o-line the real problem

[CSBill]

I was looking for some revelation like they are bad because they don't challenge the d line in practice therefore that's why the D is lousey.

 

That would be what Rex says . . . as a matter of fact is 13player Rex--only his wild imagination could come up with the excuse. He fired the OC in week 2, time to blame it all on the o-line now.

[Big Gun]

Tyrod apologists working overtime after win vs browns.

 

Gross.

Yes, a dedicated bunch they are. CoT...CoT...CoT...CoT...CoT..............

[iinii]

The problem is there are way too many arm chair quarterbacks in this forum. I would let YOLO draft a couple of big nasty Big 10 guys and keeping pounding the rock. Since the cap went up, keep Taylor (dance with the Devil you know), hope Jones comes along quickly, draft someone and if there is someone's second or third out there that has a pulse bring them in for a look and roll the dice.

[Big Turk]

 

Pro Football Focus (at least used to) keep a "Time to throw" stat for its premium subscribers. I think if one looks at the stats, one would see that Taylor has one of the longest times.

It is in fact, THE longest...his average time to release on throws is over 3 seconds...an eternity in the NFL

[PolishDave]

It is in fact, THE longest...his average time to release on throws is over 3 seconds...an eternity in the NFL

 

That stat would be useful if they only measured plays where he throws from the pocket. When you have a qb that leaves the pocket (probably the most in the NFL) you are going to have that stat skewed way to the long side. Which then makes it a meaningless stat for judging how good the offensive line is at run blocking. Every time Tyrod leaves the pocket due to pressure, he extends the time to throw by at least 2 seconds on that play. That should be a negative against the offensive line, not a positive.

[GunnerBill]

 

That stat would be useful if they only measured plays where he throws from the pocket. When you have a qb that leaves the pocket (probably the most in the NFL) you are going to have that stat skewed way to the long side. Which then makes it a meaningless stat for judging how good the offensive line is at run blocking. Every time Tyrod leaves the pocket due to pressure, he extends the time to throw by at least 2 seconds on that play. That should be a negative against the offensive line, not a positive.

 

But Dave he flushes out of the pocket when there is time so often. The Cincinnati game I went and broke down the film play by play and he abandoned clean pockets 5 times. The Jacksonville game there was 4 occasions. There was an example against the Steelers where he abandoned a clean pocket straight into a sack from a linebacker who was playing contain. That is Tyrod letting down his blockers not the other way around.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

Remember the Bills averaged 247 yds per game against some of the leagues worst run defenses (CLE,SF,OAK,CIN) and averaged only 107 yds per game against the better run defenses (BAL,NE,PIT,SEA)

I guess that I didn't realize that only the Bills played bad teams? The team that is 2nd is .7 YPC behind them!! That's insanity.

 

EVERYONE PLAYS BAD TEAMS!!! Can we please stop using this irrational thought to rationalize our point? Dallas also played Cleveland, Cincy, and SF. Add in the Bears and that elite run defense in GB and their road has been every bit as easy.

[PolishDave]

 

But Dave he flushes out of the pocket when there is time so often. The Cincinnati game I went and broke down the film play by play and he abandoned clean pockets 5 times. The Jacksonville game there was 4 occasions. There was an example against the Steelers where he abandoned a clean pocket straight into a sack from a linebacker who was playing contain. That is Tyrod letting down his blockers not the other way around.

 

Yeah I know there is some of that. Still doesn't mean the O-line should get extra credit for the extra time he buys by leaving the pocket. The point of this particular discussion is determining whether the o-line is good or not. And that stat is a very misleading stat considering the Bills have a quarterback who is probably near the top of the league if you measure the percentage of pass plays where he leaves the pocket.

[HT02]

It gets tiring to hear year after year our QB sucks and the truth is our qbs have not been great the O-Line is to blame or more so Front offices failure to fix it.

 

The cowboys, The Redskins have young qbs and you know what else they have a great O-Line. We cant draft anymore qbs or running backs until we fix the line, Richie is old, yes he has been great but outside of this year its tough to say and we will need a new LG. Our LT is ok, not the best but for sure ok, our Centre is great but has injury issues and the RT and the RG are horrible.

 

the past 15 years has been bad O-Line after bad O-line and if you put any qb behind this line with the exception of the Brady or big Ben they will fail, so stop trying to address QB before you address the O-Line we need a freaking great o-Line not a good one or serviceable one.

 

Brady and Big Ben are freaks of nature when it comes to releasing the ball, they are so fast they make receivers better, runners better and they never have the same guys on the line, changes year after year, new receivers year after year.

 

If this team is serious about winning overhaul the O-line and start this year by drafting a LT in the first round and Move Cody to the RT, sign the best free agent LG and draft the best RG available in the second round, that allows Cody to help the 2nd rookie on the right and lets the free agent LG help the LT unless you can get 1 more year out of Rickie.

 

make those changes and then draft or sign any qb you want, that line will keep him off the ground, or at least is better poised to.

 

BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT, QB IS NOT THE REAL PROBLEM THE O-LINE IS

We've all seen him making very bad throws and not seeing wide-open wide receivers, that's not the fault of his protection

[Utah John]

There's room for improvement on the right side, but this is not a bad O line. I've been watching the Bills for 55 years, and this is one of the best O lines they've had, even if they're somewhat inconsistent. Do they need to plan ahead for Incognito's eventual departure? Sure. But you can say that about anyone. RI is one of the top players on the team, and Wood isn't far behind. Glenn is better than just pretty good -- I can't remember sacks this year where the LT was the person originally at fault.

 

As far as TT goes, he's good enough to get the Bills into the playoffs, if we could just get defensive coaches who knew what they were doing. We have talent on the D side but they get blown up by O coordinators who are smarter than our D coaches. Which is just about all of them

[Blokestradamus]

I ain't saying, I'm just saying.

 

[thebandit27]

The run blocking is very good for what they're asked to do.

 

The pass blocking is adequate most of the time. Tyrod Taylor is 44th among NFL QBs in time-to-throw:

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/ngs/timetothrow

 

That's got a LOT to do with why the team ranks 31st in sacks allowed and 24th in QB hits per pass attempt.

 

An upgrade at RT would help significantly, but so too would a QB that is willing and able to get rid of the ball in under 3 seconds (which all but 1 other QB in the NFL this season--Landry Jones--is able to do).

[PaattMaann]

I cannot believe this is even a thread.

 

Plan for wood's departure???? He will be playing for the Bills until he retires (which should be about 4 years from now-ish, unless were moronic and let him walk). He is a top 5 center in the NFL.

 

Richie? He is seriously a stud at LG, and will be for the next couple of years.

 

Cordy Glenn is also a very good LT - he gets beat from speed rush about once or twice a game from the eye test, but all LT's get beat once or twice a game (Even Joe Thomas).

 

Miller is in his second year and is great in the run game, and seems to be improving in pass pro, which is surprising given who is next to him at RT and the fact there was a midseason switch at center due to injury.

 

Mills is below average, but I do think he improved the last few games (maybe inferior talent against?), but I would agree he needs to and should be replaced.

 

Groy has been a revelation honestly, and the guy is HUGE - he must be 99% muscle. Great backup at many spots it seems.

 

1 out of 5 needs to be replaced???? Jesus, 30 teams in the NFL would love to have that problem

[Big Gun]

There's room for improvement on the right side, but this is not a bad O line. I've been watching the Bills for 55 years, and this is one of the best O lines they've had, even if they're somewhat inconsistent. Do they need to plan ahead for Incognito's eventual departure? Sure. But you can say that about anyone. RI is one of the top players on the team, and Wood isn't far behind. Glenn is better than just pretty good -- I can't remember sacks this year where the LT was the person originally at fault.

 

As far as TT goes, he's good enough to get the Bills into the playoffs, if we could just get defensive coaches who knew what they were doing. We have talent on the D side but they get blown up by O coordinators who are smarter than our D coaches. Which is just about all of them

So you are saying Tyrod needs a top 5 defense for him to get to the playoffs.

 

No thanks, i'll take the QB who can get to the playoffs with an average defense as teams have average defenses way more than they are elite top 5.

[LabattBlue]

It is in fact, THE longest...his average time to release on throws is over 3 seconds...an eternity in the NFL

Some people just choose to ignore this fact. Either he sucks at reading defenses or he refuses to throw into tight spaces.

 

Either way the experiment should be over.

[PaattMaann]

So you are saying Tyrod needs a top 5 defense for him to get to the playoffs.

 

No thanks, i'll take the QB who can get to the playoffs with an average defense as teams have average defenses way more than they are elite top 5.

 

and there are about 5 QBs in the league that can dominate games and take their teams to the playoffs without any help lol

[Hapless Bills Fan]

This O-line is above average to excellent at run blocking, but just average at pass blocking.

 

The reason the stats tell you Tyrod has so much time to throw is because he extends plays with his legs. How often

do you see him sittng back there comfortably, able to wait for a crossing route to develop or whatever? Not too often.

And I don't think it is just because he has happy feet. The pocket often collapses fast.

 

(Not saying it's all on the line and not Taylor. He has a lot to improve on, obviously, and a good number of sacks are due to him

holding onto the ball too long or running but not making it back to the line of scrimmage.)

 

But, I do agree that we should be investing in the O-line. We should definitely be looking for a center to take over for Eric

when he is done (which is probably not far off) or due to injury. Not sure about Groy yet. Ritchie probably has at least two

more years of solid play in him. Glenn is probably above average, but not top of the heap. Miller seems to be getting there,

but I haven't paid enough attention to him to know for sure. And we obviously will want to upgrade the RT position.

 

So, I would be all for investing in some big, nasty O-linemen to either come in and start or to groom to replace guys in the

near future. We have a good line that can make things happen especially in the run game, but I would definitely be up for

a couple of better pass blockers (and some serious coaching in that area).

 

OL is certainly a place where continued investment is needed.

 

It's also true that Taylor extends plays with his legs, but the Eyeball Test says he's usually getting enough pocket - one can usually count (snap) One potato Two potato Three potato before he starts scrambling.

There are also still times when he could step up into the pocket and find a throwing lane, but he choses to roll out and run.

[thebandit27]

I cannot believe this is even a thread.

 

Plan for wood's departure???? He will be playing for the Bills until he retires (which should be about 4 years from now-ish, unless were moronic and let him walk). He is a top 5 center in the NFL.

 

Richie? He is seriously a stud at LG, and will be for the next couple of years.

 

Cordy Glenn is also a very good LT - he gets beat from speed rush about once or twice a game from the eye test, but all LT's get beat once or twice a game (Even Joe Thomas).

 

Miller is in his second year and is great in the run game, and seems to be improving in pass pro, which is surprising given who is next to him at RT and the fact there was a midseason switch at center due to injury.

 

Mills is below average, but I do think he improved the last few games (maybe inferior talent against?), but I would agree he needs to and should be replaced.

 

Groy has been a revelation honestly, and the guy is HUGE - he must be 99% muscle. Great backup at many spots it seems.

 

1 out of 5 needs to be replaced???? Jesus, 30 teams in the NFL would love to have that problem

 

I'm not quite as sold on Wood's longevity as you are Paatt; I think he's probably got 2 years left in him if this run scheme is kept in place.

 

Glenn is a solid LT and is under contract, so I'm happy at LT.

 

Miller has come along nicely, but I don't know that he's going to go much further. His career arc is right as I expected: first-year starter who makes a big jump in year 2, but is probably at his ceiling soon after. Not that that's a bad thing, since they have him for 2 more seasons after 2016.

 

We all agree that RT needs to be upgraded, and I'm totally fine if the plan is to play Kouandjio at LT and Glenn at RT next year. Glenn won't complain since he's already been paid, and can easily move back to LT after 2017, which leaves time to upgrade the RT spot by investing a mid-round pick in a guy that can develop.

 

The spot that needs some future planning is Richie. I think he's been their least-effective interior lineman this year, a significant step back from 2015. It happens sometimes, but I would really like to see a guy get groomed to take over in 2018, when Richie's contract can be dumped with very little dead money.

[PolishDave]

I ain't saying, I'm just saying.

 

 

Awesome chart! Bills are definitely good at running the ball.

 

Do you have one for pass protection?

 

Based on these links, I think the pass protection chart might be a bit ugly - probably a lot uglier than people think

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&role=TM&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_SACKS_ALLOWED

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/nfls-best-worst-lines-cowboys-seahawks-rank/story?id=44212949

 

I'd really love to see a chart that ranked teams by percentage of QB pressures - ratio of total number of QB pressures to total number of pass plays. I think that would be the most accurate stat for offensive line pass protection performance. Still wouldn't account for qb influence, schemes and number of blitzes, but I think it would get about as close as you can to an overall pass protection measurement.

Edited December 22, 2016 by PolishDave

[PaattMaann]

I'm not quite as sold on Wood's longevity as you are Paatt; I think he's probably got 2 years left in him if this run scheme is kept in place.

 

Glenn is a solid LT and is under contract, so I'm happy at LT.

 

Miller has come along nicely, but I don't know that he's going to go much further. His career arc is right as I expected: first-year starter who makes a big jump in year 2, but is probably at his ceiling soon after. Not that that's a bad thing, since they have him for 2 more seasons after 2016.

 

We all agree that RT needs to be upgraded, and I'm totally fine if the plan is to play Kouandjio at LT and Glenn at RT next year. Glenn won't complain since he's already been paid, and can easily move back to LT after 2017, which leaves time to upgrade the RT spot by investing a mid-round pick in a guy that can develop.

 

The spot that needs some future planning is Richie. I think he's been their least-effective interior lineman this year, a significant step back from 2015. It happens sometimes, but I would really like to see a guy get groomed to take over in 2018, when Richie's contract can be dumped with very little dead money.

Fair points all the way around. I think wood has more than 2 but that's all just conjecture at this point. I wouldn't disagree about Mills. And as far as Richie is concerned - he has had up and down games, and has had uncertainty next to him a little bit with center spot. He has not been a train wreck (not that you say he is).

 

My main point was we are in good shape going into next year with an upgrade at RT - but this is an above average unit and is not our main problem on this team. As far as planning for the future absolutely but, you can only fill so many holes in an offseason and we have a lot of potential holes