actors they're designed to hit. This was made clear in the sanctions of Iraq between wars as well as dozens of other countries.

 

My argument is that a military response to a problem that is fundamentally rooted in our internal failures as a nation cannot be the only solution we discuss. Especially when the evidence clearly shows that we have been intentionally misled by the very intelligence agencies in charge of the investigation - not once, but many, many, MANY times.

 

Since 2012 it's been legal for the USIC and State department to run propaganda campaigns on the American people. The resistance you're feeling internally to some of the darker truths raised by my posts is because you (and all of us) have been conditioned by an intense form of information warfare that originated from our own government. It's painful to realize how deep the deception goes. But the only way through it is to drag it all into the light. 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Deranged Rhino

[DC Tom]

13 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

OK, so you actually do wish to implement an official "Ministry of Truth".

 

So when you're caught reading Breitbart, your Room 101 is 24-7 CNN and MSNBC?

[TakeYouToTasker]

1 minute ago, DC Tom said:

 

So when you're caught reading Breitbart, your Room 101 is 24-7 CNN and MSNBC?

Or vice-versa, depending on who's in power.

 

 

[DC Tom]

3 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

Or vice-versa, depending on who's in power.

 

 

 

Yeah, but since it's K-9's ministry...

 

Either way, though, if you're caught reading Trump's twitterrhea, your Room 101 is...being forced to read Trump's twitterrhea.

Edited November 6, 2017 by DC Tom

[B-Man]

6 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

So when you're caught reading Breitbart, your Room 101 is 24-7 CNN and MSNBC?

 

 

Aaarrgh !  ......................I'll take the rats.